WestJet pilots to fly Swoop aircraft

[gonnabeapilot]

I think the devil's in the details on this one. I have yet to see any piece of communication that Westjet pilots will be flying Swoop aircraft at Westjet wages. Given this whole thing kicked off because Westjet wanted pilots to take 2 year leaves of absences to go fly for Swoop making next to nothing can it really be considered a victory if after all this it just ends up being Westjet pilots bidding back and forth to Swoop and flying Rouge style on B scale wages that closely resemble the company's initial wage offer for Swoop?

I can't see Westjet management forcing a lockout over dental benefits but I sure can see them forcing a lockout to protect the cost structure they built into Swoop by paying B scale wages regardless of the pilot group sitting in the cockpit. Here's hoping I'm wrong but the lack of clarity on this issue is concerning and I would consider it an extremely hollow victory if a B scale still comes into play. (Or worse yet there is no B scale but the Westjet mainline scale is reduced to incorporate a portion of the cost savings desired for Swoop).

One other thing that doesn't seem all that clear to me either is whether or not the MEC has relinquished the rights of the membership to vote on the final CBA proposal or at least the parts that were mutually agreed to or if the membership now has its hands tied and must accept the CBA based in the arbitrated settlement no matter what.

I hope that those at Westjet are swamping MEC in boxes today with demands of explanations because the info to date isn't going to give peace of mind to a lot of people I know there while things drag on behind the scenes for another month

[Jumbo744]

Does anyone know how many Swoop pilots were on the property? What was the breakdown between contract/permanent?

Just curious: are you saying swoop pilots have been laid off? Where did you get this information from?

[JohnnyHotRocks]

As a Jazz pilot who was here when the 57 was introduced, I have no idea what you are talking about. The wages for the 57 were industry standard and as per our contract divided by 1500 pilots(status pay), no celebrations required.

.....resulting in the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America...flying for less money than the Skyservice pilots who previously did the job. Big win!....or as some would say, “scabs”

[TheStig]

One other thing that doesn't seem all that clear to me either is whether or not the MEC has relinquished the rights of the membership to vote on the final CBA proposal or at least the parts that were mutually agreed to or if the membership now has its hands tied and must accept the CBA based in the arbitrated settlement no matter what.

Arbitrated = No vote

[montado]

As a Jazz pilot who was here when the 57 was introduced, I have no idea what you are talking about. The wages for the 57 were industry standard and as per our contract divided by 1500 pilots(status pay), no celebrations required.

.....resulting in the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America...flying for less money than the Skyservice pilots who previously did the job. Big win!....or as some would say, “scabs”

Or resulting in the highest paid dash pilots in North America, since they all got a bump in pay. Why not tell the full story of you don’t want to sound like a moron when you try to formulate an argument?

Are you a scab becuase your tax dollars fund social programs? Are the provinces scabs for provincial equalization payments? Status pay, and spreading wealth is not a new concept. Giving everyone the same piece of the pie based on YOS, and everyone has the choice to fly what type they wanted to fly based on seniority. This makes a lot of sense in many ways, even though it’s not the industry standard.

[TheStig]

I think the devil's in the details on this one. I have yet to see any piece of communication that Westjet pilots will be flying Swoop aircraft at Westjet wages. Given this whole thing kicked off because Westjet wanted pilots to take 2 year leaves of absences to go fly for Swoop making next to nothing can it really be considered a victory if after all this it just ends up being Westjet pilots bidding back and forth to Swoop and flying Rouge style on B scale wages that closely resemble the company's initial wage offer for Swoop?

The airline will have a pretty easy time arguing to the arbitrator that rock bottom wages are required to compete in this market, and that it won't result in any job loses and better yet First Officers will be able to gain upgrades. As you mentioned the exact same script as rouge.

Hopefully it's a short term deal which will allow the members to fill out committees, hold elections and find areas which they most feel need to urgently be addressed.

Overall I imagine this is a huge relief to most westjetters, those who were actually prepared to strike in order to achieve an industry leading contract will be disappointed, as that no longer going to happen, as will those on the outside who didn't stand to lose anything from a strike or lockout. It's a shame that things took this long only to end up in from of an arbitrator, but at least the process has and will usher out the door any manager/executive who is unable to perform their duties under a revised union/company relationship.

[Transonic]

What if Swoop was only started to make you think you've won something by getting to crew it and forgetting about everything else? Everyone's patting themselves on the back for achieving the 'first thing on the list' but what have you actually gained in terms of salary or working conditions?

Our previous agreement was bound by contract law and thus impracticable to enforce collectively in the legal system. It was based on trust. The other party decided it was better to break that trust on a gamble to save money. We have essentially dug ourselves out of a hole. It cost WestJet the loyality of the pilot group and "10s of millions in losses". It will be viewed as an epic blunder and serve as a case study of hard nose tactics in labour relations and their negative results. We needed this wrapped up before June 20th and ALPA did it. Indeed a *Victory*.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

As a Jazz pilot who was here when the 57 was introduced, I have no idea what you are talking about. The wages for the 57 were industry standard and as per our contract divided by 1500 pilots(status pay), no celebrations required.

.....resulting in the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America...flying for less money than the Skyservice pilots who previously did the job. Big win!....or as some would say, “scabs”

Or resulting in the highest paid dash pilots in North America, since they all got a bump in pay. Why not tell the full story of you don’t want to sound like a moron when you try to formulate an argument?

Are you a scab becuase your tax dollars fund social programs? Are the provinces scabs for provincial equalization payments? Status pay, and spreading wealth is not a new concept. Giving everyone the same piece of the pie based on YOS, and everyone has the choice to fly what type they wanted to fly based on seniority. This makes a lot of sense in many ways, even though it’s not the industry standard.

Lol calm down. The fact remains that you had the lowest paid 757 pilots in north america doing the job for less than the previous pilots.

[truedude]

Lol calm down. The fact remains that you had the lowest paid 757 pilots in north america doing the job for less than the previous pilots.

The real test is whether the company saw any cost advantage--and they did not. As far as the company was concerned, they were paying industry standard 757 rates to have those pilot seats filled. The fact that the pilot group decided to spread that wealth around vs just have the guys actually in the chairs reap all the benefits is entirely at the discretion of the pilot group. Why is this so hard for you to understand. The economics as far as the company was concerned was identical to any other 757 operator.

[mbav8r]

As a Jazz pilot who was here when the 57 was introduced, I have no idea what you are talking about. The wages for the 57 were industry standard and as per our contract divided by 1500 pilots(status pay), no celebrations required.

.....resulting in the lowest paid 757 pilots in North America...flying for less money than the Skyservice pilots who previously did the job. Big win!....or as some would say, “scabs”

So by your logic then, Sky Service Pilots were the lowest paid 57 Pilots in North America, I’m sure those pilots are happy to know what you think of them. The wages were taken from their contract, the fact you’re too stupid to comprehend status pay is the problem.

[Maritimer]

I think the devil's in the details on this one. I have yet to see any piece of communication that Westjet pilots will be flying Swoop aircraft at Westjet wages. Given this whole thing kicked off because Westjet wanted pilots to take 2 year leaves of absences to go fly for Swoop making next to nothing can it really be considered a victory if after all this it just ends up being Westjet pilots bidding back and forth to Swoop and flying Rouge style on B scale wages that closely resemble the company's initial wage offer for Swoop?

The airline will have a pretty easy time arguing to the arbitrator that rock bottom wages are required to compete in this market, and that it won't result in any job loses and better yet First Officers will be able to gain upgrades. As you mentioned the exact same script as rouge.

Hopefully it's a short term deal which will allow the members to fill out committees, hold elections and find areas which they most feel need to urgently be addressed.

Overall I imagine this is a huge relief to most westjetters, those who were actually prepared to strike in order to achieve an industry leading contract will be disappointed, as that no longer going to happen, as will those on the outside who didn't stand to lose anything from a strike or lockout. It's a shame that things took this long only to end up in from of an arbitrator, but at least the process has and will usher out the door any manager/executive who is unable to perform their duties under a revised union/company relationship.

This is basically all conjecture and has no merit.

Only items that haven’t already been agreed upon and won’t be final by the end of negotiations will go to an arbitrator. Rumour has it that a lot of gains have been made however there are a lot of details that have yet to emerge.

For WJ pilots this isn’t just about a $$ per hour increase. There are many things going on here, Swoop/RIGs/perdiems/YOS just to name a few.

We also cannot forget that this is a first contract for a newly unionized workforce within a company that doesn't like dealing with unions. There will be gains, there will also be a loss here and there but all in all it will be a positive outcome.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Yup me too stoopid. Good arguemint

[Mostly Harmless]

truedude
JohnnyHotRocks

I have no idea why you two are arguing about something that happened 10 years ago. Nothing you say here will change the past unless one of you has a time machine... in which case, can I borrow that for a few minutes? Maybe you two could argue this out over at the Jazz forum. Where one discusses Jazz issues.

I'm genuinely concerned about a Board of Directors who would shut the doors on their own profitable company rather than negotiate. There is no business case to be made here for the lockout and I would say it is a failure of the fiduciary duty of the BOD to take care of the shareholder's interests when running the company. While it's convenient to blame a single personality, say that of the chairman of the board, it is obvious that the BOD was NOT doing it's job and should be replaced in its entirety. This was a room full of 4 year olds having a temper tantrum with my money (shares).

[bogey]

Swoop pilot list is no longer on Westnet

[TheStig]

This is basically all conjecture and has no merit.

Only items that haven’t already been agreed upon and won’t be final by the end of negotiations will go to an arbitrator. Rumour has it that a lot of gains have been made however there are a lot of details that have yet to emerge.

For WJ pilots this isn’t just about a $$ per hour increase. There are many things going on here, Swoop/RIGs/perdiems/YOS just to name a few.

We also cannot forget that this is a first contract for a newly unionized workforce within a company that doesn't like dealing with unions. There will be gains, there will also be a loss here and there but all in all it will be a positive outcome.

I love the internet. My post is without merit and all conjecture, and you start by saying “rumour has it...” Could you point out what I’ve posted that you disagree with? Do you not believe that swoop will be flown under terms less favourable than mainline? That most at Westjet are relieved with this solution?

What is a positive outcome to you may be a total failure to someone else, for what it’s worth, I see this as best case scenario given the path both sides have been taking.

[altiplano]

Does anyone know how many Swoop pilots were on the property? What was the breakdown between contract/permanent?

Just curious: are you saying swoop pilots have been laid off? Where did you get this information from?

I haven't said anything. I was asking a question.

[Maritimer]

Stig, I accidentally quoted he wrong post. My bad

The conjecture would be the assumption that we are back at square one circa 3-4 months ago.

I use the term “rumour has it” because there has been a lot of chatter on the ALPA forum as well as personal emails from very credible sources within the MEC/LEC but of course, until it is sent out as an official communication you won’t see anyone mentioning it here.

To be honest, when I reread your post there isn’t much to disagree with other than the company having an easy time convincing the mediator that rock bottom wages are the only way this can proceed. It is much more complicated than that.

I’m sure we all expect there to be some sort of discount regarding the swoop flying (unfortunately) but it won’t be anywhere as awful as what the Corp first offered and then decided to hire OTS folks for. Again, not perfect but we had to protect a serious B-scale and union vs non-union situation within this ONE company to the best of our abilities.

[altiplano]

I'd be careful treading into two tiers of wawcon...

It may seem tempting to trade it off for gains on the mainline contract, but later it will hold you back from securing gains, stall further improvements, and turn into a problem with division as the Swoop fleet and numbers grow.

IMO you are better to maintain one contract today and move forward together for future gains.

Also with arbitration - WJ is a profitable company in a booming industry and the comparators across the continent are turning record profits with labour leading your wawcon - I wouldn't fear it. Flair and Sunwing aren't your comparators - AC, Southwest, Alaska, Spirit, etc. those are your benchmarks for an arbitrator.

[cloak]

Must say it is very sad to witness the animosity shown by some to a small group of pilots who have accepted jobs offered on the open market at industry level (Sunwing and Transat), even AFTER supposedly they have declared victory for themselves! Talk about lack of magnanimity! Play the ball, not the player.

[altiplano]

Maybe you grew up playing croquet...

You always take the player.

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