China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[FL320]

1500 hr pilot is just as valuable as a 15000 pilot: they'll both be trained to a standard, and they'll both be contained in such a rigid environment that they'll likely never get into real trouble where another 10000 hours of experience would make the difference. Statistically speaking, emergencies are extremely uncommon, and everything is planned out so well that it's highly improbable anything unexpected will happen during a pilot's career.

Yes...and who cares if something goes wrong as long as you and your loved ones are not in the aircraft when the shit happens

Diadem, just curious what is your total time and what kind of aircraft are you flying? Have you flown for an airline in international ops?
If you have a chance I would suggest you to also work as a sim instructor (like I have been doing for many years). I’ve been watching many different team making different decisions and trust me...you want that 15 000h PIC in front: they know that NOT acting like a robot and under the pressure of the rigid environment may save the day in some circumstances.

I would say that a 1500 hr pilot is just as valuable as a 15000 pilot for a cheap employer: they'll both be trained to the shitty standards of that employer.

[aerobod]

Government of Canada data is normalised to a rate for a normal working week so 40*52*hourly_rate, so is ~$85K for all types of pilot (Commercial, fixed wing, helicopter, flight school, etc) going by the info they provide.

As I said we could all go on and on about all the details of the data providers and where they get the info from.

I'll go on what the government provides over some third party. As I said - approx $85000 would be the average pilot in my view.

Go talk to some pilots and you might get a better view than your statistics.

The average pilot you have been talking to is obviously not at WestJet, as I know quite a few pilots there from before I retired from an IT strategy role there earlier this year. I also know a lot of people in Finance and the approximate salary position of each dept, as I was involved with corporate budgeting and data analysis for most of my 11.5 years there (but as that info is not public I can’t use it in any analysis I do).

Some generalizations of employee distribution in an airline similar to WestJet, although there will be some variability in areas where outsourcing is predominant, depending on corporate strategy, but at WestJet the only 2 areas that have significant outsourcing are TAC and now Air Supply:

Pilots - 20%
Flight Attendants - 30%
Airport Staff - 20%
Operations Support (inc Tech Ops / Maint, Compliance, Dispatch, Flight Ops, etc) - 10%
Contact / Call Centre - 5%
Back Office Functions (Finance, IT, Marketing, Sales, Security, Legal, etc) - 10%
Management & Supervisors - 4%
Senior Management & Exec - 1%

One can play around to refine those numbers, but they should be fairly close. What next has to be done is to assign salary proportions to each of these based on publically available information.

Let’s look at WestJet 2017 Annual Report total Salary, Benefits and Profit Share - $982 million, shared between 11,089 Full Time Equivalent employees. From that two deduction areas that employees don’t see on their income need to be removed - CPP & EI employer contributions and the overall benefits plan for medical etc. Assume all employees hit the maximum salary for contributions (some won’t, but part time employees will compensate for this), CPP and EI employer max for 2017 was $3,735. Employer benefits plan contribution is about $5,000 per employee. Removing these two values from the compensation total leaves $885 million.

The Exec compensation is in company reports and the VP and Director jobs are posted on a regular basis. as previously mentioned, 5% or less, this correlates to about $44 million, leaving $841 million for the other 99% of employees.

Airport and Contact Centre employees typically earn $15 to $25 per hour, so $20 per hour is a good average we will also add 25% for ESPP and profit share (as not everyone takes the full 20% ESPP), leading to $52K average annual salary, or $144 million for the whole group, or $697 million for the remaining 74% of employees.

Flight Attendants are calculated to earn less than minimum wage when normalized to a 40 hour week, as calculated by CUPE for entry level positions, but there are also the most senior flight attendants who seem to have T4s of $75K or so per year. A reasonable average here is probably $50K in total average compensation, or $166m for the whole group, leaving $531 million for the remaining 44% of employees.

In analyzing all the remaining positions, there is a spectrum of different professional positions in the back office, I know on average they are paid less than the pilot average from what I’ve been told by Finance in the past and also from the internally published salary scales. I would also say the average in Tech Ops and other technical support positions is not on average higher than the pilot group, Again from the internal salary scales. Middle management and supervisors are about comparable to the pilots on average, again from the standard internal published scales. From the remaining $531 million applied to all these positions representing 20% of employees who are pilots and 24% the other roles mentioned here, the average compensation will be $109K. For the pilot group, I would say this is the absolute minimum average at WestJet (due to the previously stated reasons) and the average at Air Canada will be at least $120K based on applying the average employee cost of $94,400 vs $88,500 for WestJet. For this to be less, the frontline employees in airport, FA and customer service positions would have to earn a lot more, which doesn’t pass the reality test.

Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions.

[flyzam]

Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions.

I am well aware of WestJet pilot income and yes, I would agree with your figures. I also know this year they were picketing outside headquarters threatening to strike because off their conditions.

WestJet and Air Canada pilots are two of the most rewarded pilot groups in Canada. They make up less than 6000 of the total 20000 or so (my guess based upon past numbers) pilots iin canada. The rest will earn generally less on the top end and markedly less on the bottom.

This will drag your average down quite considerably. Once again I would suggest you go talk to pilots out there. WestJet salaries are very far from the norm.

I should also point out that you say the average pilot cost (I assume that is more than base including per diems and benefits) is 109k leaving the base pay much lower. You estimate of 120k at air Canada also leaves both of these groups below your previously provided 'fact' of "Canada $121,408"

Maybe I'm missing something, but how can the two top earning companies in Canada have an average pilot cost less than the national average base pay?

Secondly, you previously calculated total compensation for a year 12 WestJet captain at $305k yet immediately one year 12 captain replied he is earning 205k. Certainly not adding weight to your claim of knowing WestJet pilots

[RidersRule]

Did my post about the OTS Swoop pilots getting turfed from the left seat ever go sideways.

God bless you avcanada lol

[aerobod]

Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions.

WestJet and Air Canada pilots are two of the most rewards pilot groups in Canada. They make up less than 6000 of the total 20000 or so (my guess based upon past numbers) pilots iin canada. The rest will earn generally less on the top end and markedly less on the bottom.

This will drag your average down quite considerably. Once again I would suggest you go talk to pilots out there. WestJet salaries are very far from the norm.

Although I agree the total of all pilots in Canada is a lot higher than just the WestJet and Air Canada total, my analysis and the discussion so far has been around commercial airlines, I would say the 705 operators would meet that description, I wouldn’t thinks there are more than a couple of thousand pilots outside of WestJet / Encore / Swoop and Air Canada / Jazz (who supposedly account for about 95% of all 705 airline passengers) in the other 30 or so 705 operators.

[flyzam]

Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions.

WestJet and Air Canada pilots are two of the most rewards pilot groups in Canada. They make up less than 6000 of the total 20000 or so (my guess based upon past numbers) pilots iin canada. The rest will earn generally less on the top end and markedly less on the bottom.

This will drag your average down quite considerably. Once again I would suggest you go talk to pilots out there. WestJet salaries are very far from the norm.

Although I agree the total of all pilots in Canada is a lot higher than just the WestJet and Air Canada total, my analysis and the discussion so far has been around commercial airlines, I would say the 705 operators would meet that description, I wouldn’t thinks there are more than a couple of thousand pilots outside of WestJet / Encore / Swoop and Air Canada / Jazz (who supposedly account for about 95% of all 705 airline passengers) in the other 30 or so 705 operators.

There are plenty more commercial pilots in Canada than just those that work at 705. If you are only looking at 705 that is a different story, and certainly not representative of the pilot group.

Does your 121k figure just represent 705 in Canada? That would be a hard figure to pull, considering 705 is just a Canadian regulation

I'll also add that Jazz is an entirely different organization than air Canada and the payscales are very different. Starting pay for an FO there is about 2/3rds of AC and top salary is far less. I could be corrected but I would say that the chances of an average Jazz pilot these days earning 121k are pretty low

Note all the commercial airlines in canada. Note that the definition of an airline is one that provides regular public transport. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _of_Canada

Your analysis reminds of the people who aren't pilots asking a professional pilot "are you a commercial pilot or private - do you fly big planes"?

[aerobod]

Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions.

WestJet and Air Canada pilots are two of the most rewards pilot groups in Canada. They make up less than 6000 of the total 20000 or so (my guess based upon past numbers) pilots iin canada. The rest will earn generally less on the top end and markedly less on the bottom.

This will drag your average down quite considerably. Once again I would suggest you go talk to pilots out there. WestJet salaries are very far from the norm.

Secondly, you previously calculated total compensation for a year 12 WestJet captain at $305k yet immediately one year 12 captain replied he is earning 205k. Certainly not adding weight to your claim of knowing WestJet pilots

Although I agree the total of all pilots in Canada is a lot higher than just the WestJet and Air Canada total, my analysis and the discussion so far has been around commercial airlines, I would say the 705 operators would meet that description, I wouldn’t thinks there are more than a couple of thousand pilots outside of WestJet / Encore / Swoop and Air Canada / Jazz (who supposedly account for about 95% of all 705 airline passengers) in the other 30 or so 705 operators.

The other poster with 12 years at WestJet only has 4 years as a captain from what he stated and was musing over wanting YOS (which isn’t in place yet) to get to be a 12-year captain, not someone with 12 years of service.

The highest publically posted compensation in a year for a WestJet Pilot is over $370K by Capt John Swallow (it is posted in one of the threads here). There are quite a few year 12 pilots above $300K in total compensation, if you are a WestJetter you can talk to one on the compensation managers to get an opinion on that.

My analysis that determined a minimum average of $109K is a checkpoint that I stated as a conservative value, but the basic analysis averages their wage with a much larger group that likely isn’t paid as well, as I stated, if you re-read my comments, same goes for the Air Canada value. I still stand behind the $121K average for commercial airline pilot compensation to be realistic, it doesn’t include pilots not in that category, as that seems a pointless analysis when all the discussion so far has been relating to airlines and more specifically Swoop wages and how that relates to other airlines operating the same aircraft type, if you start at the beginning of this thread.

You will have to go and talk to pilots who have been captains at WestJet for 12 years or more to confirm their compensation if they are willing to talk to them. I’ve worked with enough of them since 2006 on various projects and travelled on business trips with them and other team members to know where many stand on unionization and what they think of the compensation and also what they think about compensation in the IT dept and their opinions on technology (or the limaitations on what we provided to them).

[aerobod]

WestJet and Air Canada pilots are two of the most rewards pilot groups in Canada. They make up less than 6000 of the total 20000 or so (my guess based upon past numbers) pilots iin canada. The rest will earn generally less on the top end and markedly less on the bottom.

This will drag your average down quite considerably. Once again I would suggest you go talk to pilots out there. WestJet salaries are very far from the norm.

Although I agree the total of all pilots in Canada is a lot higher than just the WestJet and Air Canada total, my analysis and the discussion so far has been around commercial airlines, I would say the 705 operators would meet that description, I wouldn’t thinks there are more than a couple of thousand pilots outside of WestJet / Encore / Swoop and Air Canada / Jazz (who supposedly account for about 95% of all 705 airline passengers) in the other 30 or so 705 operators.

There are plenty more commercial pilots in Canada than just those that work at 705. If you are only looking at 705 that is a different story, and certainly not representative of the pilot group.

Does your 121k figure just represent 705 in Canada? That would be a hard figure to pull, considering 705 is just a Canadian regulation

I'll also add that Jazz is an entirely different organization than air Canada and the payscales are very different. Starting pay for an FO there is about 2/3rds of AC and top salary is far less. I could be corrected but I would say that the chances of an average Jazz pilot these days earning 121k are pretty low

Note all the commercial airlines in canada. Note that the definition of an airline is one that provides regular public transport.
Commercial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _of_Canada

Your analysis reminds of the people who aren't pilots asking a professional pilot "are you a commercial pilot or private - do you fly big planes"?

Don’t want to get into too many semantics or legal definitions, but the discussion started in the thread relating to Swoop operation, so my average compensation analysis has been related to similar operation, as have the references and data pulled from airline company reports. That is why I considered 705 operators a relevant scope, not looking to dissect the pilot professional as a whole, just those operating in a similar manner to Swoop, WestJet, etc and why the entry wages for an FO or 12-year captain would be relevant, as those operators would have a defined and published scale for career progression. There are lots of different definitions of commercial airline, but I think if we are comparing pilot compensatation around the world and particularly with Swoop pilots in this case, or WestJet in this AvCanada group, there are certain things I would expect to see, such as the airline has an IATA code, is operated by a captain and first officer, offers tickets for sale direct to the public and operates out of airport that the public uses. Maybe a better definition would be “commercial airline whose pilots are represented by ALPA or comparable union”? As someone mentioned previously, ALPA should have the averages for everyone they represent.

The average pay scale at Jazz will definitely be below the average I have been using, as will be Encore, but they will be included in the data averaging, as will the most senior widebody captains at Air Canada. The capacity purchase agreement for Jazz, EVAS, etc is included in Air Canada’s cost base in their financial reports. The subsidiaries or associated companies are a smaller portion of the overall financials for both WestJet and Air Canada mainline operations, though and shouldn’t skew the averages too much.

Bottom line for me is that facts are presented in a realistic manner with supporting data and analysis to back an argument, as opposed to opinion being represented as fact, without anything to back it up. This is a good description of where the US population has descended to in critical thinking skills, hopefully the rest of the world doesn’t follow too far: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-ne ... 26718.html

[flyzam]

Bottom line for me is that facts are presented in a realistic manner with supporting data and analysis to back an argument, as opposed to opinion being represented as fact, without anything to back it up. This is a good description of where the US population has descended to in critical thinking skills, hopefully the rest of the world doesn’t follow too far: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-ne ... 26718.html

But Aerobod - this is my issue with you presenting your figures as 'facts' You were responding to my statement of

One doesn't have to wonder out loud why salaries and benefits here are the worst in the first world when Canada

with your comment:

Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries

Canada $121,408

You then followed up that you were presenting facts and others were presenting as feelings. I have worked in many countries as a pilot earning a salary, and know what it is on the ground. I would not consider, my experience, my feelings at all. Certainly being the subject of a huffington post, aimed at university snowflakes, with no experience. I mean, half of your argument is based upon experience and you're not even a pilot. Moving on....

Digging into it further, you then went on to state "My analysis that determined a minimum average of $109K [for westjet]" and "Air Canada will be at least $120K based" two of the highest paid companies in Canada, the average between to two figures you provided is $114.5k a year. Taking into account the rest of the 705 operators Westjet and Air Canada make up about 60% according to airlinepilotcentral.com (which numbers are outdated but probably give an idea of the proportions) pilot number figures.

This means that 40% of 705 pilots work outside of WJ/AC. Lets assume (I know, but best we can do) that the average of the rest of those companies salaries are 80% of the top two (which I think is very gracious, considering the salaries of the regional.

so 80% of 114.5k is 91k

Proportionally the average for these figures would be $105.1k for 705 in Canada. this is 87.5% of your 'fact' well outside acceptable statistical variation for your data. I would proffer that this would show that your data is not fact Lets face it, even the numbers you offered for two of the highest airlines was below your 'fact'

Lets also revisit the argument in hand.

Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries.

Not corporate pilots, not airline pilots....pilots.

You also linked to Airline Pilots on Salary Expert also talking about commercial airlines and commercial pilots a number of times.

Oxford English Dictionary

airline
NOUN
1An organization providing a regular public service of air transport on one or more routes.

I gave you OED, as I thought you would appreciate that being english. Look up any dictionary. Anyone in the Airline industry should know this. Lets look up the north american version:

Merriam-Webster

airline noun (1)
air·line | \-ˌlīn \
Definition of airline (Entry 1 of 2)
: an air transportation system including its equipment, routes, operating personnel, and management

Even more liberal than the English definition, this could include charter, survey anything that flies practically. So no, I don't accept your view on what an airline is.

If you want to go the legal route, Airline is 705 in Canada, but airline has no reference in the FAR's not part 91, 119 121, 135 or 145. Nor does it do so in many other countries. If we are comparing oranges to oranges, lets do so.

Also, Commercial Pilot. If we are compensated for our services as a pilot, we are a commercial pilot. Something confusing to the general public I know.

So what's my point?
1: you have used different verbiage throughout your narrative presenting them as facts when they are not. A average PILOT does not earn the figures your presented. Know your facts about the industry. It starts with industry definitions. Your mix of verbiage comes across as someone not intimate with the industry. I was talking pilots and you replied pilots.

2: You are basing your rather distant experience as working in IT in an airline in Canada as to what is happening in the world of pilot salaries (admit it you referenced your job plenty of times and even presented second hand discussions with pilots on business trips) then using statistics from a website that in no way can be accurate without having privy to personal information.

3:Even using your 705 benchmark you presented numbers that differed from the 'facts' you presented. Taking into account the other operators it fell well below your 'fact' of $120k.

4: You are not using facts. You are using statistics. As mark twain said, facts are stubborn but statistics are pliable. Don't present statistics as facts and then claim you have a moral high ground over someones experience and knowledge doing the job.

Now if we want to go toe to toe, we can compare Air Canada to Australia, two countries with similar land mass to population. Qantas to Air Canada, Westjet to Jetstar. Trust me you won't like them apples....

[Schooner69A]

Deleted. Didn't work out.

[Diadem]

I would say that a 1500 hr pilot is just as valuable as a 15000 pilot for a cheap employer: they'll both be trained to the shitty standards of that employer.

Airlines are, first and foremost, businesses, and their primary concern is profitability. You're looking at it the situation as an individual, judging the two individuals in the front of the airplane on a single flight, but the airline doesn't care about that; they're looking at how much all pilots across the entire fleet will cost, and the cost-benefit of hiring nothing but 15000-hour pilots isn't worthwhile. They consider the risk of something going sideways to be so low and contained that it isn't cost-effective to restrict their hiring to only the most experienced employees when, in their estimation, it's only slightly less safe to put a well-trained 1500-hour pilot into the cockpit and save 50% on wages. I'm sure AC and WJ would like to only hire pilots with tens of thousands of hours, but is it financially prudent to do so if they're demanding pay that's exorbitantly higher than what someone equally qualified but less experienced would accept? As far as the airlines are concerned, a pilot is a pilot, and they don't care about our personal experiences or struggles; they just want to make money, and they'll only raise wages as much as they need to in order to attract applicants who can make money for the company with an acceptable level of risk.
No one has answered this question yet, and I'm starting to think it's because it's devastating to your arguments, so I'm going to keep posing it until someone addresses it: If you lived in Fort Mac and made $100000 as a welder, but you decided to move to Vancouver because you really liked the climate and the scenery, who could you blame but yourself when you took a 50% pay cut?

[sicamore]

.
No one has answered this question yet, and I'm starting to think it's because it's devastating to your arguments, so I'm going to keep posing it until someone addresses it:

No one is answering it because no one wants to engage the idiot who somehow thinks he is intelligent by repeating the same bloody thing over again. You show your lack of experience and understanding everytime you post.

[Diadem]

No one is answering it because no one wants to engage the idiot who somehow thinks he is intelligent by repeating the same bloody thing over again. You show your lack of experience and understanding everytime you post.

Then tell me how I'm wrong once and for all, and I'll stop commenting. Explain to me how a person moving somewhere against their best economic interests, for personal reasons, can demand to be paid their old wages. Tell me why the airlines would pay employees more than they have to when they can find workers at their current pay scales.

[FL320]

Diadem,

I guess you are in the generation Z group. Could you too answer the question: What is you flying experience?

To answer your question. The guy who moved to YVR would not complain (if you don’t understand why I cannot help, just wait to grow up)
The one who would complain is the one who had no other choice (the 50% paycut is not the most important but just another pain in the ass in his situation)

tell me why the airlines would pay employees more than they have to when they can find workers at their current pay scales.

Are you proud to lower the bar?

[flyzam]

No one is answering it because no one wants to engage the idiot who somehow thinks he is intelligent by repeating the same bloody thing over again. You show your lack of experience and understanding everytime you post.

Then tell me how I'm wrong once and for all, and I'll stop commenting. Explain to me how a person moving somewhere against their best economic interests, for personal reasons, can demand to be paid their old wages. Tell me why the airlines would pay employees more than they have to when they can find workers at their current pay scales.

Diadem - without trying to offend, the reason people are wondering about your age/experience, is because your question appears to come from a place of naivete.

For one, you said every time a pilot comes home they help lower the bar by accepting lower wages. No different than a new CPL entering the workforce in that regard. The difference is that this pilot once left the Canadian marketplace, in effect reducing supply, and perhaps helping to raise the bar. There is also many pilots that do not return to canada,therefore keeping net supply lower, theoretically helping the canadian pilot. There are plenty of Canadians who have settled in europe, Australia, NZ and the US, Asia, South America with families who will never come back.

Secondly, you seem to be stuck on the idea that Canada has a great lifestyle like the BC and the rest of the world is the tar pits of northern Alberta. This can only come from the viewpoint of one who is young and not well traveled and only a singular viewpoint on what is wanted and what isn't. The world is a fascinating place, and every country has its good points and bad points - Canada included. For instance, I know many who have settled in various parts of Africa. Might not appeal to you, but people love it there - they get a cook, maid, gardener for next to nothing, cheap land, get good access to medical paid for by the company and can have a sweet schedule of a few days a week working. Not only that, the cost of living is low and they save a ton of money, as well as being paid more than a canadian. Again might not appeal to you, but not everyone is you.

Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and the US of course have many things that Canada doesn't have, or ready access to. It goes without saying some people would prefer the lifestyle of these places over Canada, similar to the snowbirds (but not just weather)

Asia, is a fascinating place. Great cities, beautiful, amazing opportunities, expediential growth, awesome history and fantastic cultural. Again, I know many people have made that their long term home. So much to offer that we don't get here. Also, might not appeal to you, but many thousands of people prefer it to living in the west.

Just because you see a ton of immigrants here doesn't mean people aren't immigrating all over the world to different places they prefer. Hell, Australia is full of Canadian immigrants who prefer the beach lifestyle of Canada.

Lifestyle means a lot of things to a lot of people. It might be one of more money left over at the end of the month, it might be an international expat lifestyle, it might be an amazing city life (there are better cities than toronto around the world) it might be a rich historical culture, it might be a foreign culture, it might be the beach or island life etc etc. Don't assume that lifestyle is just one thing (ie canadian)

I think it is a great thing when a Canadian wants to broaden their horizons by exploring the world, and enriching their viewpoint. I'm sure you might have encountered that 'skygod' pilot returning from overseas. Trust me there are plenty of skygods who have never left Canada.

Thirdly, there are many reasons to come back to Canada against someones wishes. Many do move back for the lifestyle, and you probably don't hear from them much. The fact that you ask your question in the way of you do, gives the impression that you are young or don't have a family. When you get older there are so many choices that we make that we feel is for the better of the family but we might not like. For instance, a sick kid who is going to receive better healthcare in the west. Maybe a parent with Alzheimers and we want to be there to support them in the end. Or maybe our partner wants to be with her family or have the kids grow up near family (very common) She (or he) might think that the lifestyle is better, doesn't mean the pilot might do. An endless array of reasons that the returning pilot might be resistant to.

No doubt many of the pilots who return to Canada, and complain either thought their version of lifestyle was better where they came from and they felt forced to return, or maybe it is the pilot who came from a similar country to canada (plenty of those) and feel that the vacation, pay, benefits or anything else might be below what they are used to. Some people might go overseas for the money. Many go for the adventure or better lifestyle in their view.

Who knows, maybe they have a point? Nothing is ever black and white.

[mbav8r]

So, have the Swoop OTS captains settled into their new FO seats and have the figured out what pay protected means?

[aerobod]

So, I want to apologise, especially to RidersRule, for being one of the main instigators of thread drift in this OTS Swoop Pilots thread. It seems that flyzam and I have descended into quite a pedantic discussion. Please disregard by textual diarrhea in this post, if you have anything other than an excess of time to read.

That being said, flyzam, I would like to address your points, as I believe that your are reading too many items out of context in the discussion we have had:

You then followed up that you were presenting facts and others were presenting as feelings. I have worked in many countries as a pilot earning a salary, and know what it is on the ground. I would not consider, my experience, my feelings at all. Certainly being the subject of a huffington post, aimed at university snowflakes, with no experience. I mean, half of your argument is based upon experience and you're not even a pilot. Moving on....

I'm sorry if it came across that other people were not using facts, but if you go back through any statement I have made, I have not called out anyone for presenting information that wasn't a fact. I have lamented the lack of facts, but have encouraged them to be presented. The reason I posted the Huffington Post article is to illustrate the state of critical thinking in the country below ours, by involving ourselves in the discussion here is actually alleviating the degeneration of "facts into feelings", and I stated "This is a good description of where the US population has descended to in critical thinking skills, hopefully the rest of the world doesn’t follow too far"

Digging into it further, you then went on to state "My analysis that determined a minimum average of $109K [for westjet]" and "Air Canada will be at least $120K based" two of the highest paid companies in Canada, the average between to two figures you provided is $114.5k a year. Taking into account the rest of the 705 operators Westjet and Air Canada make up about 60% according to airlinepilotcentral.com (which numbers are outdated but probably give an idea of the proportions) pilot number figures.

The averages for WS and AC I produced from the annual reports, mixed with a hypothesis of the mix of employees and each employee group realistic salary was presented as a discussion for people to do their own analysis, as I stated: "Feel free to play around with the proportions of different employee groups and their associated salaries to come to your own conclusions"
What I also stated was an opinion "I would say this is the absolute minimum average" due to the fact that I made the assumption that all other groups outside the ones where salary is relatively easy to estimate have salaries that average the same as pilots, which I postulated was not the case due to my knowledge of the company, but I can't prove without using proprietary information, hence the average of $109K < actual WS pilot salary average, it is not the same number.

This means that 40% of 705 pilots work outside of WJ/AC. Lets assume (I know, but best we can do) that the average of the rest of those companies salaries are 80% of the top two (which I think is very gracious, considering the salaries of the regional.

so 80% of 114.5k is 91k

This is your hypothesis which is based on a core fact you have found from pilot central, much the same way I used the ERI data, both are reputable sources, the fact seems to be sound, but the assumptions that bound this fact may not all be known.

Proportionally the average for these figures would be $105.1k for 705 in Canada. this is 87.5% of your 'fact' well outside acceptable statistical variation for your data. I would proffer that this would show that your data is not fact Lets face it, even the numbers you offered for two of the highest airlines was below your 'fact'

Your 'fact' is no more or less of a 'fact' than my fact, what we both haven't fully got to the bottom of is what the assumptions and bounds are that make these facts a different fact and how those differences are understood to drive the information together to create a common fact that is defined in the same way.

Lets also revisit the argument in hand.

Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries.

Not corporate pilots, not airline pilots....pilots.
.....
So what's my point?
1: you have used different verbiage throughout your narrative presenting them as facts when they are not. A average PILOT does not earn the figures your presented. Know your facts about the industry. It starts with industry definitions. Your mix of verbiage comes across as someone not intimate with the industry. I was talking pilots and you replied pilots.

As I stated "One assumption I have made is that we are comparing compensation for "Commercial Airline Pilots" which covers airline captains and first officers" I also repeated the scope of "commercial airline pilot" twice more. If I used "pilot" and any other term in general and not "commercial airline pilot", I apologise for my lack of pedanticism in this case

2: You are basing your rather distant experience as working in IT in an airline in Canada as to what is happening in the world of pilot salaries (admit it you referenced your job plenty of times and even presented second hand discussions with pilots on business trips) then using statistics from a website that in no way can be accurate without having privy to personal information.

I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.

I respect your knowledge of specific salary information and it is the reason this discussion is taking place in this thread, but IT people also have a detailed knowledge of this too, otherwise the business wouldn't have effective applications with meaningful data.

3:Even using your 705 benchmark you presented numbers that differed from the 'facts' you presented. Taking into account the other operators it fell well below your 'fact' of $120k.

As stated above, the $120K number from ERI is their 'fact' based on what they define as "commercial airline pilot". The average salary information and my attempt to de-construct the salary distribution at WS or AC to test that 'fact', doesn't mean that the 'facts' have to match, as the assumptions are not fully known, but the discussion here on what I presented (which I also encouraged people to provide input on, as you and others did), is helping the understanding more. In many ways this has now become more of an intellectual as opposed to practical discussion, especially as opinions are converging slowly, if at all.

4: You are not using facts. You are using statistics. As mark twain said, facts are stubborn but statistics are pliable. Don't present statistics as facts and then claim you have a moral high ground over someones experience and knowledge doing the job.

Many statistics are facts, so I have to completely disagree here. I'm not claiming moral high ground or denegrating anyone else's knownledge. My analysis of any facts presented is my own opinion, not fact. My analyis and it's hypothesis are not facts, but I try to find facts to back up discussion, not that others don't too, but facts provide a solid ground to work from. The outcome is generally an opinion. In my case you can see that from my use of "seems", "I think", etc.

A statistic used here as a fact: "average employee cost at WS is $94,400". The input facts from the annual report is that Employee Salary, Benefits and Profit Share was $982m, together with the FTE count of 11,089. Both input facts that lead to a derived fact that is a statistic.

Another area where stastistical facts are derived is in AI and Machine Learning the use of Markov models for vision systems and other areas where fuzzy logic is required. The back calculation of probability used for the model is from statistics.

Lots of facts go into statistics, the only reason a statistic is seen as pliable is that the interpretter or presenter have not fully disclosed all the definitions and assumptions that clarify what the statistic relates to.

Facts are also shaped by knowledge at a particular point in time, so new knowledge may prove a fact to be inaccurate or completely wrong, vis:
- Doctors took it as fact that stress causes ulcers, in fact science now has proved that bacteria is the cause
- Another long accepted fact (fundamental to my aeronautics university education) is that pressure change on a wing happens due to air on the curved upper surface travelling further than air below the flatter lower surface, dictating it must travel faster so that it can arrive at the other side of the wing at the same time as the air flowing underneath. The fact is that it is the curvature itself that causes lift, not the distance the air has to travel, as proven by Prof Babinsky at Cambridge a few years ago.

Now if we want to go toe to toe, we can compare Air Canada to Australia, two countries with similar land mass to population. Qantas to Air Canada, Westjet to Jetstar. Trust me you won't like them apples....

My reaction to "toe to toe", or "you won't like them apples" is 'meh', it doesn't affect me, doesn't matter to me what a pilot earns, I'm only interested in the data and what it means to how viable an airline is. The market sets the rates one way or another, they are what they are, but fair compensation is always a good thing.

I see that we are unlikely to converge on "What is the average compensation for a commercial pilot in Canada and how it compares with the rest of the world?" or how ever else you want to phrase the question, so be it.

[munzil]

I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.

Aerobod - I'm going to jump in here. I worked in a senior IT role for a fortune 50 company in the states for over 20 years mostly within the financial sector. No one person has unguarded access to all the information that you aspire without reason and cause. Specifically salary information will be requested by another part of the organization and it will be IT's role to gather and deliver that information.

If you are saying that you had direct access to salary information (without going through the DB admin etc), even in the role of IT strategy, that information should have no relevance to your role - unless you are passing it on to someone else. I see absolutely no reason anyone in strategy should have access to that information.

I'd be careful with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, Westjets IT governance and security is sorely lacking.

[aerobod]

I would beg to differ in your assertion here. IT is all about data and the understanding of data, how it flows, it's accuracy and how to put it in the hands of users via various applications, so they are able to carry out their jobs. In WestJet there are way over 1000 central corporate databases that are under full IT management, these include finiancial databases with salary information, ACARS databases (with anonymised operating info due to privacy concerns), scheduling databases, sales databases - you name it, for the whole of the airline operation there is a database that houses any information that needs to persist any longer than an in-memory image of a transaction or operation, to the tune of about 1 Petabyte (1,048,576 Gigabytes). When the 787s come on line, each aircraft will be generating ~0.1 GB of information per flight hour that IT will analyse and manage on behalf of the business. The same is true for database information on salaries, IT analyses and presents this to the business. IT Data Specialists have to be data experts, IT as an organisation is the heart of information knowledge across the whole airline.

Aerobod - I'm going to jump in here. I worked in a senior IT role for a fortune 50 company in the states for over 20 years mostly within the financial sector. No one person has unguarded access to all the information that you aspire without reason and cause. Specifically salary information will be requested by another part of the organization and it will be IT's role to gather and deliver that information.

If you are saying that you had direct access to salary information (without going through the DB admin etc), even in the role of IT strategy, that information should have no relevance to your role - unless you are passing it on to someone else. I see absolutely no reason anyone in strategy should have access to that information.

I'd be careful with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, Westjets IT governance and security is sorely lacking.

What you say is totally correct, the DBAs are the ones with direct access with protocols in place for security and governance in different teams. Privacy is also a major governance issue. That being said, BI reporting after data anonymization does not present a problem, this is where analytics becomes a corporate asset that exposes averages for things such as salary, sales data, aircraft maintenance trends, etc. Only the DBAs have access to the in-scope data records that has privacy protection (for example PIPEDA and GDPR). This is where analytics and the data warehouse / big data / data integration gives the important business decision components with security required to protect corporate intellectual property, but cleansed for any privacy and related issues (such as credit card tokenisation for PCI). I had responsibility for the Architecture (core strategy role managing the Enterprise Architectures who each had Solution Architect teams), Data Integration, DBA and BI teams at WestJet when I retired (also previous roles with responsibility for Cyber Security, IT Governance, Operations Research and Software Quality Assurance). I had no ability to access data records myself (least privileged access / need to know only), yet from a BI perspective was accountable to the business for reporting and analytics, so dealt a lot with the commercially sensitive rolled-up data.

WestJet is strongly governed when it comes to data access, especially as GDPR has been a major focus there over the past couple of years, much more so than peer organisations I have interacted with. In 2016 when one of the teams that reported to me was Cyber Security, I instigated the GDPR initiative with the Legal dept.

[Schooner69A]

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