China_CAAC's Merged Threads

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Post Reply
RidersRule
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:21 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by RidersRule » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm

Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by aerobod » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm

RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by eyebrow737 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
---------- ADS -----------
  

True North
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by True North » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Then why did you come back? I'm not being facetious I am generally curious. If things are so much better abroad, why come back and accept working conditions that are "criminal".
---------- ADS -----------
  

True North
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by True North » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:24 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:47 pm
We can disagree just fine on it. I think comparing yourself to others next door doing a similar job are fair comparisons,
No it's not a fair comparison, for the reasons I previously stated, not to mention a population base 10x that of Canada. We will have to agree to disagree.
I get it, you're anti-union, take what you get from management, are happy to settle because they must know best... good luck...

Dangerous to make assumptions. My feelings about unions are not at all pertinent to the discussion. I don't work for WestJet, never have and I've been retired for a while now. I'm just an impartial observer with no stake in the game although I used to be a huge WestJet booster. Not so much now.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:31 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Please provide your facts with a good analysis, then we can discuss them. Rhetoric has no value. I’ve also worked around the world in my career and choose Canada as my home as I believe it has the best balance of lifestyle, financial compensation and moral compass
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by eyebrow737 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am

True North wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Then why did you come back? I'm not being facetious I am generally curious. If things are so much better abroad, why come back and accept working conditions that are "criminal".
As with every expat, I have a wife that wanted to come back to be with her family. That's my story. Do you not believe that 42k starting at Canada is detrimental to Canadian aviation.

As to aerobud, I don't believe you on your experience. You say you were in management at WestJet (which would explain your biase). If indeed you are a pilot, how long have you been at WestJet?

Were you flying for majors overseas, Europe? The argument you make is not my experience, more is it the experience of most other expats on know.

I'm not interested in debating the specifics with you, I just call BS when I see it. If you feel that Canadian aviation is middle of the pack then so be it.

If you are now retired it would seem as you don't have a dog in this fight anymore anyway.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cjet
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:26 pm
Location: yyc

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by cjet » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:52 am

I don’t believe Aerobod is a pilot. That might put some perspective on his arguments.

Cjet
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:16 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am
True North wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:08 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:57 am
Aerobud, you obviously have no understanding of rates of pay and benefits of companies overseas apart from what you find on the internet. Any of us can find internet 'facts' to support our argument, but as someone who worked 20 years as an expat in Asia, the ME and Europe, I can tell you the numbers you provide differ from on the ground reality.

Coming back to Canada, shocked me. Combining the cost of living with salaries, the current state is appalling. $55k ($42K USD!!!!) starting at Canadians mainline airline is nothing short of criminal.
Then why did you come back? I'm not being facetious I am generally curious. If things are so much better abroad, why come back and accept working conditions that are "criminal".
As with every expat, I have a wife that wanted to come back to be with her family. That's my story. Do you not believe that 42k starting at Canada is detrimental to Canadian aviation.

As to aerobud, I don't believe you on your experience. You say you were in management at WestJet (which would explain your biase). If indeed you are a pilot, how long have you been at WestJet?

Were you flying for majors overseas, Europe? The argument you make is not my experience, more is it the experience of most other expats on know.

I'm not interested in debating the specifics with you, I just call BS when I see it. If you feel that Canadian aviation is middle of the pack then so be it.

If you are now retired it would seem as you don't have a dog in this fight anymore anyway.
I'm not a pilot (other than flying gliders when I was younger), never have been, never have claimed to be (although I decided not to pursue a career in the RAF as had some of my classmates in Uni, as there didn't seem to be enough intellectual stimulation relative to the aeronautical research job I picked instead). I started my career in the late 70s in aeronautical engineering and have worked in both IT and aircraft related industries in the UK / EU, Canada and US ever since.

One of the IT disciplines I managed at WestJet and have been involved with in my consulting career is data analytics. I respect that you have some point knowledge of specific salaries in specific circumstances, but the data available across all companies and countries tells a different story. One reason to become an ex-pat in another country is to gain a higher salary or career progression, this means not selecting the companies that are at the bottom end of the scale for salary, so there is a built in bias towards employers who are paying the higher wages. I haven't got much time to select individual salary data points for jobs posted currently, but here is an entry FO job with Flybe (54 Q400s in fleet of 78), to compare with FO entry into WestJet Encore or Jazz: https://www.flybe.com/careers/pilots/firstofficer. Starting salary of £29K / USD$38K / CAD$49K.

One thing from a pilot perspective that is problematic is the requirement to start at the bottom of the scale when moving companies when not working contract jobs. There is going to be more variability in both the top and bottom end of salaries across countries, which the data available doesn't illuminate, but the mass averaging across all airlines for all pilot positions for a given country still gives a good indication of compensation to the profession as a whole, leaving Canada mid-pack relative to the G7 countries. Perhaps there needs to be more compression across the salary range, so average pay stays the same at about CAD$125K (for all commercial pilots across all types), but entry level is boosted and top level is reduced, leading to the same lifetime earnings, but with less of a struggle at the beginning?

I don't have a dog in the fight as you say, but accuracy of information and reasoned debate and support of the industry I love (for all players, not just one group) is important. Rhetoric without fact just leads us into chaos devoid of reason, one just has to turn attention to the South to see what that means. I'm glad I'm a Canadian.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyzam
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by flyzam » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:33 pm

aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:53 pm
flyzam wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:07 pm
aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:15 pm

I retired from WestJet earlier this year, so I’m not an employee now, but I have a lot of familiarity with turn management.

I’m not sure what your background is in Operations Research when applied to turn management, but I managed that team at WestJet for a couple of years. Cleaners coming on board do slow down the turn. Bearing in mind adverse weather effects, so best to compare airlines in summer months, but WestJet and Lean applied to turn management has put it in a position of being in the top few airlines in North America for both aircraft utilization and OTP. Turns can be achieved in 25 mins if necessary. Have you looked at multiple years of turn data for multiple airlines? Typically you won’t have meaningful turn data without about 20 data points for every airport served for every day of the year, or about 800,000 records for WestJet, anything less is just anecdotal and pretty meaningless.

I’ve done some work with both Delta at their Hartsfield base and their software supplier for turn management, Delta has the best turn management of the majors, but longer turn times for comparable aircraft than WestJet and quite a bit lower aircraft utilization. Air Canada struggles with consistent turns and has both poor OTP and aircraft utilization at the same time.

Head-to-head with Air Canada, WestJet still has a couple of cents lower CASM on a stage length adjusted basis of approx 1000 miles, so equivalent ticket prices allow WestJet to make a profit when Air Canada is losing money on the same route with comparable equipment. Over the past couple of years Air Canada has driven most of its profit on international routes where WestJet doesn’t currently compete.
Respectfully, I have not worked in any 'turn management' capacity, however I have flown wide and narrow bodies in Asia, Europe and Australia.

A sub 30 minute turn is standard in most low cost airlines with most < 737-700 and < A320 in most airports. Nothing special there, and even though we all helped occasionally to speed things up I have never seen it as a pilots duty before.

One doesn't have to wonder out loud why salaries and benefits here are the worst in the first world when Canada have pilots boasting about writing up retirees for not cleaning out garbage.

For the person that said it has helped reduce costs it certainly hasn't helped reduce fares even compared to large mass countries with small populations like oz.

That must be some tasty coolaid y'all drinking
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries. Here is one major salary comparison web site that is well regarded, feel free to provide your own comparison
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/bro ... line-pilot:

All values are for commercial pilots base average salary converted to CAD:

Canada $121,408
Australia $163,459
France $116,557
Germany $141,350
Italy $116,778
Japan $164,927
Spain $72,281
UK $114,026
US $153,871

Fares in Canada are skewed massively by taxes, what the airline charges is not as different as you would think, here is an analysis I did a while back in another post, feel free to provide your own analysis:

“From the perspective of what people pay for a ticket (besides taxes that are not shown on the revenue side for airlines), the yield will give a direct comparison of how much an airline charges for their average stage length, i.e. what the consumer actually pays to the airline on average. It is interesting when doing a comparison between Spirit Airlines and WestJet that these values are quite similar.

Spirit Airlines is generally seen as the most cost and price concious ULCC in North America, For full year 2015 it had a yield of 11.9 US cents per mile on an average stage length of 987 miles(http://ir.spirit.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=953924. Average revenue per passenger US$117

WestJet had a yield of 14.1 US cents (18.72 Canadian) in 2015 on an average stage length of 910 miles https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-web/d ... 2015AR.pdf. Average revenue per guest/passenger US$128

As Spirit uses a seat pitch of 28" on most of it's seats now, if WestJet increased the -800 seat count from 168 to 189 (Ryanair 30" config) and increased the average stage length to that similar to Spirit, it's yield would also be around 12 cents US with an average revenue per guest of US$114”

I don’t drink Koolaid myself, I find facts are much better for my mind.
Aerobod - just because you pull 'facts' of a website does not mean they are facts. Just because you pull 'facts' of the internet does not mean that you are the guardian of truth and everyone else speaks with hyperbole.

Let me present some 'facts':

Average Airline pilot: All wildly different, and most likely none of the accurate - similar to your example I suspect.

and thats only from a quick first search of google. You can sit there and say your numbers are more factual than my numbers and try to dissect them and I can do they same.

The real fact of pilot salaries is than none of us can know for sure except for the individual, company, government and probably unions who will publish that information in entirely different ways if at all.

You say that Canada average is $121,408 - I can tell you that one company flying widebodies in Canada, no first officer came close to that. I would estimate only 40% of the captains were above that. There is no way that the average in that one company that pays about half of what someone in the US does comes close to what you claim.

It is my gut - base experience is that the average salary in Canada would be around $85,000. That would include the 172 instructors up to a 777 Left Seat.

Only my gut mind you. My gut also tells me having worked as a pilot around the world, with on the ground experience, that including one month vacations to start with, better fatigue rules, higher salaries, and a lower cost of living, leaving more money left over, that there is much room for improvement here.

You wouldn't have shares in Westjet would you? have an vested interest in keeping salaries low? :roll:

ps. if you are going to compare times and yields, maybe Southwest would be a better comparison. They after all are the role model for WJ not Spirit which is more akin to Swoop.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:06 pm

flyzam wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:33 pm
aerobod wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:53 pm
flyzam wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:07 pm


Respectfully, I have not worked in any 'turn management' capacity, however I have flown wide and narrow bodies in Asia, Europe and Australia.

A sub 30 minute turn is standard in most low cost airlines with most < 737-700 and < A320 in most airports. Nothing special there, and even though we all helped occasionally to speed things up I have never seen it as a pilots duty before.

One doesn't have to wonder out loud why salaries and benefits here are the worst in the first world when Canada have pilots boasting about writing up retirees for not cleaning out garbage.

For the person that said it has helped reduce costs it certainly hasn't helped reduce fares even compared to large mass countries with small populations like oz.

That must be some tasty coolaid y'all drinking
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries. Here is one major salary comparison web site that is well regarded, feel free to provide your own comparison
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/bro ... line-pilot:

All values are for commercial pilots base average salary converted to CAD:

Canada $121,408
Australia $163,459
France $116,557
Germany $141,350
Italy $116,778
Japan $164,927
Spain $72,281
UK $114,026
US $153,871

Fares in Canada are skewed massively by taxes, what the airline charges is not as different as you would think, here is an analysis I did a while back in another post, feel free to provide your own analysis:

“From the perspective of what people pay for a ticket (besides taxes that are not shown on the revenue side for airlines), the yield will give a direct comparison of how much an airline charges for their average stage length, i.e. what the consumer actually pays to the airline on average. It is interesting when doing a comparison between Spirit Airlines and WestJet that these values are quite similar.

Spirit Airlines is generally seen as the most cost and price concious ULCC in North America, For full year 2015 it had a yield of 11.9 US cents per mile on an average stage length of 987 miles(http://ir.spirit.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=953924. Average revenue per passenger US$117

WestJet had a yield of 14.1 US cents (18.72 Canadian) in 2015 on an average stage length of 910 miles https://www.westjet.com/assets/wj-web/d ... 2015AR.pdf. Average revenue per guest/passenger US$128

As Spirit uses a seat pitch of 28" on most of it's seats now, if WestJet increased the -800 seat count from 168 to 189 (Ryanair 30" config) and increased the average stage length to that similar to Spirit, it's yield would also be around 12 cents US with an average revenue per guest of US$114”

I don’t drink Koolaid myself, I find facts are much better for my mind.
Aerobod - just because you pull 'facts' of a website does not mean they are facts. Just because you pull 'facts' of the internet does not mean that you are the guardian of truth and everyone else speaks with hyperbole.

Let me present some 'facts':

Average Airline pilot: All wildly different, and most likely none of the accurate - similar to your example I suspect.

and thats only from a quick first search of google. You can sit there and say your numbers are more factual than my numbers and try to dissect them and I can do they same.

The real fact of pilot salaries is than none of us can know for sure except for the individual, company, government and probably unions who will publish that information in entirely different ways if at all.

You say that Canada average is $121,408 - I can tell you that the last company I worked flying widebodies in Canada, no first officer came close to that. I would estimate only 40% of the captains were above that. There is no way that the average in that one company that pays about half of what someone in the US does comes close to what you claim.

It is my gut - base experience is that the average salary in Canada would be around $85,000. That would include the 172 instructors up to a 777 Left Seat.

Only my gut mind you. My gut also tells me having worked as a pilot around the world, with on the ground experience, that including one month vacations to start with, better fatigue rules, higher salaries, and a lower cost of living, leaving more money left over, that there is much room for improvement here.

You wouldn't have shares in Westjet would you? have an vested interest in keeping salaries low? :roll:

ps. if you are going to compare times and yields, maybe Southwest would be a better comparison. They after all are the role model for WJ not Spirit which is more akin to Swoop.
I don't profess to be the standard or hold the standard, debate is good and more info can stoke that debate. One assumption I have made is that we are comparing compensation for "Commercial Airline Pilots" which covers airline captains and first officers. A few comments on your data sources:

Government of Canada data is normalised to a rate for a normal working week so 40*52*hourly_rate, so is ~$85K for all types of pilot (Commercial, fixed wing, helicopter, flight school, etc) going by the info they provide.

Payscale show the median for a US pilot of $90,196US, and for the UK of £61,238. It is not clear in how they get their data, but if they don't use surveys to employees and employers and rely just on jobs posted on line, their data is quite incomplete.

Glassdoor also show an additional average bonus of $36,000, to take the total average compensation to $152,829, which would correlate with Air Canada having the highest average.

Living in Canada averages all pilot professions, like the Government data, and posts an average hourly rate assuming 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year, so should read $76K for Toronto. Most likely they just re-packaging old Government data.

Neuvoo seems to be just Canada, and provide an average for pilot categories such as "Spray Pilot". "Airline Pilot" and "Air Balloon Pilot", likely just averaging salaries of online jobs where the keyword is "Pilot"

Overall I think these sites are explainable in why there are large differences and I do know the ERI data is well regarded as a salary data source, as is Glassdoor due to it's vast web data source, even if it's survey sources are more limited than ERI. Other sources that have good salary data are Mercer and Robert Half. All four of these companies have a vested interest in accurate data worldwide, as corporations pay them to get detailed relocation salary and employment costs to ensure they post competitive salaries for new positions.

Salaries, benefits and profit share for employees at WestJet totalled $981,938,000 for 11,089 FTEs in 2017, giving compensation of $88,500 per full time equivalent employee. The senior management (~100 people at Director and above), accounted for somewhat less than 5% of the total, the pilot group was the biggest proportion of the compensation for any single group and CSAs, FAs, contact centre employees, etc are all included in that average and are paid far less than the average pilot, but together account for more than half of employees. The same analysis at Air Canada shows salaries, wages and benefits of $2,671,000,000 for 28,300 FTEs in 2017, giving compensation of $94,400 per full time equivalent employee, I would be surprised if pilots at Air Canada were paid at the average employee level, basically because of a similar employee distribution as at WestJet. I don't think it is possible for the average pilot compensation at WestJet and Air Canada to be anything less than $100K and by the average corporate wages being driven by a large number of low wage customer service positions, it has to be quite a bit higher than that. With Air Canada / Jazz and WestJet / Encore / Swoop accounting for more than 80% of commercial airline pilots in Canada, I still believe $121K is a realistic average wage.

The Spirit comparison was actually started a couple of years ago to compare revenue per passenger for the same segment length, some one just brought it into the salary comparison in this thread, I only intended that comparison to show that it is the taxes and fees not the airline that are driving much higher ticket prices in Canada.

Oh and yes, I do have WestJet shares and have sold some on a regular basis in the past, but I don't think there are many WestJet employees or retirees who don't. My investing philosophy has been to look for long term success, so any one cost or event is unlikely to prompt me to sell, I'm looking for share price increases due to successful international expansion over the next 10 years.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TFTMB heavy
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 322
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:58 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by TFTMB heavy » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:07 pm

Regardless of what info you can dig up on line and debate till the cows come home, ALPA has all the data and they can shower you with comparisons from hourly pay rates to work rules and then some.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Transonic
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Transonic » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:07 pm

aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Hi Aerobod,

Thanks for the input.

I'm far from an expert however "First Contract Arbitration" is not a perfect example of the present situation. Part of the agreement between APLA and WestJet leading into mediation/interest based arbitration was that all previous agreed to items are to stand. The big ticket item being 1:1 YOS plus a few small others like hotels, STD/LTD and wording on trip and duty rigs (yet no numbers). Communications from both WestJet FLTOPS and ALPA state the outstanding issues are Scope and Swoop working conditions.

Our lead negotiator stated in early June that WestJet agreed early to 1:1 YOS theorizing that Swoop would cannibalize 737 block hours at the same amount that the 787s would add thus minimizing the effect.

As another posted stated, the arbitrator is not interested in Delta/Spirit wages nor is he interested in Flair/Sunwing wages. He is mainly interested in similar scope operations, namely Air Canada and Rouge.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
aerobod
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by aerobod » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:55 pm

Transonic wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:07 pm
aerobod wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 pm
RidersRule wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 pm
Aerobud u said...

“bringing the WestJet year 12 captain total compensation to $292K at 80 hours or $301K at the maximum 82.5 hours before overtime -“

That would be with no YOS, so a 12 year Captain could be in year 20 with the company.

I have been at WestJet for 12 years and make no where’s near that. (About 205). Although that might be changing as rumour has it 1:1 YOS has been agreed upon.
No YOS assumption from me, yes could be someone who has been there for more than 12 years, I was assuming a captain for 12 years, I.e. the top of the current captain scale. I’m also assuming that all the scales will change in the CBA, including YOS as likely, I think the total pilot cost to WestJet will not change significantly based on first union contract arbitration history in Canada, but there are lots of creative re-mixing of the compensation that can be done that will give both sides some wins and some compromises.
Hi Aerobod,

Thanks for the input.

I'm far from an expert however "First Contract Arbitration" is not a perfect example of the present situation. Part of the agreement between APLA and WestJet leading into mediation/interest based arbitration was that all previous agreed to items are to stand. The big ticket item being 1:1 YOS plus a few small others like hotels, STD/LTD and wording on trip and duty rigs (yet no numbers). Communications from both WestJet FLTOPS and ALPA state the outstanding issues are Scope and Swoop working conditions.

Our lead negotiator stated in early June that WestJet agreed early to 1:1 YOS theorizing that Swoop would cannibalize 737 block hours at the same amount that the 787s would add thus minimizing the effect.

As another posted stated, the arbitrator is not interested in Delta/Spirit wages nor is he interested in Flair/Sunwing wages. He is mainly interested in similar scope operations, namely Air Canada and Rouge.
They are all reasonable expectations. I think the final contract will be reasonable to both sides with a number of compromises likely to meet in the middle. From the limited amount I have heard Kaplan seems to be an un-biased arbitrator who won’t favour one party over the other.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Diadem » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:34 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am
As with every expat, I have a wife that wanted to come back to be wih her family. That's my story. Do you not believe that 42k starting at Canada is detrimental to Canadian aviation.
So you're saying that you had larger motivations than money? And that perhaps pilots in Canada are willing to accept lower wages than elsewhere in the world to live in a stable democracy with their families in the places where they grew up? That's why wages are lower here than overseas: there are more Canadian pilots who want to live in Canada than in other countries. You can blame the companies all you want, but if there weren't pilots accepting jobs for 42k then wages would go up. The fact of the matter is that we have to prioritize what we want in life; some people prioritize income and leave Canada, while others are willing to make less money to keep living the lifestyle they have here. The fact that you've re-ordered your priorities and decided that you want to live here again doesn't entitle you to anything. You're making a conscious decision to come back to this country, knowing full-well that you'll make less money. The airlines don't owe you shit, because if you won't take the job for what they're paying they'll find someone else who will. There's no reason for them to give you more money, just because you're a special little snowflake. If you lived in Fort Mac and made $100000 as a welder, but you decided to move to Vancouver because you really liked the climate and the scenery, who could you blame but yourself when you took a 50% pay cut? You could wail and gnash your teeth, but at the end of the day you chose lifestyle over income.
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by eyebrow737 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 am

Diadem wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:34 pm
]
You could wail and gnash your teeth, but at the end of the day you chose lifestyle over income.
Well that is one long confused rant.

I moved from Australia. Stable democracy, fantastic lifestyle, much better pay.

What makes you assume that Canada has a better lifestyle than everyone else? Trudeau been telling you that?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Diadem » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:34 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 am
I moved from Australia. Stable democracy, fantastic lifestyle, much better pay.

What makes you assume that Canada has a better lifestyle than everyone else? Trudeau been telling you that?
I was explaining market forces, but of course that went right over your head. I was trying to get you to understand that, just like for you, most of the pilots who choose to stay in or return to Canada do so for reasons other than income. That depresses wages. If you want to come back here, you're going to have to sacrifice income for a specific lifestyle, and no one owes you anything because you're the Great and Mighty eyebrow737, Skygod! Not only that, but the fact that you're returning to Canada despite your apparent disdain for the current government (which I never once mentioned, so you obviously spend way too much time thinking about Trudeau) indicates that you're willing to sacrifice income and a government that would be more to your liking in order to live here. This is still more evidence which demonstrates why wages are lower here than in other countries: there is something very appealing about living in Canada, for you and everyone else who chose to stay here. Since that's the case, you, personally, are contributing to lower incomes for pilots here, so quit your bitching.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Rezy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:03 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Rezy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 am

Diadem wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:34 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 am
I moved from Australia. Stable democracy, fantastic lifestyle, much better pay.

What makes you assume that Canada has a better lifestyle than everyone else? Trudeau been telling you that?
I was explaining market forces, but of course that went right over your head. I was trying to get you to understand that, just like for you, most of the pilots who choose to stay in or return to Canada do so for reasons other than income. That depresses wages. If you want to come back here, you're going to have to sacrifice income for a specific lifestyle, and no one owes you anything because you're the Great and Mighty eyebrow737, Skygod! Not only that, but the fact that you're returning to Canada despite your apparent disdain for the current government (which I never once mentioned, so you obviously spend way too much time thinking about Trudeau) indicates that you're willing to sacrifice income and a government that would be more to your liking in order to live here. This is still more evidence which demonstrates why wages are lower here than in other countries: there is something very appealing about living in Canada, for you and everyone else who chose to stay here. Since that's the case, you, personally, are contributing to lower incomes for pilots here, so quit your bitching.


The low pay in Canada is a number of things but I believe primarily due to two things: 10-15 year payscales and having only 2 major airlines for employee competition.
If we had 4 year pay scales, there would be lots of people choosing to move between AC and WJ, enhancing supply and demand, rather than a pilot being “locked in” to one airline because of huge pay scale ranges. It would create an actual competitive market because we could move to another airline easily, without taking a massive pay cut, because, in 4 short years you would be at the top of the pay scale.
Having only 2 major airlines also limits supply and demand as a duopoly is able to suppress working conditions better than 10. Its currently seen as a carrot to WJ Pilots because of a commuting policy, if there were more airlines such a small policy difference would not be considered a carrot.

But the unions don’t want to change the pay scales and the company doesn’t want to allow more airlines into the mix, so regardless of what the union types say, wages will not significantly improve in Canada until we can get competitive supply and demand tactics for pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by cloak » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:04 am

Diadem wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:34 am
... This is still more evidence which demonstrates why wages are lower here than in other countries: there is something very appealing about living in Canada, for you and everyone else who chose to stay here. Since that's the case, you, personally, are contributing to lower incomes for pilots here, so quit your bitching.
That's too much assumption on behalf of "everyone"; rather "Canadians" simply want to come back so that their kids can grow up close to their relatives. The same can be true of Americans, Australians, French, etc. that want to go back to their home country, yet that does not suppress the wages in those places. Wages in Canada are suppressed because of supply and demand, in other words market forces. Similar situation existed in the U.S until recently when pilot requirements changed for airlines plus there was substantial growth, and now entry wages are in the 80's with some airlines offering other incentives such as signing bonus and recognition of previous part 121 experience. The same will happen in Canada when similar conditions appear. Chief among them would be the requirement for an ATPL to fly for 705 airlines. When that happens, there will be meaningful change in wages. Let's hope similar circumstances that caused it in U.S (Colgan crash) are not required to bring about that change.
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyzam
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by flyzam » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:37 am

ddd
---------- ADS -----------
  

flyzam
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by flyzam » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:43 am

aerobod wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:06 pm
Government of Canada data is normalised to a rate for a normal working week so 40*52*hourly_rate, so is ~$85K for all types of pilot (Commercial, fixed wing, helicopter, flight school, etc) going by the info they provide.
As I said we could all go on and on about all the details of the data providers and where they get the info from.

I'll go on what the government provides over some third party. As I said - approx $85000 would be the average pilot in my view.

Go talk to some pilots and you might get a better view than your statistics.
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by eyebrow737 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:46 am

Diadem wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:34 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 am
I moved from Australia. Stable democracy, fantastic lifestyle, much better pay.

What makes you assume that Canada has a better lifestyle than everyone else? Trudeau been telling you that?
I was explaining market forces, but of course that went right over your head. I was trying to get you to understand that, just like for you, most of the pilots who choose to stay in or return to Canada do so for reasons other than income. That depresses wages. If you want to come back here, you're going to have to sacrifice income for a specific lifestyle, and no one owes you anything because you're the Great and Mighty eyebrow737, Skygod! Not only that, but the fact that you're returning to Canada despite your apparent disdain for the current government (which I never once mentioned, so you obviously spend way too much time thinking about Trudeau) indicates that you're willing to sacrifice income and a government that would be more to your liking in order to live here. This is still more evidence which demonstrates why wages are lower here than in other countries: there is something very appealing about living in Canada, for you and everyone else who chose to stay here. Since that's the case, you, personally, are contributing to lower incomes for pilots here, so quit your bitching.
Now now junior, time to take a Vicodin and a cup of tea. It seems as if your explanation has gone over my head. Can you explain to me what lifestyle that canada has that is better than Australia, New Zealand and many other countries? Plenty of Canadians in Australia.

As mentioned I came back to be with my wife and kids. It was either that or giving them up - and no way that is going to happen. Not for this all glorious lifestyle you keep mentioning.

Now I'm not saying that lifestyle here, isn't bad, in fact it is pretty good, consistently ranked in the top of the world with Scandinavia, New Zealand and Australia.

What I am trying to point out is that the market forces are corrupt here. Whether it be the cell phones, airlines, banks or anything else. Goods and services are more expensive than similar countries and salaries are low. People like you are being screwed and people like you bend over and take it with some axle grease and a smile on your face saying how lucky we are.

Let me give you an example:

October 25th travel

Take a look at a trip from Montreal to YYZ on https://www.google.fr/flights#flt=YUL.Y ... 1;t:f;tt:o
Distance 504 km
Two players. Westjet (with its grooming crew to help cut costs) and Air Canada.
Both exactly the same. $341 each flight Does this mean their costs and markup are exactly the same? I doubt it. Exactly the same price Obviously market forces at play (though still way over my head)

Lets look at Australia - Sydney to Melbourne https://www.google.fr/flights#flt=LHR./ ... 1;t:f;tt:o
Distance: 713 Km
4 players
Ranging $109 upwards. Each operator having a different price again driven by market forces: https://www.google.fr/flights#flt=SYD./ ... 1;t:f;tt:o

NZ - Auckland to Wellington - https://www.google.fr/flights#flt=AKL.W ... 1;t:f;tt:o
Distance: 494 km
Only two players (it is nz only of course)
Low and behold, prices starting at $107 there with both operators offering different prices upwards.

London - Berlin https://www.google.fr/flights#flt=/m/04 ... 1;t:f;tt:o
Distance 932km
Also from $90 up. Plenty of players (obviously it is europe) but EACH one having a different price

Wow, isn't competition a wonderful thing? low prices and each company actually competes with each other.

Ok, you say but canada is different, yes it is different and has different drivers, however the fact that there is only two operators, compared to 4 in australia (which also has a large land mass and small population - far smaller than canada for that fact) both with exactly the same prices should smell a little fishy? shouldn't it?

Cases like this are abound, I'm not 'bitching' about canada, I'm arguing that things can and should be a lot better than it is. Pilot salaries and benefits being one of them.

If you can put your spit covered flag waving patriotism away for a second you might actually see that. and BTW can you explain to me what lifestyle canada has than any of those examples don't have?

nb. If those links don't work plug them in yourself into google flights.

ps. no I won't stop by bitching, but thank you for the kind offer.
pps, try breaking up your one paragraph. might make it easier to read.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by eyebrow737 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

munzil
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by munzil » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:00 pm

Diadem wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:34 am
I was explaining market forces, but of course that went right over your head. I was trying to get you to understand that, just like for you, most of the pilots who choose to stay in or return to Canada do so for reasons other than income. That depresses wages.
Pilots return to Canada keep the wages down??! ROLF As in only Canadian pilots return to their home countries. If you were trying to appear knowledgeable about microeconomic theory, you failed miserably.

Is there anything else you want to share with us you learned from running your lemonade stand?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Diadem
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: A sigma left of the top of the bell curve

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by Diadem » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:30 pm

munzil wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:00 pm
Pilots return to Canada keep the wages down??! ROLF As in only Canadian pilots return to their home countries. If you were trying to appear knowledgeable about microeconomic theory, you failed miserably.

Is there anything else you want to share with us you learned from running your lemonade stand?
So you think more pilots applying for the same number of jobs won't depress wages? Remarkable! Please submit your findings to the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences for consideration for next year's prize.
Since no one has addressed my analogy, I'll pose it again: If you lived in Fort Mac and made $100000 as a welder, but you decided to move to Vancouver because you really liked the climate and the scenery, who could you blame but yourself when you took a 50% pay cut? A ridiculous number of people want to live in Vancouver, despite unfavourable economic conditions, so there is more competition for jobs and wages are thus depressed. I've seen several news articles with interviews from residents of Metro Vancouver complaining about low wages, but when they were asked why they didn't move to places where they could make more they've scoffed at the notion of living somewhere without the mountains and ocean and great sushi so close. It's ridiculous that these people expect to be paid Fort Mac wages while living in Vancouver, and it's ridiculous that pilots demand to be paid Dubai wages while living in Toronto.
As far as AC and WJ are concerned, a 1500 hr pilot is just as valuable as a 15000 pilot: they'll both be trained to a standard, and they'll both be contained in such a rigid environment that they'll likely never get into real trouble where another 10000 hours of experience would make the difference. Statistically speaking, emergencies are extremely uncommon, and everything is planned out so well that it's highly improbable anything unexpected will happen during a pilot's career. As far as the airlines are concerned, they don't care if you have 30000 hours of 777 PIC, because you're never going to have to dead-stick onto an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Pacific after losing both engines to freak meteor strikes. All you need is the ability to confirm that the dispatcher has planned the flight appropriately, which you should if you have an ATPL, and the ability to adhere to the SOPs. If that's not going to work for you because you're a Skygod who deserves more money after being an expat, they'll PFO you and hire the 1500-hour pilot behind you in line. No one owes you anything, and if you choose to live in a country with lower wages don't expect any empathy when you complain about it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

munzil
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 am

Re: SWOOP OTS Captains punted from left seat...

Post by munzil » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:30 pm

Diadem wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:30 pm
munzil wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:00 pm
Pilots return to Canada keep the wages down??! ROLF As in only Canadian pilots return to their home countries. If you were trying to appear knowledgeable about microeconomic theory, you failed miserably.

Is there anything else you want to share with us you learned from running your lemonade stand?
So you think more pilots applying for the same number of jobs won't depress wages? Remarkable! Please submit your findings to the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences for consideration for next year's prize.
Since no one has addressed my analogy, I'll pose it again: If you lived in Fort Mac and made $100000 as a welder, but you decided to move to Vancouver because you really liked the climate and the scenery, who could you blame but yourself when you took a 50% pay cut? A ridiculous number of people want to live in Vancouver, despite unfavourable economic conditions, so there is more competition for jobs and wages are thus depressed. I've seen several news articles with interviews from residents of Metro Vancouver complaining about low wages, but when they were asked why they didn't move to places where they could make more they've scoffed at the notion of living somewhere without the mountains and ocean and great sushi so close. It's ridiculous that these people expect to be paid Fort Mac wages while living in Vancouver, and it's ridiculous that pilots demand to be paid Dubai wages while living in Toronto.
As far as AC and WJ are concerned, a 1500 hr pilot is just as valuable as a 15000 pilot: they'll both be trained to a standard, and they'll both be contained in such a rigid environment that they'll likely never get into real trouble where another 10000 hours of experience would make the difference. Statistically speaking, emergencies are extremely uncommon, and everything is planned out so well that it's highly improbable anything unexpected will happen during a pilot's career. As far as the airlines are concerned, they don't care if you have 30000 hours of 777 PIC, because you're never going to have to dead-stick onto an aircraft carrier in the middle of the Pacific after losing both engines to freak meteor strikes. All you need is the ability to confirm that the dispatcher has planned the flight appropriately, which you should if you have an ATPL, and the ability to adhere to the SOPs. If that's not going to work for you because you're a Skygod who deserves more money after being an expat, they'll PFO you and hire the 1500-hour pilot behind you in line. No one owes you anything, and if you choose to live in a country with lower wages don't expect any empathy when you complain about it.
I was gonna answer your monolithic rant against expats, then thought to myself..."nahfukit"
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”