WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

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Fanblade
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Fanblade »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:08 am I am not condoning or condemning anyone who chose to go to Swoop. I do however like to try to see both sides of the coin so I will offer this up....
If WJ were to fold tomorrow, and AC offered DEC spots to former WJ captains, how many would reject the offer because they didn’t want to jump the line in front of those hundreds of AC FOs?
Just a thought.
Never happen. Every single person on property gets a shot at those positions before anyone OTS.

If we what you suggest was attempted their would be all out war.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

I recall DEC at AC prior to 911
And the question wasn’t how would AC pilots react, the question was, hypothetically of course, would WJ pilots take DEC jobs or would they turn it down because they felt it was morally wrong?
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eyebrow737
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:27 pm I recall DEC at AC prior to 911
And the question wasn’t how would AC pilots react, the question was, hypothetically of course, would WJ pilots take DEC jobs or would they turn it down because they felt it was morally wrong?
According to the morals of most of the people on these threads, if westjet were to go under tomorrow and a Captain was given the choice of DEC or bottom of the FO list and wait for 10 years for an upgrade... Even though they had already been in command and waited 10 years at westjet for that upgrade...

Well according to these guys they would never think of the hard work they have already put into their career, the years of experience they have built and they would elect to go behind a 22 year old FO with 500 hours.

That's the way they explain it, but some how I feel if they were in that position, their morals would take a step back for at least until checking the line.
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altiplano
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by altiplano »

DEC only existed because those on the property weren't taking it...

We have a chance, up to 6 times a year, to bid on seats that need filling... if something is being offered to new hires, it's because it's not being filled... if it was offered to a new hire and they wanted it then good for them, THEY SHOULD TAKE IT and everyone here would just say "wow, crazy times!"... they're joining here and that's within the deal, they aren't taking it from anyone... it's not morally wrong....

... and hypothetically, if a new hire for DEC and they get trained ahead of someone senior that does want it and bid it, then that person gets paid the Captain rate from the day the junior guy checks out.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

It is a tough question to answer when you are really being honest with yourself
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by .80@410 »

If you are going to make comparisons you could actually make apples to apples ones that made sense.

What part of "any Captain positions would have been offered in house before OTS hires" is so tough to comprehend ? Oh and Same pay too.

Your attempted comparisons are beyond idiotic.

An actual scenerio would be AC Starts "Stink" airlines and offers it to OTS hires before mainline or Rouge pilots, at 60% of the current wages. See the difference to your made-up ones ?

Jeez. Could you please proof read your posts for some semblance of reality before posting dribble trying to justify your POV ?
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK!
LoL
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by FICU »

eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:31 am You think wrong. I know a few of the captains and they were all widebody captains flying overseas for big airlines. Some are even ACPs. I also believe a number may have been captains at AC express feeders.
I said "most" you said "a few".
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by FICU »

eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:31 am You think wrong. I know a few of the captains and they were all widebody captains flying overseas for big airlines. Some are even ACPs. I also believe a number may have been captains at AC express feeders.
I said "most" you said "a few". :)
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

.80@410 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:04 pm If you are going to make comparisons you could actually make apples to apples ones that made sense.

What part of "any Captain positions would have been offered in house before OTS hires" is so tough to comprehend ? Oh and Same pay too.

Your attempted comparisons are beyond idiotic.

An actual scenerio would be AC Starts "Stink" airlines and offers it to OTS hires before mainline or Rouge pilots, at 60% of the current wages. See the difference to your made-up ones ?

Jeez. Could you please proof read your posts for some semblance of reality before posting dribble trying to justify your POV ?
Run along now little one. Let the Captains talk.
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Last edited by eyebrow737 on Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

FICU wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:41 pm
FICU wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:41 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:31 am You think wrong. I know a few of the captains and they were all widebody captains flying overseas for big airlines. Some are even ACPs. I also believe a number may have been captains at AC express feeders.
I said "most" you said "a few". :)

I only know a few ;-)
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?
You will not get an honest answer to this
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Rezy »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:33 pm
eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?
You will not get an honest answer to this


This is not at all a fair comparison and that’s why you don’t get it.
No one applied to Swoop because their company folded.
You don’t mention that the “other” airline was in a labor dispute.

The reason this is an issue is because Swoopsters took advantage of an ongoing labor dispute.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

Rezy wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:36 pm This is not at all a fair comparison and that’s why you don’t get it.
No one applied to Swoop because their company folded.
You don’t mention that the “other” airline was in a labor dispute.
The reason this is an issue is because Swoopsters took advantage of an ongoing labor dispute.
Thought not. Anyone else got the cajones to answer the question to answer the question being honest with themselves?
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Diadem »

eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?
Honestly, if I were in that situation, I probably would try to get a DEC spot if one were available. But I'm not, and neither are you. What airline, exactly, laid you off? What set of circumstances forced you to find a new job in this environment?
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Fanblade »

eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

In 2004, the lowest point in AC’s CCAA, WJ had many AC pilots resumes on file. I know because I was one of them. Yup it would suck to have started over again. But it does happen. I wouldn’t have been the first and certainly not the last.

I don’t remember any C3 folk trying to jump the que either and that collapse happened at the start of a bad recession.

This is simple. Get in line. If you picked the wrong line because the cashier was slow....too bad. Wait it out or go to the back of another line.

If you don’t ever go to the back of the line? You will never reach the front.

In this industry if you get in line your progress is slow. If you don’t get in line your progress is usually zero.

The better the job the slower the progression.

Refusing to get in line and then complaining about your progress?

Fools game
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

Diadem wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:36 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?
Honestly, if I were in that situation, I probably would try to get a DEC spot if one were available. But I'm not, and neither are you. What airline, exactly, laid you off? What set of circumstances forced you to find a new job in this environment?
Personally I wouldn't go to swoop or westjet for any reason, but I have made my views on that clear.

Good on you for being honest.

There may be some people that have made that decision for reasons you have, maybe returning from overseas maybe because they did lose a job somewhere.

Whatever the reason, life is not black or white, evil or good. Some of the people turning into that on these forums are nothing but pawns of the system in my opinion.

Turning it into an us vs them, is the problem with the whole union solution. For some of us that have worked overseas can see that, maybe some of you who were there 10 years ago at westjet might also remember that.
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by eyebrow737 »

Fanblade wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:15 am
eyebrow737 wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:02 pm So the question remains. Since we are talking about morals and the high and mighty attitude of Westjet pilots, most that have never worked anywhere else before except for a single piston.

If Westjet went bankrupt tomorrow, and another airline offered WJ captains DEC bypassing many qualified FO's.

With a family to support and bills to pay, would you take it?

Or would you go to the back of the line, earn close to minimum wage and be behind FO's 30 years your junior wasting years of experience and knowledge and wait 10 years for an upgrade

I mean we must think of the common good now.

'Would you?

In 2004, the lowest point in AC’s CCAA, WJ had many AC pilots resumes on file. I know because I was one of them. Yup it would suck to have started over again. But it does happen. I wouldn’t have been the first and certainly not the last.

I don’t remember any C3 folk trying to jump the que either and that collapse happened at the start of a bad recession.

This is simple. Get in line. If you picked the wrong line because the cashier was slow....too bad. Wait it out or go to the back of another line.

If you don’t ever go to the back of the line? You will never reach the front.

In this industry if you get in line your progress is slow. If you don’t get in line your progress is usually zero.

The better the job the slower the progression.

Refusing to get in line and then complaining about your progress?

Fools game
Were you an FO, applying for an FO position? Not much of a sacrifice there, hell you might even have got a pay rise. 20 year captain, to turboprop FO, that's a different story.

Plenty of C3, Zoom, Canjet captains went direct entry to each one of those airlines, and moved on direct entry to others including Cargojet or overseas. The queue rules are hardly universal and mostly only apply here in North America and some Legacy airlines depending on availability (Qantas were hiring DEC as in 2008-09). I worked for over 20 years in a number of overseas going captain to captain. I won't be surprised if Sunwing or AT start hiring DEC in the near future.

Just because they are your rules, does that mean really everyone in the world should abide by them? Morally, I know if you were command and offered command at westjet you would have taken it. To say otherwise is asinine
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Re: WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

Post by Legacy »

True, eyebrow, when the current FOs don’t qualify for the left seat. But at this time this is the way it’s in Canada. Don’t go comparing us to overseas. Otherwise you are just cherry picking. We would be making $$ like they do overseas according to your argument. Hey I see your point. Seniority has huge flaws in our system. But we did it to ourselves. IMHO there should be a matrix pay. You get so much $$ for PIC, so much for heavy time, etc. Screw seniority when it comes to pay for starters. It has handcuffed us pilots in North America for so long. If you know you can jump ship and go to AC and take zero pay cut or visa versa it I’m all for it. Would give the execs a lot less bargaining power too knowing you can just say “see ya”. That’s just starters where seniority hurts us. But you want to change the way things are done in North America? Fill yer boots convincing everyone else. Until then, I’d suggest continuing with how it’s done in here.
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