No more WJ non-stop YEG-LAS

[FICU]

In the end you get to be in charge of your money vs paying a manulife manager exorbitant amounts to manage it for you and underperform the market

My shitty Manulife DC funds have done 13% over the last 5 years and 9.8% over the last 10 years. Pick the right portfolio and you'll be fine.

[Hangry]

STFU already tbaylx

Pest.

Thanks for that Moe, i have a much better understanding of the ESPP issues because of your contribution to the thread.

There’s that vomit in my mouth again. It’s just so annoying seeing someone who’s been at “WJ” for all of 2 seconds wax poetic about all things WJ. Especially after what you did. You really do have no shame. But why would you.

[tbaylx]

In the end you get to be in charge of your money vs paying a manulife manager exorbitant amounts to manage it for you and underperform the market

My shitty Manulife DC funds have done 13% over the last 5 years and 9.8% over the last 10 years. Pick the right portfolio and you'll be fine.

Mine have done well too, i have access to the same ones you do.

If you held the same securities in an ETF you would have done 14%. You're still paying the approximately 0.5-0.6% MER/IMF (5T fees are also lower than others after they adjusted them in 2012-13, many are over 1%) fee to manulife vs a .05% fee on an average ETF. That's ten times higher fees at Manulife. Over the course of 20 years of investments that's 10's of thousands of dollars out of your pocket. Just because the market has done well doesn't mean you aren't overpaying on your investments.

[tbaylx]

STFU already tbaylx

Pest.

Thanks for that Moe, i have a much better understanding of the ESPP issues because of your contribution to the thread.

There’s that vomit in my mouth again. It’s just so annoying seeing someone who’s been at “WJ” for all of 2 seconds wax poetic about all things WJ. Especially after what you did. You really do have no shame. But why would you.

I'm not wax'ing anything, just trying to understand why the hate for an ESPP when it appears to be a far better way of managing your retirement than mutual fund based DC pension. If you can look past your own personal problems with Swoop DEC's to answer the question then feel free. I'm under no illusions that everything is a Shangri La at WJ or Swoop.

[FICU]

Over the course of 20 years of investments that's 10's of thousands of dollars out of your pocket. Just because the market has done well doesn't mean you aren't overpaying on your investments.

DC is our only option so we make the best of it and I'm doing just fine.

What was so bad about working for the TSB to want to join Swoop as an outsider?

[tbaylx]

Over the course of 20 years of investments that's 10's of thousands of dollars out of your pocket. Just because the market has done well doesn't mean you aren't overpaying on your investments.

DC is our only option so we make the best of it and I'm doing just fine.

What was so bad about working for the TSB to want to join Swoop as an outsider?

I agree if it's your only option you do what you can, at least the fees got dropped there so they aren't outrageous. I don't see why you'd voluntarily choose to go to that system though if you had a better option.
Nothing wrong with the TSB, some great folks there. Send me a PM if you want my personal reasons for leaving for Swoop.

[Piston-Broke]

The 10 year passes now at my tax bracket essentially means I pay half of whatever the ticket is worth (another 50% off confirmed if you may) I don’t need anymore taxable benefits.. paying over $7000 a year for LTD and STD is enough “benefits” for me.

[moe]

Yep, it would be nice to rid ourselves of that ~$600 ltd/std ding every month..

[aerobod]

The 10 year passes now at my tax bracket essentially means I pay half of whatever the ticket is worth (another 50% off confirmed if you may)

The CRA only assesses 50% of the market value of the taxable benefit, so if your total top marginal tax rate is 50%, 25% of the value will be paid in tax, so it is effectively a 75% off confirmed ticket.

[RidersRule]

The 10 year passes, if I had chosen to use them, would have costed me about $800 in tax. I have plenty of kids, a Wife with a business, and $2200 in WestJet dollars due to using my RBC card a lot. There is no incentive for me to use the 10 year passes. I’ll just go 50% off confirmed, which by the way is a great program.

The fact of the matter is the company used to pay the taxes. They don’t anymore. They were taken away from me.

[WeedPro2000]

The 10 year passes, if I had chosen to use them, would have costed me about $800 in tax. I have plenty of kids, a Wife with a business, and $2200 in WestJet dollars due to using my RBC card a lot. There is no incentive for me to use the 10 year passes. I’ll just go 50% off confirmed, which by the way is a great program.

The fact of the matter is the company used to pay the taxes. They don’t anymore. They were taken away from me.

Travis, you’ve lost way more than the benefit of a tax-deductible gift in the stock price drop that occurred as a result of the misguided and stupid strike threat fiasco by ALPA. You going to carry a grudge against ALPA for as long as you’ve carried a grudge against WJ because of the 10 year gift thing?

[RidersRule]

Rumour has it ALPA got me 1:1 YOS John.

I’m not concerned about the stock price. I’m not sure if you know this but you only loss on stocks if you sell them below what you paid for them. I don’t have to sell now. Most of its in a RRSP. I’m continually averaging down and when cost average hits the current price I’ll move everything out into something else. Did that about eight months ago when we got up into the high $20’s, after it had been trading at $18 in 2016. Damn ALPA of 2016. Oh wait. Never mind.

Hope all is well bud.

Me loves my ALPA!

[WeedPro2000]

Travis buddy, I remember having a great time in YUL with you about 6 years ago. I can pinpoint it pretty well because my a$$ was quite sore and within a few months I had my cancer diagnosis. (It was nothing you did on the pairing...)

Well, I hope you get what you want out of ALPA. I suspect not everyone will be happy with what they’ve done.

Enjoy the rest of the summer!

John

[musicalpilotchairs]

Well I'm thinking about starting a "Didn't need it, didn't want it, but sure as hell gonna pay for it" club

[RidersRule]

Travis buddy, I remember having a great time in YUL with you about 6 years ago. I can pinpoint it pretty well because my a$$ was quite sore and within a few months I had my cancer diagnosis. (It was nothing you did on the pairing...)

Well, I hope you get what you want out of ALPA. I suspect not everyone will be happy with what they’ve done.

Enjoy the rest of the summer!

John

Now that’s funny (not the cancer of course).

Remember that pairing as well. Good times.

Safe jumping.

[Legacy]

The 10 year passes, if I had chosen to use them, would have costed me about $800 in tax. I have plenty of kids, a Wife with a business, and $2200 in WestJet dollars due to using my RBC card a lot. There is no incentive for me to use the 10 year passes. I’ll just go 50% off confirmed, which by the way is a great program.

The fact of the matter is the company used to pay the taxes. They don’t anymore. They were taken away from me.

Travis, you’ve lost way more than the benefit of a tax-deductible gift in the stock price drop that occurred as a result of the misguided and stupid strike threat fiasco by ALPA. You going to carry a grudge against ALPA for as long as you’ve carried a grudge against WJ because of the 10 year gift thing?

Weedpro.....read between the lines
I He’s probably pissed off at I
I WJ and what they have done I
I in the last decade to get to the I
I point we’re at. I

[aidos]

Compensation is compensation and costs are costs. I have not seen anything publicly that mandates in the terms of reference for the arbitration that a certain cost increase cap is in place. Therefore, it would appear to rely on strength of argument. I also do not predict windfall gains for either party (individuals perhaps but not entire pilot group).

No reason that resulting WAWCON for SWOOP will not look surprisingly similar to ROUGE (and since there is no legitimately established cost benchmark at SWOOP, it is in fact a blank slate for the arbitrator). So what that leaves is WJ mainline WAWCON plus benefits (including pension). AC has a new, innovative, and substantial pension program now in place as an alternative to tradional DB. So if achieving a real pension benefit is an issue for the WJ ALPA negotiating committee, then that is a likely model. And it may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing (although the AC pilots now have a meaningful and substantial profit sharing program). Similarly, reductions in pilot efficiency (credits) may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing.

Pilot costs are going up at WJ as result of the pilots desire to bargain collectively. But how a WJ pilot derives his/her T4 gross amount and retirement benefit is likely going to change as a result of this process. The result will be good for the WJ pilots as a group and good for the profession.

Why would anyone want to give up the ESPP for a DC pension. With the ESPP you can sell the shares, move them to a TFSA or spousal RRSP and self manage your retirement in a tax efficient manner. With a DC pension you get to buy overpriced Manulife mutual funds and have no control over your investments. What’s the attraction? Am I missing something?

Tbaylx.

I am a westjet pilot of 10+ years.

Firstly let me try to explain how you, and your fellow original DEC swoop captains, are seen by the rest of us westjet pilots.....

- I would guess about 20% of us are OK with you accepting your positions, or have no opinion on the matter.
- about another 20% are at the other end of spectrum. They are furious, insulted, and do not hide it. You no doubt have been conversing with a few of these types on this site. They will have no problem letting you know how they feel, either anonymously on this forum, and even in person.
- about 60% are very upset how you slid into our WESTJET planes, undercutting us, taking our upgrades etc. This group however are more likely to not say anything to you, especially in person. I would consider myself to be in this group. Make no mistake, we all know who you are. We may not say anything to you, but you will most likely carry a certain “stigma” attached to your name for a very long time ( right or wrong).

You seem to have many reasons to justify in your mind why is was OK to accept your position at swoop. I can tell from your posts that you, and I assume all of your “original swoopster” peers, are smart people. I am sure you knew how your choice to accept the captain spot at swoop would be seen by Westjet pilots. I will admit that you may not have known just how much animosity there would be, or downplayed it in your mind to make your decision easier to justify. You are but one of a long list of pilots who step on the heels of others for their own gain. For too long pilots have been accepting sub-par wages, or offer to fly for free to build time, or skip the wait for an upgrade. All this does is bring down pilot wages collectively, and makes it harder for those pilots looking to advance pilot respsect, wages and working conditions. I suppose due to human nature this will continue until we are part of a collective professional association of sorts. However it does not make it right.

Most of the original 26 swoop captains seem to lay low. For some reason you seem to have made your self the spokes person for swoop pilots on this forum and elsewhere, and that is fine. I would however, like to humbly suggest you refrain from telling us how great our is ESP is. Having been here less than a year, you are hardly qualified to realize the long term implication of our ESP program. I think most pilots at westjet having tenure of 2- 20 years, who have been through many ups and downs of the stock price etc have earned enough experience on the topic to express their concerns. You haven’t even been here a year, maybe listen to our concerns instead of telling us how great we have it. Believe me, our concerns over how we are paid did not happen over night , or even after a year. Our concerns come with many years of frustration over our current pay structure. I think you better indulge in a big slice of ‘ humble pie’ before you tell people with 5-20 years experience with westjet, how good they have it with or ESP program as it stands.

I find it very ironic that you will now be represented by ALPA, actually the WESTJET MEC of ALPA. These very pilots were recently flying the planes you now fly as Swoop, will now be advocating for better working conditions and pay for you and your fellow Direct entry captains. They are advocating hard to raise the low pay/ benefits and terrible working conditions that you and your fellow initial swoop pilots thought were reasonable. If this isn’t reason enough for you to be a little more humble, than I don’t know what is.

You, and your fellow swoopsters on here ,will no doubt have counter arguments to my comments. And that is fine. It will hardly do anything to change how the majority of us feel.

[tbaylx]

Compensation is compensation and costs are costs. I have not seen anything publicly that mandates in the terms of reference for the arbitration that a certain cost increase cap is in place. Therefore, it would appear to rely on strength of argument. I also do not predict windfall gains for either party (individuals perhaps but not entire pilot group).

No reason that resulting WAWCON for SWOOP will not look surprisingly similar to ROUGE (and since there is no legitimately established cost benchmark at SWOOP, it is in fact a blank slate for the arbitrator). So what that leaves is WJ mainline WAWCON plus benefits (including pension). AC has a new, innovative, and substantial pension program now in place as an alternative to tradional DB. So if achieving a real pension benefit is an issue for the WJ ALPA negotiating committee, then that is a likely model. And it may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing (although the AC pilots now have a meaningful and substantial profit sharing program). Similarly, reductions in pilot efficiency (credits) may come at the cost of reductions in RSU’s, ESPP, and profit sharing.

Pilot costs are going up at WJ as result of the pilots desire to bargain collectively. But how a WJ pilot derives his/her T4 gross amount and retirement benefit is likely going to change as a result of this process. The result will be good for the WJ pilots as a group and good for the profession.

Why would anyone want to give up the ESPP for a DC pension. With the ESPP you can sell the shares, move them to a TFSA or spousal RRSP and self manage your retirement in a tax efficient manner. With a DC pension you get to buy overpriced Manulife mutual funds and have no control over your investments. What’s the attraction? Am I missing something?

Tbaylx.

I am a westjet pilot of 10+ years.

Firstly let me try to explain how you, and your fellow original DEC swoop captains, are seen by the rest of us westjet pilots.....

- I would guess about 20% of us are OK with you accepting your positions, or have no opinion on the matter.
- about another 20% are at the other end of spectrum. They are furious, insulted, and do not hide it. You no doubt have been conversing with a few of these types on this site. They will have no problem letting you know how they feel, either anonymously on this forum, and even in person.
- about 60% are very upset how you slid into our WESTJET planes, undercutting us, taking our upgrades etc. This group however are more likely to not say anything to you, especially in person. I would consider myself to be in this group. Make no mistake, we all know who you are. We may not say anything to you, but you will most likely carry a certain “stigma” attached to your name for a very long time ( right or wrong).

You seem to have many reasons to justify in your mind why is was OK to accept your position at swoop. I can tell from your posts that you, and I assume all of your “original swoopster” peers, are smart people. I am sure you knew how your choice to accept the captain spot at swoop would be seen by Westjet pilots. I will admit that you may not have known just how much animosity there would be, or downplayed it in your mind to make your decision easier to justify. You are but one of a long list of pilots who step on the heels of others for their own gain. For too long pilots have been accepting sub-par wages, or offer to fly for free to build time, or skip the wait for an upgrade. All this does is bring down pilot wages collectively, and makes it harder for those pilots looking to advance pilot respsect, wages and working conditions. I suppose due to human nature this will continue until we are part of a collective professional association of sorts. However it does not make it right.

Most of the original 26 swoop captains seem to lay low. For some reason you seem to have made your self the spokes person for swoop pilots on this forum and elsewhere, and that is fine. I would however, like to humbly suggest you refrain from telling us how great our is ESP is. Having been here less than a year, you are hardly qualified to realize the long term implication of our ESP program. I think most pilots at westjet having tenure of 2- 20 years, who have been through many ups and downs of the stock price etc have earned enough experience on the topic to express their concerns. You haven’t even been here a year, maybe listen to our concerns instead of telling us how great we have it. Believe me, our concerns over how we are paid did not happen over night , or even after a year. Our concerns come with many years of frustration over our current pay structure. I think you better indulge in a big slice of ‘ humble pie’ before you tell people with 5-20 years experience with westjet, how good they have it with or ESP program as it stands.

I find it very ironic that you will now be represented by ALPA, actually the WESTJET MEC of ALPA. These very pilots were recently flying the planes you now fly as Swoop, will now be advocating for better working conditions and pay for you and your fellow Direct entry captains. They are advocating hard to raise the low pay/ benefits and terrible working conditions that you and your fellow initial swoop pilots thought were reasonable. If this isn’t reason enough for you to be a little more humble, than I don’t know what is.

You, and your fellow swoopsters on here ,will no doubt have counter arguments to my comments. And that is fine. It will hardly do anything to change how the majority of us feel.

I'm actually genuinely asking why the ESPP hate, humbly. I'm not trying to tell you how great anything is. Having been on the receiving end of more than a few DC Manulife plans i'm trying to understand why someone would voluntarily choose that. If you can explain that to me it'd be much appreciated.

As for the rest I've said my piece already. Appreciate you sharing your point of view respectfully.

[Hangry]

tbaylx. Shhhhhhhhhhh. Trash

[tbaylx]

tbaylx. Shhhhhhhhhhh. Trash