(32 votes cast): WPSL Poll

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The WestJet Pilot Seniority List referred to by Kaplan in his Interim Order/Award:

Poll ended at Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:08 pm

1) Includes WJE pilots and is ordered by DOH at WJ or WJE, whichever is earlier (duplicates WPDL).
13
39%
2) Does not include WJE pilots, but is ordered by DOH at WJ or WJE, whichever is earlier (same order as WPDL).
5
15%
3) Does not include WJE pilots, and is ordered only by DOH at WJ (no credit for service at WJE).
15
45%
 
Total votes: 33

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(32 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:08 pm

Choose one answer:
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Re: WestJet Pilot Seniority List Poll

Post by Lightchop » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:28 pm

I refuse to play your games.

I hope the rest of AvCanada passes on this poll as well which is only here to stir the pot which you enjoy so damn much.
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Re: WestJet Pilot Seniority List Poll

Post by GAF » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:50 pm

Ignore him.
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Re: WestJet Pilot Seniority List Poll

Post by Lightchop » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:09 pm

105 views, 1 vote.

That says all it needs to.
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Re: WestJet Pilot Seniority List Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:38 am

There are 24 votes, which includes my 1 vote. I'm not trying to game the system. I am sincerely curious how people think things will turn out. Nothing here will influence the result of the arbitration, nor will it change the facts of the situation. The rules remain the rules, and the MEC's of both WJ and WJE will operate under them.

Cheers,

John
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Re: (19 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by Dizzy D » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:16 pm

China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:38 am
There are 19 votes, which includes my 1 vote. I'm not trying to game the system. I am sincerely curious how people think things will turn out. Nothing here will influence the result of the arbitration, nor will it change the facts of the situation. The rules remain the rules, and the MEC's of both WJ and WJE will operate under them.

Cheers,

John
You’ve chosen quite the platform for this “survey” of yours. You might as well go on a street corner in Calgary and ask random strangers what they think. Seriously, you should just take this piece of garbage down.
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Re: (19 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by skybaron » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:54 pm

Jesus. This guy John is relentless.

Can someone other than himself and his multiple personalities please agree with his views, so that this constant bombardment of useless insight may be put to rest.
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Re: (19 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by 7ECA » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:30 pm

Oh hell no baron!

That'll be like the time pdw and pelmet had that bizarre incestuous love in thread that went on for pages, it was hideous. :lol:
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Post by The Tenth Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:53 am

Hi gents (ladies? they? zie?).

The supporting evidence for the inability of ALPA to replicate the WPDL - One List in an ALPA CBA is now exhausted. What remains now is for the appearance of the DOH WestJet Pilot Seniority List that will not have the current WJE pilots on it. For those still clinging to hope for a different outcome, that will be like the moment the Coyote, while chasing the RoadRunner, ends up ten feet past the edge of the cliff and all is fine...until he looks down. In an instant, the fog of illusion is lifted and the truth appears.

In spite all of the actual pieces of evidence, and under a consistent barrage of ad hominem attacks, two consistent themes have appeared and re-appeared:



(1) I AM WRONG, BUT NO ONE CAN SAY WHY


(2) ALPA CAN REMAKE THE WPDL, BUT NO ONE CAN SAY HOW



The collapse of the WPDL - One List system of determining upgrades and base assignments brings directly into question how ALPA can continue to persist in espousing the illusion that bringing ALPA onto the WJ property has in any way brought unity. As should be apparent, ALPA rules will have brought and will continue to bring the opposite: division.

Well done.
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Post by The Tenth Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:48 am

In the 24 votes cast thus far, 10 votes or 48% believe the WPSL will contain no WJE pilots, and will be organized by DOH, with no credit for WJE service. Obviously this is not a scientifically valid survey as no one knows who has voted or for what reasons they chose as they did, and the sample size is insignificant.

The WJ pilot group will need to find a way out of the morass that ALPA has brought. Will that be de-certification, a raid by another union, acceptance by the flowthrough pilots of their lot, or simply the passage of time and the departure of aggrieved pilots? Perhaps the company will agree to a recognition of years of service at WJE for pay purposes.

The theme of disunity between pilot groups is not new. ALPA sought a Single Employer declaration from the CIRB between Air Canada and the connector airlines following the Air Canada/Canadian merger. One of the memorable lines to come out of that case is reproduced here:

CAW submits that this hearing is about nothing more than “a continuation by other means of the pilot civil war that took place within CALPA between the Air Canada pilots and connector pilots and eventually caused the destruction of CALPA as a trade union.” It also submits that connector pilots do not care about labour relations or the potential impact on other employees but care more about their own interests.

Unfortunately, the WJE pilots (current and former) will have no legal recourse. The time for action was in the run up to the certification vote at WJ. Union officials and members of the organizing committee owe no legal duty of care to prospective union members. What this means is that their statements, any of their statements, cannot be relied upon by the target employees. Similar to a political campaign, one cannot later sue for statements made in a campaign that turned out to be false. I made a trip to the CIRB office in Toronto in April 2017 and had this information confirmed.

The situation is a clear case of caveat emptor.


1999cirb44_p35_JPEG.jpg
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In division,

ALPA
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Re: (21 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by TFTMB heavy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:53 am

China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:48 am
In the 21 votes cast thus far, 10 votes or 48% believe the WPSL will contain no WJE pilots, and will be organized by DOH, with no credit for WJE service. Obviously this is not a scientifically valid survey as no one knows who has voted or for what reasons they chose as they did, and the sample size is insignificant.

The WJ pilot group will need to find a way out of the morass that ALPA has brought. Will that be de-certification, a raid by another union, acceptance by the flowthrough pilots of their lot, or simply the passage of time and the departure of aggrieved pilots? Perhaps the company will agree to a recognition of years of service at WJE for pay purposes.

The theme of disunity between pilot groups is not new. ALPA sought a Single Employer declaration from the CIRB between Air Canada and the connector airlines following the Air Canada/Canadian merger. One of the memorable lines to come out of that case is reproduced here:

CAW submits that this hearing is about nothing more than “a continuation by other means of the pilot civil war that took place within CALPA between the Air Canada pilots and connector pilots and eventually caused the destruction of CALPA as a trade union.” It also submits that connector pilots do not care about labour relations or the potential impact on other employees but care more about their own interests.

Unfortunately, the WJE pilots (current and former) will have no legal recourse. The time for action was in the run up to the certification vote at WJ. Union officials and members of the organizing committee owe no legal duty of care to prospective union members. What this means is that their statements, any of their statements, cannot be relied upon by the target employees. Similar to a political campaign, one cannot later sue for statements made in a campaign that turned out to be false. I made a trip to the CIRB office in Toronto in April 2017 and had this information confirmed.

The situation is a clear case of caveat emptor.


1999cirb44_p35_JPEG.jpg
In division,

ALPA
It's really hard to see what your end game is here? Get rid of ALPA, keep dividing the WS pilot group further or both?
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Re: (21 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by cloak » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:23 am

China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:53 am
The collapse of the WPDL - One List system of determining upgrades and base assignments ...
Why should experience at a different airline, with a different bargaining unit and a different aircraft type be used for determining upgrades at another airline? Perhaps it is better to use DOH at WestJet for seniority, while maintaining DOH in the "Group" for pay, vacation, benefits as a recognition of service by the corporation.
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Re: (21 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by George Taylor » Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:42 am

Anyone at WestJet I encourage you to ask your MEC for a copy of the pilot list that Mr. Kaplan is using. You won't get one. Unfortunately JS is on to something.
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Re: (24 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:13 am

TFTMB heavy wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:53 am
It's really hard to see what your end game is here? Get rid of ALPA, keep dividing the WS pilot group further or both?
End game.

Hm.

Not sure I have an end game. Is the truth not enough of a motivation? Perhaps that can be an end game, the exposure of the truth. I'll need to to seriously analyze my motivations to get at my end game. Do a "Step 4".

To answer your question(s), perhaps I can say that "dividing the WS pilot group" is a foregone conclusion. That likely happened with the election of ALPA at WJ, but was definitely the result when WJE pilots followed suit and elected ALPA as their bargaining agent. By doing so, that forced the ALPA merger policy to be governing between the two groups. This meant that an integrated seniority list (ISL), if sought (LOU?) would be unable to re-order the respective seniority lists at WJ and WJE, which of course means that any merger attempt would severely penalize any pilots who had already flowed to WJ.

That said, if WJE pilots had certified with any other union besides ALPA, thereby meaning that the ALPA merger policy was not governing, and therefore allowing the order of the respective seniority lists to be re-ordered in the ISL, it is unlikely that there would have been political interest in a merger, ALPA being "dissed" by the WJE pilots. So in reality, the election of ALPA at WJ cemented the division to come.

I think that one shouldn't blame scientists for exposing global warming with evidence. In my mind, I'm that scientist but the issue is the cover up (intentional or not) of the freight train barreling down the tracks towards the pilot group. When the former MEC Chairman and the soon to be Canada Board President both confirmed attempts in place to replicate the One List, I really felt that an attempt was being formulated to blame the company for the failure of the LOU or whatever other remedy ALPA proposed. I decided then to present again the full weight of the arguments against ALPA's position. I was not prepared to accept the spin machine placing the blame on an innocent party.

In terms of justice for the current WJE pilots and the former WJE pilots at WJ, I think a start would be to find a reason to prevent the Canada Board President - Elect from taking office in January. He really should have been aware of the laws and policies preventing adoption of the One List in an ALPA CBA. His efforts to persuade WJE pilots to have hope very likely encouraged some of the misinformed among them to delay or decide against looking for employment elsewhere if the WPDL was a major factor in them staying put.

In a similar vein, the current YVR Secretary - Treasurer is seeking the YVR LEC Captain rep position. Given his integral role in persuading WJ pilots that the One List could survive certification with ALPA, I suggest that he should not be rewarded for the misrepresentation, innocent as it was. He should have known better. See attached screenshot:
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Post by The Tenth Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:25 pm

On June 11, 2018, three days after Kaplan's Interim Order of June 8, The WJ MEC confirmed the existence of a single seniority list that consisted of WJ and Swoop pilots:

"...By having a single seniority list, a single bargaining unit, and single collective agreement,..."

It is obvious that there is a single bargaining unit composing WJ and (now) Swoop pilots, as WJE pilots are in their own bargaining unit. It is obvious that there is a single collective agreement that governs WJ and (now) Swoop pilots, as the WJE MEC is negotiating its own, separate collective agreement. It should be obvious that that the first term of the sentence above in italics is referring as well to a single seniority list composed of only WJ and (now) Swoop pilots, and that WJE pilots are on their own seniority list.




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Re: (24 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:52 pm

{I apologize in advance for the somewhat tedious nature of this post. I couldn't find a way to elegantly make my point, which is that Q15 and A15 seem to be deliberately opaque. John}

The preceding post, in which the MEC confirms that the WPSL does not contain WJE pilots, makes the following section from the same MEC update somewhat problematic:

Q15: Do the current Swoop pilots come before or after Encore pilots in seniority?

A15: In the arbitrator's interim award, Swoop pilots were given seniority based on their date of hire, which places them behind all but roughly 30 Encore pilots who have been hired since the first Swoop pilots were hired.


The above question could be answered in two ways. If the question were phrased:

Do the current Swoop pilots come before or after Encore pilots in seniority on the WPDL - One List?

then the answer would clearly indicate that the MEC was stating that the Swoop pilots were added to the WPDL, and that the WPSL that Kaplan refers to is the same as the WPDL, alleviating any concerns of current WJE pilots, and of WJE pilots already flowed to WJ.

But the question could also mean:

Do the current Swoop pilots come before or after Encore pilots in seniority on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List?

In that case the question could be ambiguous, unless reference is made to the previous post in which the WPSL is confirmed to have only WJ and Swoop pilots. This interpretation would be very worrisome to WJE pilots.

In any event, the answer to the above question is similarly ambiguous.

...Swoop pilots were given seniority based on their date of hire, which places them behind all but roughly 30 Encore pilots who have been hired since the first Swoop pilots were hired.

Is the MEC referring to 30 OTS pilots who were hired at Encore after the Swoop pilots were hired? If so, this would support a belief that the Swoop pilots were added to the WPDL, and the One List was still in operation in the coming CBA.

However, the answer could also mean that Swoop pilots were ahead of 30 Encore pilots who have been hired at WJ. This would be worrisome to WJE pilots.

It is hard not to take an unflattering view of question 15 and answer 15. They both seem to have been specifically formulated to alleviate any concerns that the WPDL One List was no longer a going concern.



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Re: (24 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:51 pm

In the ALPA Merger Policy, Part 3 C is entitled Seniority List Integration.

I note the following sentence from Kaplan's Interim Order of June 8, 2018:

At the commencement of this process, both parties highlighted a critical issue that needed immediate resolution given its time sensitive nature: the integration of seniority of existing Swoop and WestJet pilots.

Integration of the seniority of Swoop and WestJet pilots simply means the integration of the Swoop Seniority List with the WestJet Pilot Seniority List, to form an Integrated Seniority List (ISL), to use the parlance of ALPA and others. This is clear evidence that Swoop pilots and WestJet pilots are on a seniority list (WPSL) that does not include WJE pilots.

And recall that Kaplan ordered that anyone who was hired after the Swoop pilots integration were to be added behind them, at the BOTL.


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Re: (25 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:55 am

I don't wish to be a conspiracy theorist, but (who was it that said you can disregard whatever was said prior to "but"?) I note the MEC Secretary - Treasurer, a person for whom I have great respect, chose to resign two days after Kaplan's June 8 Interim Order (above), and one day before the issuance of the Special Update (the one with Question 15) from the MEC on June 11. Question 15 and Answer 15 from the Special Update are somewhat problematic, and will be until release of the WPSL by Kaplan. I do hope the resignation had nothing to do with a disagreement over the wording of the Special Update, or with issues related to Kaplan's Order.

I only bring this up because the MEC Chairman was recalled seven days after the MEC Update of November 2, in which an LOU recognizing Encore pilots' seniority (with respect to the One List) was mentioned. I should be clear that I have no evidence that the resignation and the recall are related to the One List issue. The timing of the events merely makes me curious.

On November 23rd, the MEC committed to an update only every 14 days from here until the release of the CBA by Kaplan. This is unfortunate. Transparency regarding the MEC's intentions with respect to the proposed LOU and its promised presentation to management would be welcomed by WJE pilots, both current and former.

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Re: (25 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by Maritimer » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:24 pm

The fact is, John, that no one cares about the outcome like you think they do. Not even former encore pilots. If at the end and all goes as you say and you think you're right and that you've "won", you really haven't because no one cares about the same stupid BS that you do. No. One. Cares. And they don't care because even if they lose a few spots on the DOH list, they still gain a metric shit tonne in YOS, RIGs and numerous other areas. So please, on behalf of all of Canadian aviation and our comrades at WJ, shut up. No. One. Cares. Thats it. Over. Final. move on with your pathetic life.
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Re: (25 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by DropTanks » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:16 pm

.
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Re: (25 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by CaptainHaddock » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:28 pm

‘I don't wish to be a conspiracy theorist’

That’s the jewel I took out all those long winded posts. I beg to differ
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Re: (25 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by chainsaw » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:09 pm

Rotten apple, China exam , weedpro, green bastard , newcommercial pilot, schooner, etc etc....

You are a poison to the WestJet group and this industry. Thank you for perpetuating propaganda and bullshit for the last couple years, everyone really appreciates it. You are not a troll, but sad aviation slag.

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Re: (30 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:57 am

It is possible that the recall of the MEC Chairman might be related to the One List. The following email was sent from an LEC representative to a WJ Pilot who asked about the WPSL. This response was received at the end of October, approximately two weeks prior to the sacking of the MEC Chairman. The original email from the pilot had been forwarded to the LEC rep by the MEC Chairman for response.

Was the MEC open and honest with the LEC’s? Obviously the WPSL is not the same as the WPDL.

518ADE31-9FA1-48D6-9668-476D5171CCCF.png
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Re: (30 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by Lightchop » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:12 am

Someone needs to get westjet HR aware of Johns ranting on here. It doesn't represent what I would call a "mentally healthy" individual. Personally, I hope he's never my captain when I commute. Never know what could happen..... finally go off the deep end? No one knows.
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Re: (30 votes cast): WPSL Poll

Post by The Tenth Man » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:28 am

Lightchop wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:12 am
Someone needs to get westjet HR aware of Johns ranting on here. It doesn't represent what I would call a "mentally healthy" individual. Personally, I hope he's never my captain when I commute. Never know what could happen..... finally go off the deep end? No one knows.
That would be an ad hominem attack.

I would do the same thing I were you and I didn't have any response to the arguments I have posed here. I would attack the person posing the arguments because I'm not smart enough to challenge him. I get it. (You have lots of company.)

John
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