Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by snowcone »

alkaseltzer wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:56 am I think Team Red should see this as a warning shot in the event of hopes of a future bailout.
I don't work for Air Canada, but when was the last time they were bailed out...when they were government run?

From what I understand, the balance sheet of AC is one of the strongest in Canada.

I don't think they have any intention of going under anytime soon.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:55 am

You are rostered to be on reserve, from 2 PM to 2 AM. You woke up at 9 AM that day, after 9 hours of excellent sleep.
And at no point you would consider modifying your sleep schedule to wake up closer to noon to account for the fact that you may be recalled? Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?

I have done weeklong shifts where I alternated between sleeping at work on a really short recall time for 24 hrs and being at home on a slightly longer recall time for the following 24 hours. Guess what: I changed my sleep schedule (yes, even with kids) to account for the fact that I may be flying at any point those weeks.
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digits_
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn »

digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
The problem is not to be fit for duty during that window, the problem is to be fit for duty during that window + 14 hours. Working for 14 hours straight is already quite tiring, even if you wake up just before at 8 AM. Now you add an unkown start time and end time in the mix, and you will be (too?) tired. Medevac flashbacks come to mind. But even in Gilles example, where you could say "just sleep in". What if the reserve day is follwing a week of early morning shifts? Your body has the capability to absorb a change from 24 hour rythm to a 23 hour or 26 hour rythm. So switching from waking up at 4 AM to waking up at noon and still waiting till 6 pm to start working for 14 hours, is just crazy. Maybe a few people are capable of doing that while they are not sleep drunk, but I have a feeling a lot won't be.

If you are, go to any medevac operator and you'll make a lot of money. They'll love you!
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 »

digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:19 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
The problem is not to be fit for duty during that window, the problem is to be fit for duty during that window + 14 hours. Working for 14 hours straight is already quite tiring, even if you wake up just before at 8 AM. Now you add an unkown start time and end time in the mix, and you will be (too?) tired. Medevac flashbacks come to mind. But even in Gilles example, where you could say "just sleep in". What if the reserve day is follwing a week of early morning shifts? Your body has the capability to absorb a change from 24 hour rythm to a 23 hour or 26 hour rythm. So switching from waking up at 4 AM to waking up at noon and still waiting till 6 pm to start working for 14 hours, is just crazy. Maybe a few people are capable of doing that while they are not sleep drunk, but I have a feeling a lot won't be.

If you are, go to any medevac operator and you'll make a lot of money. They'll love you!
Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by groundpilot »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:36 pm
digits_ wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:39 pm Or consider napping a couple of times during the day to stay well rested?
Peope aren't cellphones you can leave in a charger all day and expect them to be fully charged at any time.

If napping works for you: great. For some people, it just doesn't.
There are strategies that you can use. While they may not all be effective for you, one or two surely are. If you are trying to treat your day on reserve as a day off, perhaps you just have to suck it up or reconsider your career choices. In that window, you are accountable to your employer to be fit for duties. You better make sure you are...
:roll:

Some people have families, lives, you know...

You may not just be able to just take a nap. I am pretty sure no junior pilot in the real world treats a reserve day as a day off. Probably the polar opposite, a day of wondering where they are going to end up and in what kind of weather...
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn »

groundpilot wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:40 pm
:roll:

Some people have families, lives, you know...

You may not just be able to just take a nap. I am pretty sure no junior pilot in the real world treats a reserve day as a day off. Probably the polar opposite, a day of wondering where they are going to end up and in what kind of weather...
If that's how you really feel, perhaps you should reconsider your career choice.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by flyzam »

AuxBatOn wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:23 am
groundpilot wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:40 pm
:roll:

Some people have families, lives, you know...

You may not just be able to just take a nap. I am pretty sure no junior pilot in the real world treats a reserve day as a day off. Probably the polar opposite, a day of wondering where they are going to end up and in what kind of weather...
If that's how you really feel, perhaps you should reconsider your career choice.
That classic diversionary "if you don't like it you can lump it' instead of the more educated "let's fix it"
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Maybe airlines should just stop flying at night
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by ant_321 »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:53 am Maybe airlines should just stop flying at night
That's something I can get behind. No flights between 2300 and 0900. :lol:
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by Kejidog »

One thing I guarantee you is that you’ll never see any of those liberal dicks or any other politician for that matter, on a low cost airline. They suck up the good seats on the big boys at our kids and grand kids expense. What a country!
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by AuxBatOn »

flyzam wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:56 am
That classic diversionary "if you don't like it you can lump it' instead of the more educated "let's fix it"
All jobs require some form of loyalty towards the employer for the relationship to work. When you are “On Reserve”, you are responsible and in some cases, accountable to the company to be fit for duty. Yes, it may mean using your reserve day to be rested for your liability period and forego family activities. I generally consider that “work” where I can tend to my personnal activities rather than “personnal time” during which I may have to go to “work”.

I don’t think a 12-hour liability period is unreasonable, if you take that time to ensure you are well rested.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by digits_ »

AuxBatOn wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 pm If you take that time to ensure you are well rested.
So what are the other techniques to accomplish this? You mentioned napping, which doesn't work for some people. What else is there?

Scenario: you wake up at 7 AM due to your biorythm, you slumber in bed and you finally get up at 9. You are on reserve 1400-2200. At 2100 you get a call and your day starts for a 12 hour trip. How would you deal with it? I'm honestly interested to learn what other techniques there are.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

digits_ wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:14 pm
AuxBatOn wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:49 pm If you take that time to ensure you are well rested.
So what are the other techniques to accomplish this? You mentioned napping, which doesn't work for some people. What else is there?

Scenario: you wake up at 7 AM due to your biorythm, you slumber in bed and you finally get up at 9. You are on reserve 1400-2200. At 2100 you get a call and your day starts for a 12 hour trip. How would you deal with it? I'm honestly interested to learn what other techniques there are.
There aren’t. He’s just trying to ruffle feathers.

Take a nap in cruise I guess. I find even 20 minutes helps me immensely. Of course if your company has SOP provisions for that sort of thing.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by av8r374 »

FL007 wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 am
Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.
Your claim that "no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that" is terribly naive and full of self-pity. You don't even have to look very far as it is common place in the aviation industry. Talk to dispatchers, maintenance personnel, crew schedulers etc. They all do it.

It is perfectly normal and very common to work until anywhere between 4-7pm one day and then report for a 12-hour shift 24 hours later. In fact what's even worse is that the opposite is allowed (working a string of 12 hour night shifts and reporting for an early morning shift 24 hours later).

I am not in any way implying this is okay or humane. I 100% agree with you on that part, especially considering the safety critical nature of the industry.

If you have trouble sleeping in I recommend two things.
1. Try some melatonin when you need to do that (1mg is plenty).
2. Stay off avcanada on those nights when you're forcing yourself to stay up until 3am. It can't possibly do any wonders for a good sleep :lol:
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 »

av8r374 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:42 am
FL007 wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:09 am
Exactly, and since there aren't any rules in terms of giving night/morning shifts I've definitely had a week of early mornings ending at 4-5pm and a flight the immediate next day ending at 3am.

The only way to make it work after a long day is to force myself to stay up until 3am that night after I had been working since 5am and hope I wake up late enough in the morning to be rested for my late flight.

It's inhumane, no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that, but we are, and I'm not even a medevac driver.
Your claim that "no shift workers are allowed to get switched like that" is terribly naive and full of self-pity. You don't even have to look very far as it is common place in the aviation industry. Talk to dispatchers, maintenance personnel, crew schedulers etc. They all do it.

It is perfectly normal and very common to work until anywhere between 4-7pm one day and then report for a 12-hour shift 24 hours later. In fact what's even worse is that the opposite is allowed (working a string of 12 hour night shifts and reporting for an early morning shift 24 hours later).

I am not in any way implying this is okay or humane. I 100% agree with you on that part, especially considering the safety critical nature of the industry.

If you have trouble sleeping in I recommend two things.
1. Try some melatonin when you need to do that (1mg is plenty).
2. Stay off avcanada on those nights when you're forcing yourself to stay up until 3am. It can't possibly do any wonders for a good sleep :lol:
It isn't self pity or naive, labor laws exist for everyone besides industry that is federally regulated, ie: pilots. Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
You can't pool Dispatch, crew schedulers, and maintenance with pilots in this, everyone gets a lunch break, mandated breaks, can use an actual washroom, etc, except pilots.
Cause of additional fatigue? Vibration, loud noise, heat/cold.

I have no problem sleeping, but as science shows, humans are based on the rhythm, these current rules are abysmal and shouldn't exist as they are.

10+ leg 14hr days in a 705 machine is for the dogs.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by goldeneagle »

FL007 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:53 pm Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
Checked out shift schedules at a hospital lately ? Nurses typically do 12 hour shifts, 2 days, followed immediately by 2 nights. Yes, they finish a day shift at 1930 and are expected to show up for a 12 hour night exactly 24 hours later.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by FL007 »

goldeneagle wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:50 pm
FL007 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:53 pm Nurses doing nights/days usually have a period to re adjust.
Checked out shift schedules at a hospital lately ? Nurses typically do 12 hour shifts, 2 days, followed immediately by 2 nights. Yes, they finish a day shift at 1930 and are expected to show up for a 12 hour night exactly 24 hours later.
24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.
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Re: Minisiter of Transport M Garneau braggs about Swoop

Post by av8r374 »

FL007 wrote: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:30 am
24hrs is a lot better than working 4am until 10am, then 9pm the same night until 11am.. I'd love 24hrs to readjust, just not 9hrs like I can flick a switch and "rest" on command.

There's no defending these duty rules. Nurses also make more than double the first year than a 704 FO.

We're comparing apples to oranges, I was just bringing up the fact that all shift workers besides pilots are required to abide by labor laws, which in some regards are more strict than pilot regs.

We all know of people getting shafted at work, but these duty regs are an absolute problem, especially on a challenging weather day. I even know friends who have had an extended duty day who had to deadhead 3-4hrs afterwards (21hr shift), would the labor board accept that? Absolutely not.
I agree duty regs are long overdue for an overhaul. What would be a good system to have?

Referencing your post from earlier about other aviation shift workers. 705 Dispatchers do not get scheduled meal breaks. Meals are usually eaten at their desk. Short breaks (<10 mins) taken to go get/warm up food, go to the bathroom etc. During those breaks, control must be transferred to another dispatcher who has a lot on their plate as is. They can plan/watch upwards of 50 flights per day, can be glued to a computer screen for 12 hours straight dealing with multiple flights that have weather etc. It is a high stress job that requires multi-tasking and concentration for hours on end. They can work 4-7 12 hour days straight (talk about challenging weather day). It's not quite a walk in the park either.
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