WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
I just read the first page and the 18th page. Holy smokes is this a political labor market! Where I come from, you see a job you want, you apply for the job, no one cares. On this forum of course 91% of everyone hates Swoop pilots but I think more than 9% of people who don't work as pilots would see where they're coming from.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
So, where you come from, if employees have a written agreement that they cannot outsource their work but the company does anyway, nobody cares?duele wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:59 pm I just read the first page and the 18th page. Holy smokes is this a political labor market! Where I come from, you see a job you want, you apply for the job, no one cares. On this forum of course 91% of everyone hates Swoop pilots but I think more than 9% of people who don't work as pilots would see where they're coming from.
Sure, Americans are known for their easy going nature!
I have noticed that you’re quickly making a name for yourself on here, hint it’s not for your intellect:)
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
mbav8r, most places in the world do not have a written agreement that the employer can't outsource work. Maybe you will find some communist nations that still do this. As for most of the rest, they have embraced the free market and concept of meritocracy.mbav8r wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:54 pmSo, where you come from, if employees have a written agreement that they cannot outsource their work but the company does anyway, nobody cares?duele wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:59 pm I just read the first page and the 18th page. Holy smokes is this a political labor market! Where I come from, you see a job you want, you apply for the job, no one cares. On this forum of course 91% of everyone hates Swoop pilots but I think more than 9% of people who don't work as pilots would see where they're coming from.
Sure, Americans are known for their easy going nature!
I have noticed that you’re quickly making a name for yourself on here, hint it’s not for your intellect:)
And people wonder why Canadian Aviation is the worst in the modern world.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Would you believe that I finished uni with a GPA in the top 3 of the school? I'm just here to ruffle your feathers mbav8r. I'm a dual citizen but have lived my whole life in Canada so your American jab missed the mark. By "where I come from" I was referring to my career/industry where the labour market runs on the free market principles of supply and demand.mbav8r wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:54 pmSo, where you come from, if employees have a written agreement that they cannot outsource their work but the company does anyway, nobody cares?duele wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:59 pm I just read the first page and the 18th page. Holy smokes is this a political labor market! Where I come from, you see a job you want, you apply for the job, no one cares. On this forum of course 91% of everyone hates Swoop pilots but I think more than 9% of people who don't work as pilots would see where they're coming from.
Sure, Americans are known for their easy going nature!
I have noticed that you’re quickly making a name for yourself on here, hint it’s not for your intellect:)
There is a reason why one of the most talented poets of our time, Mr. 305 aka Mr. Worldwide doesn't write about the importance of unions instead of hard work and opportunity. I think Mr. Worldwide would have easily sided with Swoop on this one.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:13 am
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Hold on there slick! If there is a written agreement that the work can't be outsourced, then why on earth would ALPA, with all of its resources and legal know how, not have filed an unfair labour practice complaint?So, where you come from, if employees have a written agreement that they cannot outsource their work but the company does anyway, nobody cares?
Sure, Americans are known for their easy going nature!
I have noticed that you’re quickly making a name for yourself on here, hint it’s not for your intellect:)
Perhaps the issue is not as simple as you make it seem.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Surely you are not ignorant enough to be implying that ALPA is responsible for the wishy washy language in the WJPA document, are you?WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:13 amHold on there slick! If there is a written agreement that the work can't be outsourced, then why on earth would ALPA, with all of its resources and legal know how, not have filed an unfair labour practice complaint?So, where you come from, if employees have a written agreement that they cannot outsource their work but the company does anyway, nobody cares?
Sure, Americans are known for their easy going nature!
I have noticed that you’re quickly making a name for yourself on here, hint it’s not for your intellect:)
Perhaps the issue is not as simple as you make it seem.
We were all assured by individuals in the WJPA in the past that the language in our pilot working conditions document was sufficient and prevented WestJet from doing exactly what they have done with Swoop. Clearly that assurance was false. Perhaps try placing the blame where it actually belongs instead of being blinded by your obvious hatred of all things ALPA and of unions in general.
I would tell you to go take a long walk off a short pier but you may take that a little too much to heart.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:13 am
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
It might come as a surprise to you, but I don’t blame ALPA for the current state of affairs. No sir, ALPA is blameless. The people I hold responsible are the members of the WJ organizing committee and every WJ pilot who voted in favour of certification. Those people, well, they got what they deservedl...a black and white relationship.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:57 amSurely you are not ignorant enough to be implying that ALPA is responsible for the wishy washy language in the WJPA document, are you?WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:13 amHold on there slick! If there is a written agreement that the work can't be outsourced, then why on earth would ALPA, with all of its resources and legal know how, not have filed an unfair labour practice complaint?So, where you come from, if employees have a written agreement that they cannot outsource their work but the company does anyway, nobody cares?
Sure, Americans are known for their easy going nature!
I have noticed that you’re quickly making a name for yourself on here, hint it’s not for your intellect:)
Perhaps the issue is not as simple as you make it seem.
We were all assured by individuals in the WJPA in the past that the language in our pilot working conditions document was sufficient and prevented WestJet from doing exactly what they have done with Swoop. Clearly that assurance was false. Perhaps try placing the blame where it actually belongs instead of being blinded by your obvious hatred of all things ALPA and of unions in general.
I would tell you to go take a long walk off a short pier but you may take that a little too much to heart.
See the thing is, you fail to understand that the terms of the last WJPA agreement may well have been defensible in a competent court. I’m unsure of that one, and argued in numerous venues starting around the time of the WPPA organization attempt (the group with the purloined ‘industry leading’ constitution) that the agreement was not legally defensible. PY and company maintained and I know they were sincere and had legal advice that it was. But the more important piece was that no leader at WJ was ever going to knowingly violate an agreement. It would have led to certification as employees sought certainty of work terms. But as I said, we had that certainty. And we had a good relationship with management...
With certification, any gentlemen’s agreement, even if that’s all we had, was gone. Immediately the relationship was governed by the Canada Labour Code, and only by that Code. No longer was there a civil court remedy to alleged violations of the agreement. The one and only remedy was an Unfair Labour Practice Complaint. Period. It wouldn’t matter the wording of any agreement. As long as the company didn’t violate the terms of the Statutory Freeze imposed by certification, the company was free to manage its affairs.
So you see, it is the WJ pilots themselves who are responsible for the OTS pilots at Swoop. Pat yourselves on the back for that one.
Attached is screenshot of a post by a now LEC member who talked to the President of ALPA and received assurances that WJ pilots could decide what they wanted with respect to a seniority list because frankly, anything prior to certification didn’t matter. As an aside, I disagree with the info passed along. I am that “one” person, that lonely sober voice in the wilderness educating the masses of the contents of the ALPA Constitution and of ALPA Executive Board policy, which MEC’s and all members are bound to follow.
- Attachments
-
- C89E18EE-DE02-4B36-A661-F97FB0D84409.jpeg (568.75 KiB) Viewed 4520 times
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Holy squirrel dude, how many times are you going to trot out this drivel?WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:24 pmIt might come as a surprise to you, but I don’t blame ALPA for the current state of affairs. No sir, ALPA is blameless. The people I hold responsible are the members of the WJ organizing committee and every WJ pilot who voted in favour of certification. Those people, well, they got what they deservedl...a black and white relationship.FL410AV8R wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:57 amSurely you are not ignorant enough to be implying that ALPA is responsible for the wishy washy language in the WJPA document, are you?WeedPro2000 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:13 am
Hold on there slick! If there is a written agreement that the work can't be outsourced, then why on earth would ALPA, with all of its resources and legal know how, not have filed an unfair labour practice complaint?
Perhaps the issue is not as simple as you make it seem.
We were all assured by individuals in the WJPA in the past that the language in our pilot working conditions document was sufficient and prevented WestJet from doing exactly what they have done with Swoop. Clearly that assurance was false. Perhaps try placing the blame where it actually belongs instead of being blinded by your obvious hatred of all things ALPA and of unions in general.
I would tell you to go take a long walk off a short pier but you may take that a little too much to heart.
See the thing is, you fail to understand that the terms of the last WJPA agreement may well have been defensible in a competent court. I’m unsure of that one, and argued in numerous venues starting around the time of the WPPA organization attempt (the group with the purloined ‘industry leading’ constitution) that the agreement was not legally defensible. PY and company maintained and I know they were sincere and had legal advice that it was. But the more important piece was that no leader at WJ was ever going to knowingly violate an agreement. It would have led to certification as employees sought certainty of work terms. But as I said, we had that certainty. And we had a good relationship with management...
With certification, any gentlemen’s agreement, even if that’s all we had, was gone. Immediately the relationship was governed by the Canada Labour Code, and only by that Code. No longer was there a civil court remedy to alleged violations of the agreement. The one and only remedy was an Unfair Labour Practice Complaint. Period. It wouldn’t matter the wording of any agreement. As long as the company didn’t violate the terms of the Statutory Freeze imposed by certification, the company was free to manage its affairs.
So you see, it is the WJ pilots themselves who are responsible for the OTS pilots at Swoop. Pat yourselves on the back for that one.
Attached is screenshot of a post by a now LEC member who talked to the President of ALPA and received assurances that WJ pilots could decide what they wanted with respect to a seniority list because frankly, anything prior to certification didn’t matter. As an aside, I disagree with the info passed along. I am that “one” person, that lonely sober voice in the wilderness educating the masses of the contents of the ALPA Constitution and of ALPA Executive Board policy, which MEC’s and all members are bound to follow.
-
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4562
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Out of curiosity, does anyone know where Encore pilots fit into this mess?
This is from 2 months ago, but shouldn't any unfilled Swoop spots be offered to Encore pilots before they go OTS?Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
#403 Post by Rezy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:30 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:41 am
Just saw a fresh ad on indeed.ca today for Swoop FOs. What’s the deal with that?
Arbitrator stated WJ could open the Swoop ad on June 12 in case no pilots bid the position, that would allow Swoop to hire OTS - only if the positions are not filled internally. Clear as day in the Interim Order. This was expected weeks ago.
---------- ADS -----------
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Wow.
I don't know for sure but I'm guessing your medical benefits plan covers some form of anger management. You should probably avail yourself.
Maybe ego management too.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
The Swoop spots are being offered to Encore pilots before it goes OTS. It’s been that way since the middle of June. I don’t believe we can bid on the Captain bypass positions though.co-joe wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:04 am Out of curiosity, does anyone know where Encore pilots fit into this mess?
This is from 2 months ago, but shouldn't any unfilled Swoop spots be offered to Encore pilots before they go OTS?Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
#403 Post by Rezy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:30 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:41 am
Just saw a fresh ad on indeed.ca today for Swoop FOs. What’s the deal with that?
Arbitrator stated WJ could open the Swoop ad on June 12 in case no pilots bid the position, that would allow Swoop to hire OTS - only if the positions are not filled internally. Clear as day in the Interim Order. This was expected weeks ago.
---------- ADS -----------
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
From the Encore side, let’s just say that we are playing with the cards that we are dealt.co-joe wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:04 am Out of curiosity, does anyone know where Encore pilots fit into this mess?
This is from 2 months ago, but shouldn't any unfilled Swoop spots be offered to Encore pilots before they go OTS?Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
#403 Post by Rezy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:30 am
JohnnyHotRocks wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:41 am
Just saw a fresh ad on indeed.ca today for Swoop FOs. What’s the deal with that?
Arbitrator stated WJ could open the Swoop ad on June 12 in case no pilots bid the position, that would allow Swoop to hire OTS - only if the positions are not filled internally. Clear as day in the Interim Order. This was expected weeks ago.
---------- ADS -----------
Somebody that makes a little more than me decides how many of our guys they want to let flow to swoop/mainline, and it doesn’t always line up with the open spots as they come up.
Another shyte mess is the many friends of mine that want to bid for spot as captain at swoop from encore, because of their previous time on type (73 and on bigger Boeings). But alas, that is no option for us. Flow to an FO spot it is, when ever they feel like sending us.
We are keeping our heads up, hopefully the flood gates of WJ will open by late next year. Nevertheless, the flood gates of AC will.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:32 am
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
What is happening at Swoop these days? I saw through social media that an acquaintance of mine, a Captain at Encore, is headed to Swoop.
Are all Swoop positions being filled internally now through Encore and WS mainline? Since the arbitration began, has there been any changes in the pay or working conditions? Are guys being paid at the WS rate or still the abysmal pay that was announced originally?
Cheers.
Are all Swoop positions being filled internally now through Encore and WS mainline? Since the arbitration began, has there been any changes in the pay or working conditions? Are guys being paid at the WS rate or still the abysmal pay that was announced originally?
Cheers.
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Isn’t 1 September when the arbitrator gives his determination?
- CaptainHaddock
- Rank 4
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:22 am
- Location: Nowhere fast
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Sept 9th is the last day of scheduled mediated bargaining. After that the mediator will decide on outstanding issues. ‘The WestJet Group’ has recently applied for a more formal arbitration process though that could slow the process down somewhat. It’s the same arbitrator though regardless of the process used. So the ruling may be later September, or even October now depending on if he lets them use the more formal process.
Billions of Bilious Blue Blistering Barnacles!
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
They did not apply... The company stated they May elect to do the formal process.
- CaptainHaddock
- Rank 4
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:22 am
- Location: Nowhere fast
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought it was ultimately up to Mr. Kaplan if they are able to or not.
Billions of Bilious Blue Blistering Barnacles!
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Your correct. But the company would have to apply first which would probably happen on the 7th then Kaplan decides ya or nay. Then company can appeal if Kaplan denies it. More time goes by. Well shall see this weekend how it goes. This formal process is foreign to me except what Alpa mec has said which is where I got the info from.
Hope it’s done soon.
Hope it’s done soon.
- CaptainHaddock
- Rank 4
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:22 am
- Location: Nowhere fast
Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft
Oh, thanks for the clarification. Hopefully this gets wound up sooner than later.
Billions of Bilious Blue Blistering Barnacles!