China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[jjj]

Admittedly I did accept it as a “term” when I was hired 15 years ago. It was a much different time and not the present environment taken for granted by your typical millennial.

AC wasn’t hiring everybody and 5000 hours barely got you noticed at WestJet. That’s right kids - aviation as it is now that is handed to you on a silver platter is still very much a new thing.

Time passes and the culture changes - some for the good and some for the bad. On the good side is this enlightenment about what is required and what is not. Turns out that grooming never was.

I didn’t start this mess but I’m part of the solution.

I like the joke about the janitor above BTW.

Cheers.

JJJ

[eyebrow737]

So WestJet and Jetsgo types are out for reasons stated above.

The Swoop guys who wear gloves and undercut us all for the worst WAWCON in the industry are in.

Your position is clearly hypocritical.

FWIW - I don’t groom in front of guests.

Cheers.

JJJ

Only 27 years JJJ, you're still a youngen. If so I'm sure you don't remember the challenges we had in the 80s against air nova and Ontario iland the rest in the 80s. And all since then. Then WestJet came along and continued the fight against pilots as we saw it. You were probably all chuffed to get a job with WestJet, agreeing to the low wacon and undercutting what others worked hard for. Perspective is a funny thing isn't it.

The past 20 years as an expat has given me some view of what we are missing out here in Canada.

As to my hypocrisy, you just might have missed my poiint. It is that we have all in some way undercut our fellow pilots in advancing our career. Many have justified it and few have realized it. Some of us have even offered to do other peoples jobs all in the notion of 'helping out'

My annoyance with you and your fellow westjetters is that you all believe yourselves the good guys with no understanding that you may also have been part of the problem as well, as we all. In the end, we try to do what is good for ourselves and our families without stepping on too many people along the way.

Any fanciful notion that you are doing the best to solve the issue that you helped create (unintentionally no doubt) may seem to some to be a little sanctimonious.

[.80@410]

Have a feeling we or anyone for that matter gets much outta you period. You must be proud!

Hmm I guess you succeeded in getting under my skin.


Because who in their right mind would champion working for free? Who that attaches any “value “ to their skill set would knock a co-worker who attaches value to theirs?

The idiocy of your post is mind numbing, but I guess it’s hard to come up with a logical argument for working for .. Free

[jjj]

Eyebrow,

Not a bad post.

When I started the dust had mostly settled and the new order of things was in place for a time. I could be wrong but nobody besides maybe AC and Canadian was making any money.

If I understand your inference, I see your point about just taking a job and perhaps not being cognizant that it would be harmful in the eyes of others. The difference being though if you’re drawing a parallel to views on Swoop is that they did have an alternative and they have full knowledge of harm done. They can in no way plead innocence.

WestJet slid under the radar while big blue and red were at each others throats. Lots of the guy that started at WS came from the embattled lands you speak of and despite rumour - it was better pastures. The old WS did a lot of things right in those days. Chief pilots were the tip of the spear for the pilots and less of the hammer they are today. As far as wawcon goes - nobody from that era complained.

Thanks for the perspective eyebrow. I believe your last post was forthright and a well thought out contribution to this thread. (No I am not being sarcastic.)

Cheers.

JF

[Demeter]

Have a feeling we or anyone for that matter gets much outta you period. You must be proud!

Hmm I guess you succeeded in getting under my skin.


Because who in their right mind would champion working for free? Who that attaches any “value “ to their skill set would knock a co-worker who attaches value to theirs?

The idiocy of your post is mind numbing, but I guess it’s hard to come up with a logical argument for working for .. Free

Mind numbing or not!
The problem is that when people tried to boost your self-esteem, they accidentally boosted your narcissism instead. Leaving you with the highest likelihood of having unmet expectations with respect to your career and the lowest levels of satisfaction with your career at the stage that you are at. You are who you are

[Schooner69A]

"...aircraft grooming is beneath my position..."

Reminds me of my days in TC when an Inspector puffed "I didn't join Transport Canada to work week-ends" when it was suggested that there could be a TC presence at various airports around the country at other than week days.

A misplaced sense of entitlement in both cases...

[munzil]

"...aircraft grooming is beneath my position..."

Reminds me of my days in TC when an Inspector puffed "I didn't join Transport Canada to work week-ends" when it was suggested that there could be a TC presence at various airports around the country at other than week days.

A misplaced sense of entitlement in both cases...

Who are you quoting schooner? No one said that is beneath them. We have all helped cleaned the plane (or wj doublespeak) "groomed" to help out

We have all slung bags, fueled planes, hell even cleaned planes twice each day to get the salt off. All these things to help out in a crunch or part of your duties in smaller operators.

The question is if the company is forcing you to do any of these things you are taking away someone else's job just so the company can save a buck and put more money in the shareholders and execs pocket. It is plain wrong to expect people to do multiple roles in a big company that takes away others livelihoods

So, who said it was beneath them? And secondly would you accept more duties such as slinging bags, cleaning the toilet, serving passengers food etc etc as part as an airline pilots role...where does it end?.

I mean it's not beneath you right?

[Schooner69A]

No, Sir; it's not beneath me. I've replenished the commissary, bought the newspapers, ordered the lunches, summonsed the taxis, paid for the taxis, schlepped the bags, served the snacks and drinks and groomed the aircraft... Hell; for $150000 -$200000 per annum, I'd baby sit the grand kids.


There have been remarks made on this thread and others, that having to go back and cross seat belts is beneath the image of a "front ender". Now relegated to the back end, I think more highly of the crew member who participates in the clean up of the cabin during a QTA and less highly of those who think it tarnishes their image.


As I said, some folks seem to assume a sense of entitlement with the donning of a set of airline wings and an airline jacket. The pretense not wanting to do those tasks because it "...takes away someone else's job" is just smoke.

Airline pilot does not equal prima donna...

PS In the interest of full disclosure, I have never been an airline pilot. Was accepted to Air Canada in '66 but turned it down because "I didn't want to drive a bus". Thirty years later, when I found out what my airline pension would have been, I lamented that "I shoulda drove the bus..."

[munzil]

No, Sir; it's not beneath me. I've replenished the commissary, bought the newspapers, ordered the lunches, summonsed the taxis, paid for the taxis, schlepped the bags, served the snacks and drinks and groomed the aircraft... Hell; for $150000 -$200000 per annum, I'd baby sit the grand kids.


There have been remarks made on this thread and others, that having to go back and cross seat belts is beneath the image of a "front ender". Now relegated to the back end, I think more highly of the crew member who participates in the clean up of the cabin during a QTA and less highly of those who think it tarnishes their image.


As I said, some folks seem to assume a sense of entitlement with the donning of a set of airline wings and an airline jacket. The pretense not wanting to do those tasks because it "...takes away someone else's job" is just smoke.

Airline pilot does not equal prima donna...

PS In the interest of full disclosure, I have never been an airline pilot. Was accepted to Air Canada in '66 but turned it down because "I didn't want to drive a bus". Thirty years later, when I found out what my airline pension would have been, I lamented that "I shoulda drove the bus..."

You're missing the point, which you haven't answered.

No one is arguing against helping out. We all have and all do. The issue is the company forcing you to do other peoples jobs so they can either fire or not hire those roles.

We all have different lines, but the argument that can be made is that that is unethical.

[aerobod]

No one is arguing against helping out. We all have and all do. The issue is the company forcing you to do other peoples jobs so they can either fire or not hire those roles.

We all have different lines, but the argument that can be made is that that is unethical.

At WestJet grooming by employees has never been about "stealing other people's jobs", The most important reason for employee grooming is to be able to start boarding the aircraft as soon as the last guest has left, employees spread throughout the aircraft can groom while guests are leaving, as opposed to waiting for the cleaning crew to come on board when the aisle(s) is clear. Typically 5 minutes can be saved in turn time, allowing tighter departure scheduling and better OTP. Not all turns will be tightly scheduled, but enough are that 5 mins saved is important, leading to about 15 mins per day of increased utilisation per aircraft, or about 3 aircraft less needed across the whole fleet to fulfil the committed flying, with the associated saving of aircraft ownership costs of $20m per year, irrespective of any other labour cost savings. Any cost saving is important from a competitive position, so helps secure everyone's job. The aircraft are still groomed by professional cleaning crews on long segments where turn times are high and at the end of the day.

Sometimes individual employees can't see the big picture, or why things are done in a certain way, but there is often a much better reason than "the system is out to screw us" or other ludicrous conspiracy theories.

[munzil]

No one is arguing against helping out. We all have and all do. The issue is the company forcing you to do other peoples jobs so they can either fire or not hire those roles.

We all have different lines, but the argument that can be made is that that is unethical.

At WestJet grooming by employees has never been about "stealing other people's jobs", The most important reason for employee grooming is to be able to start boarding the aircraft as soon as the last guest has left, employees spread throughout the aircraft can groom while guests are leaving, as opposed to waiting for the cleaning crew to come on board when the aisle(s) is clear. Typically 5 minutes can be saved in turn time, allowing tighter departure scheduling and better OTP. Not all turns will be tightly scheduled, but enough are that 5 mins saved is important, leading to about 15 mins per day of increased utilisation per aircraft, or about 3 aircraft less needed across the whole fleet to fulfil the committed flying, with the associated saving of aircraft ownership costs of $20m per year, irrespective of any other labour cost savings. Any cost saving is important from a competitive position, so helps secure everyone's job. The aircraft are still groomed by professional cleaning crews on long segments where turn times are high and at the end of the day.

Sometimes individual employees can't see the big picture, or why things are done in a certain way, but there is often a much better reason than "the system is out to screw us" or other ludicrous conspiracy theories.

We all know what you have been told

I've worked plenty of 737 jobs overseas and we could always do a turn in less than 30 minutes with cleaners.

Hell SW, has cleaners. Everyone has cleaners apart from wj. Has it saved you time over other much busier cheaper airlines? Are the ticket prices all cheaper than air Canada?

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

[J Roc]

Man, you guys really need to improve your groom drive. Just sayin'...

On occasion, when I see that my crew lack the required motivation to groom, I play these classic hits on the PA. They really seem to enjoy it!

You're welcome...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xHjSA2YYec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN4_i3s0nq4

[J Roc]

More appropriately though, this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whQQpwwvSh4

[aerobod]

No one is arguing against helping out. We all have and all do. The issue is the company forcing you to do other peoples jobs so they can either fire or not hire those roles.

We all have different lines, but the argument that can be made is that that is unethical.

At WestJet grooming by employees has never been about "stealing other people's jobs", The most important reason for employee grooming is to be able to start boarding the aircraft as soon as the last guest has left, employees spread throughout the aircraft can groom while guests are leaving, as opposed to waiting for the cleaning crew to come on board when the aisle(s) is clear. Typically 5 minutes can be saved in turn time, allowing tighter departure scheduling and better OTP. Not all turns will be tightly scheduled, but enough are that 5 mins saved is important, leading to about 15 mins per day of increased utilisation per aircraft, or about 3 aircraft less needed across the whole fleet to fulfil the committed flying, with the associated saving of aircraft ownership costs of $20m per year, irrespective of any other labour cost savings. Any cost saving is important from a competitive position, so helps secure everyone's job. The aircraft are still groomed by professional cleaning crews on long segments where turn times are high and at the end of the day.

Sometimes individual employees can't see the big picture, or why things are done in a certain way, but there is often a much better reason than "the system is out to screw us" or other ludicrous conspiracy theories.

We all know what you have been told

I've worked plenty of 737 jobs overseas and we could always do a turn in less than 30 minutes with cleaners.

Hell SW, has cleaners. Everyone has cleaners apart from wj. Has it saved you time over other much busier cheaper airlines? Are the ticket prices all cheaper than air Canada?

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

I retired from WestJet earlier this year, so I’m not an employee now, but I have a lot of familiarity with turn management.

I’m not sure what your background is in Operations Research when applied to turn management, but I managed that team at WestJet for a couple of years. Cleaners coming on board do slow down the turn. Bearing in mind adverse weather effects, so best to compare airlines in summer months, but WestJet and Lean applied to turn management has put it in a position of being in the top few airlines in North America for both aircraft utilization and OTP. Turns can be achieved in 25 mins if necessary. Have you looked at multiple years of turn data for multiple airlines? Typically you won’t have meaningful turn data without about 20 data points for every airport served for every day of the year, or about 800,000 records for WestJet, anything less is just anecdotal and pretty meaningless.

I’ve done some work with both Delta at their Hartsfield base and their software supplier for turn management, Delta has the best turn management of the majors, but longer turn times for comparable aircraft than WestJet and quite a bit lower aircraft utilization. Air Canada struggles with consistent turns and has both poor OTP and aircraft utilization at the same time.

Head-to-head with Air Canada, WestJet still has a couple of cents lower CASM on a stage length adjusted basis of approx 1000 miles, so equivalent ticket prices allow WestJet to make a profit when Air Canada is losing money on the same route with comparable equipment. Over the past couple of years Air Canada has driven most of its profit on international routes where WestJet doesn’t currently compete.

[Dream]

Thank you J. Roc!
Those videos were hilarious!
Cheers

[Schooner69A]

Thanks for that aerobod.

If someone thinks it beneath their station to police the stockade, just say so; don't be blowin' smoke in my face and telling me that it's because you think you're doing someone else out of a job...


Colonel Potter said it best...

[RVR6000]

How many turns will management or any other employee groups do in year compare to what the flight/cabin crews does. ‘Employees grooming’ is a great cover up for the reality of pilots and FAs grooming.

We’re usually held by up unloading/loading, 30 min turns quite possible.

[aerobod]

How many turns will management or any other employee groups do in year compare to what the flight/cabin crews does. ‘Employees grooming’ is a great cover up for the reality of pilots and FAs grooming.

We’re usually held by up unloading/loading, 30 min turns quite possible.

From an employee and retiree standby perspective, the average seems to be about 5 people per flight, but with a lot of variability, so on a -700 it should be about 50/50 split between crew and non-crew grooming. If non-crew employees or retirees on a given flight are not grooming, I would write them up.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

You make WJ retirees groom the plane? You have got to be joking....please tell me you are joking

[aerobod]

You make WJ retirees groom the plane? You have got to be joking....please tell me you are joking

Not joking, a condition of standby or discounted confirmed travel that retirees receive is to groom the aircraft. I’m one, I have no problem doing this, 5 rows in 5 mins at my slowest and waiting to move rows as guests deplane. One advantage of grooming on a flight for all non-operating people is that it can be used as an argument to the CRA that the discounted travel shouldn’t be treated as a taxable benefit, as some work was done as a condition of travel.