WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[confusedalot]

Oh boy, it has been asserted that Canada 3000 had a pilot union and all of the complications were revolving around that.

Sorry to be so obvious. Canada 3000 never had a union. I worked there. It is an interesting situation to witness history being rewritten by those that have no clue. Human nature is indeed an interesting animal.

Now, in my myopic and old view of the world, seems to me that swoop is nothing more than a competitive knee jerk reaction to rouge. Somehow, by reading this thread, the astute airplane drivers have determined that swoop is a tactic to lower pilot wages and have nothing to do with real world competition.

Way back when old farts like me started to fly when they were young, there were numerous future choices as far as airline operators were concerned. And that was IF you wanted to commit yourself to that particular segment of aviation. There was sooo......much more going on, depending on your situation, sometimes it was not worth even taking an airline job. What a heretical thought process, right? As heinous and as it sounds, big red was not the be all and end all, sure it was a big company, just like the post office.

And fast forward to 2018, everyone is clamouring to be like big red. You want the mainline conditions, but forget that you just may end up with rouge conditions. That fantastic world of huge money and huge pensions for life in legacy air canada is....GONE........

Then I see the Westjet pilots. The income levels are not exactly poverty wages, to say the least. I never made that kind of money. Not even when I was an expat for 3 years. Yet, seems like they want conditions that no longer exist anymore at big red.

I am certainly not advocating that westjet will disappear because of the current troubles. I do however find that many in the industry do not appreciate the hard facts of operating a complex system in a very cutthroat business sector.

Bottom line, this old fart who is not even in the business any longer is somewhat concerned about seeing this country end up with mapleflot as the sole provider of airline services. For the most dumbest of reasons. But hey, old news, was born of eastern european parents who fled the place because of autocratic and totalitarian systems who had total control over everyone.............I guess I have a problem.

[Diadem]

I can't tell if this is master level maneuver by management. Everyone here is patting them self on the back for accepting a B-scale.

From the info that's been released, there hasn't been an agreement on wages. It doesn't sound to me like the MEC agreed to anything other than mediation and arbitration in exchange for Swoop flying being brought in-house; that is to say, the only thing that was given up to have Swoop flying done by WestJet was the possibility of a strike. In exchange for taking labour action off the table, management conceded on who will be doing the Swoop flying. WAWCON is still to be negotiated, and nothing else, as far as we can tell, has been given up by the pilots, so I really have a hard time buying that this was some coup de grace by management. On the contrary, it seems like the company made a huge concession to avoid disrupting flights.

[FenceSitter]

It looks to me like the pilots accepted the best possible scenario with a very real possibility of the airline being shut down out of spite by CB and his hand-picked board (so I've heard).
CB hates listening so.much that he was willing to direct the company to cause great losses to the shareholders just to maintain his control. I would almost wager that the hard game he played will cause his loss of position at some point in the near future. It will be covered up with age or health or something convenient along those lines but CB just blew all the good face he had...it's just a matter of time before he is shown the same door he has shown so many others.

[GRK2]

"Canada 3000 never had a union. I worked there."

Now THAT'S the biggest whopper I've seen in days! I don't believe you did work there...simply because of your statement. Whatever else you might claim is now simply BS, plain and simple.

I DID work there. Right. Until. The. End.

Now, sorry about the drift. Fingers crossed for all you WS boys n girls who are making things happen.

[atphat]

I’m not sure anyone here understands what went on. Lol. It’s not a B scale. It’s one set of working conditions. If it’s a B scale at Swoop it’ll be a B scale at Mainline. i.e if it moves to reserve or 18 days worked, it’ll be the same at both WJ and Swoop.

If the WJ pilot group was willing to accept a B scale to fly Swoop, they would have already been flying Swoop on the B scale. Something the WJPA would have gladly handed them.

There will be changes no doubt. But it won’t be an AC Mainline / Rouge relationship.

Capiche?

[Dry Guy]

And how do you plan to achieve improved wages and conditions now that the strike card has been taken off the table? Management can just say no and all you can do is say oh, ok.
They have already shown that they are hostile towards your group by hiring OTS for Swoop. They aren't going to give you more money out of the goodness of their heart.

[Snagmaster E]

And how do you plan to achieve improved wages and conditions now that the strike card has been taken off the table? Management can just say no and all you can do is say oh, ok.
They have already shown that they are hostile towards your group by hiring OTS for Swoop. They aren't going to give you more money out of the goodness of their heart.

Mediation/arbitration. They can't just say no and that's that.

[cloak]

I see this as the age of adolescence for WestJet and onset of maturity. Their airline is maturing from a small low cost carrier to a major airline flying to the four corners of the globe. This will naturally create some anxiety and concern, but will ultimately create lots of new opportunities for everyone and lots more. They will succeed as an airline if they keep their focus on the big picture and understand and support the big plan which is to protect the low end of the market from other ULCCs and Rouge with Swoop while also expanding at the mainline with wide body aircraft and creating lots of new opportunities everywhere. If they keep focus on the bigger picture as opposed to little details they will succeed. If they foster positive energy and good will, as opposed to attacking others with anger and negative energy, they will succeed. It's the law of attraction, one attracts more of what one portrays.

[schnitzel2k3]

And how do you plan to achieve improved wages and conditions now that the strike card has been taken off the table? Management can just say no and all you can do is say oh, ok.
They have already shown that they are hostile towards your group by hiring OTS for Swoop. They aren't going to give you more money out of the goodness of their heart.

I argued a similar point, but what you find in arbitration is more of a 50/50 mentality.

The pilot group gives a little, and so does the management.

My fear is that there is so much that seems to need fixing that it may not all be completed in one agreement and so the most important items need to be brought forth.

The MEC and pilot group have to decide where to draw the lines in the sand. I am very curious to see what comes out the other other end of the pipe on this one, now that they've got Swoop under control (for the most part).

S.

[goingnowherefast]

If there is too much difference between AC and WJ contracts then WJ will struggle with expansion as they will have limited applicants and not enough pilots. It appears WJ management has their head stuck in the sand and isn't seeing the shortage of pilots. As an outsider, why would I want to work for a company where management is actively and agressively trying to screw their pilots into a sub-par contract. Management needs a good contract in order to attract applicants. Hopefully they'll realise this.

[moe]

Yep, that about sums it up.
Good post.

[digits_]

If there is too much difference between AC and WJ contracts then WJ will struggle with expansion as they will have limited applicants and not enough pilots. It appears WJ management has their head stuck in the sand and isn't seeing the shortage of pilots. As an outsider, why would I want to work for a company where management is actively and agressively trying to screw their pilots into a sub-par contract. Management needs a good contract in order to attract applicants. Hopefully they'll realise this.

While I hope you are right, I doubt it though. AC has way more applicants than spots available. Not every WJ pilot who wants to work at AC will get in.

[flyzam]

If there is too much difference between AC and WJ contracts then WJ will struggle with expansion as they will have limited applicants and not enough pilots. It appears WJ management has their head stuck in the sand and isn't seeing the shortage of pilots. As an outsider, why would I want to work for a company where management is actively and agressively trying to screw their pilots into a sub-par contract. Management needs a good contract in order to attract applicants. Hopefully they'll realise this.

While I hope you are right, I doubt it though. AC has way more applicants than spots available. Not every WJ pilot who wants to work at AC will get in.

And big red still only pays $55k for the first few years. In the pit compared to international wages.

Before you pride yourself on being a big fish, make sure you're not swimming in a puddle.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

There is no real pilot shortage in Canada. If there was, AC would be paying more than $55k.

[True North]

I’m not sure anyone here understands what went on. Lol. It’s not a B scale. It’s one set of working conditions. If it’s a B scale at Swoop it’ll be a B scale at Mainline. i.e if it moves to reserve or 18 days worked, it’ll be the same at both WJ and Swoop.

If the WJ pilot group was willing to accept a B scale to fly Swoop, they would have already been flying Swoop on the B scale. Something the WJPA would have gladly handed them.

There will be changes no doubt. But it won’t be an AC Mainline / Rouge relationship.

Capiche?

You really don't get it do you. Your MEC bailed because they knew they were getting nowhere with their outrageous demands. Now they can say, look we really tried but the big bad government stepped in so now we're stuck with what they give us. Did you guys really not see this coming? The only "win" so far is that WJ pilots will have the option to move over to fly the Swoop a/c. Of course the WJ pilot group is not willing to accept a B scale at Swoop but that doesn't matter anymore. This this is now an arbitration and I guarantee you, Swoop pilots will not be working under WJ WAWCON. I also predict you will not see any great gains in your current WAWCON, you may even go backwards because arbitration in Canadian aviation seldom favours the pilots and let's face it, things there aren't nearly as bad as some of you would have us believe. In the end, Swoop will be B scale, there won't be any real gains in current working conditions and you will be out 1.9% of your salary. At least until ALPA decides they want to claw back all the money they spent getting you there, and they do a one time assessment. Then you will be out a helluva lot more. Ask any of your ex-Air Ontario brethren.

[Legacy]

Yep you know it all true north. Top bad you didn't see our email on Friday that tells usthe gains that have been solidified. But you know more

[True North]

Keep telling yourself that Legacy. When all is said and done I'll be quite happy to come back and you can tell me, I told you so.

Ain't going to happen.

But do carry on.

[ahramin]

Swoop pilots will not be working under WJ WAWCON. I also predict you will not see any great gains in your current WAWCON, you may even go backwards

This is also what I suspect will happen but hoping to be proven wrong. I will consider it a win and well worth the ALPA dues if the WJ and Woops WAWCON are the same as current contract with no major gains. That way everything is protected, you're not moving backwards, and things can be improved incrementally as the CA comes up for renewal.

[True North]

Swoop pilots will not be working under WJ WAWCON. I also predict you will not see any great gains in your current WAWCON, you may even go backwards

This is also what I suspect will happen but hoping to be proven wrong. I will consider it a win and well worth the ALPA dues if the WJ and Woops WAWCON are the same as current contract with no major gains. That way everything is protected, you're not moving backwards, and things can be improved incrementally as the CA comes up for renewal.

Very sensible ahramin and I would say the very best you could hope for. I truly hope that is the outcome for you guys, but I don't think it's likely.

[Fanblade]

Arbitrators don’t move very much from status quo. What they don’t do is hand out pay cuts. They don’t create winners and losers. First contracts are usually just your current working conditions in writing plus a grievance procedure. Keep in mind the arbitrator is only dealing with a dispute between WJ and its pilots. Whatever the WAWCON was at swoop is irrelevant.

IOW the most likely outcome is status quo and inflation raises, except for areas the two sides come to an agreement on.