New Arbitrated Contract

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Lightchop
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Lightchop »

dogfood wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
$500 WJPA dollars. Whatever the hell those are.

I pay my mortgage in CAD.... ?
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The Tenth Man
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man »

KAG wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
Hi KAG. I think that what you are asking is an issue that defies a low resolution answer, as much as we pilots would like to strictly make it about an apple to apples comparison, citing that we all do the same job, in the same airspace.

If you manage to make a career out of an airline pilot job, without layoff or company failure, or demotion or loss of base, consider yourself fortunate. If you join an airline with preconceived expectations or an attitude of entitlement, I fear that you are setting yourself up for failure. A few are fortunate. My buddy at AC left Air Nova when all the senior pilots there were pressuring pilots to stay, in support of their fight against ACPA. He ignored them, and I understand will be retiring at the top of the list.

Make your decisions, learn to deal with disappointment (that's reality according to Dr JBP) and accept that you aren't in control of the levers of life.

The CBA we are getting was totally foreseeable. It is neither better than or less than what one would expect in a first contract at WJ. I'm certainly not surprised, nor am I angry at the result. Certainly we are not further ahead than we were with the WJPA as a result of what we pilots have done to the image of the company, and what we have done to promote toxic unionization among other employee groups.

The Swoop episode alone shows how utterly powerless ALPA's vaunted tool box is. It's filled with hot air and boasting. Nothing more.

Anyway, time to move on. More dragons to slay.

TTFN

Johnny Boy
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dogfood
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by dogfood »

Lightchop wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:52 am
dogfood wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
$500 WJPA dollars. Whatever the hell those are.

I pay my mortgage in CAD.... ?
Thanks your helpful
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Demeter
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Demeter »

Good points and I think the hype generated by those that were organizing are now realizing they were looking through rose coloured glasses and promised what could not be delivered. KAG you were guilty of this too and I hope you guys actually come out and apologize to us. Kaplan isn’t dumb and I hear he had the respect of both groups. I also think the wrong guy ran the Alpa shop outta the gates. Wrong path, wrong foot. Love the guy we have in now and I believe it’s time to move forward. John won the bet on one list too since we have to merge everything together down the road. Not as dumb as you guys try and portray him as.

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:01 am
KAG wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
Hi KAG. I think that what you are asking is an issue that defies a low resolution answer, as much as we pilots would like to strictly make it about an apple to apples comparison, citing that we all do the same job, in the same airspace.

If you manage to make a career out of an airline pilot job, without layoff or company failure, or demotion or loss of base, consider yourself fortunate. If you join an airline with preconceived expectations or an attitude of entitlement, I fear that you are setting yourself up for failure. A few are fortunate. My buddy at AC left Air Nova when all the senior pilots there were pressuring pilots to stay, in support of their fight against ACPA. He ignored them, and I understand will be retiring at the top of the list.

Make your decisions, learn to deal with disappointment (that's reality according to Dr JBP) and accept that you aren't in control of the levers of life.

The CBA we are getting was totally foreseeable. It is neither better than or less than what one would expect in a first contract at WJ. I'm certainly not surprised, nor am I angry at the result. Certainly we are not further ahead than we were with the WJPA as a result of what we pilots have done to the image of the company, and what we have done to promote toxic unionization among other employee groups.

The Swoop episode alone shows how utterly powerless ALPA's vaunted tool box is. It's filled with hot air and boasting. Nothing more.

Anyway, time to move on. More dragons to slay.

TTFN

Johnny Boy
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The Tenth Man
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man »

Agreed re: current MEC Chairman. The bargaining unit needs to expunge any remaining vestiges of WPPA tainted pilots, and move forward together in a cooperative spirit with leadership.
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Bacunayagua
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Bacunayagua »

Demeter wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:44 am Good points and I think the hype generated by those that were organizing are now realizing they were looking through rose coloured glasses and promised what could not be delivered. KAG you were guilty of this too and I hope you guys actually come out and apologize to us. Kaplan isn’t dumb and I hear he had the respect of both groups. I also think the wrong guy ran the Alpa shop outta the gates. Wrong path, wrong foot. Love the guy we have in now and I believe it’s time to move forward. John won the bet on one list too since we have to merge everything together down the road. Not as dumb as you guys try and portray him as.

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:01 am
KAG wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
Hi KAG. I think that what you are asking is an issue that defies a low resolution answer, as much as we pilots would like to strictly make it about an apple to apples comparison, citing that we all do the same job, in the same airspace.

If you manage to make a career out of an airline pilot job, without layoff or company failure, or demotion or loss of base, consider yourself fortunate. If you join an airline with preconceived expectations or an attitude of entitlement, I fear that you are setting yourself up for failure. A few are fortunate. My buddy at AC left Air Nova when all the senior pilots there were pressuring pilots to stay, in support of their fight against ACPA. He ignored them, and I understand will be retiring at the top of the list.

Make your decisions, learn to deal with disappointment (that's reality according to Dr JBP) and accept that you aren't in control of the levers of life.

The CBA we are getting was totally foreseeable. It is neither better than or less than what one would expect in a first contract at WJ. I'm certainly not surprised, nor am I angry at the result. Certainly we are not further ahead than we were with the WJPA as a result of what we pilots have done to the image of the company, and what we have done to promote toxic unionization among other employee groups.

The Swoop episode alone shows how utterly powerless ALPA's vaunted tool box is. It's filled with hot air and boasting. Nothing more.

Anyway, time to move on. More dragons to slay.

TTFN

Johnny Boy
Can someone please explain to me if there is a definitive answer regarding the "one-list" question?

A previous poster alluded to the company simply having bigger fish to fry at the moment. While I agree with part of that statement, I would think that if it was already agreed upon it would have been stated by now. My understanding is that the company has received an LOU from the union expressing the unions desire for the one-list and thats that.

Others claim there is no way the company will not agree to it as it is the only thing keeping Encore pilots behind. But is it really? AC isn't exactly promising express pilots, jobs at mainline let alone a seniority number ahead of any OTS hires. And they're not exactly leaving in masse. They are actually overstaffed according to the jazz drivers here.
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FICU
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FICU »

KAG wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So no change to pay at Swoop by the arbitrator??

What a disgrace!

Can the mainline pilots at Swoop bid back to mainline or are they frozen? If they could it might be some leverage if they all threatened to bid back essentially grounding Swoop.
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Lightchop
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Lightchop »

dogfood wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:33 am
Lightchop wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:52 am
dogfood wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:47 am What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
$500 WJPA dollars. Whatever the hell those are.

I pay my mortgage in CAD.... ?
Thanks your helpful
You're
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skybaron
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by skybaron »

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Last edited by skybaron on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by skybaron »

skybaron wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:15 pm
FICU wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:47 am
What a disgrace!

Can the mainline pilots at Swoop bid back to mainline or are they frozen? If they could it might be some leverage if they all threatened to bid back essentially grounding Swoop.
Brilliant. :smt023
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The Tenth Man
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man »

FICU wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:47 am
KAG wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:14 am I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So no change to pay at Swoop by the arbitrator??

What a disgrace!

Can the mainline pilots at Swoop bid back to mainline or are they frozen? If they could it might be some leverage if they all threatened to bid back essentially grounding Swoop.
Uh huh. Sure.

:roll:

Do you honestly think that employees who are now the subject of a collective agreement achieved by a legally sought and agreed to process can now somehow reopen the terms by some sort of coordinated action (that doesn't even make sense)? Seriously. I can forgive skybaron's support because his first language is likely not english, but FICU, you should know better.

The way a bid works is everyone has a bid or standing bid in place. All the positions will be filled. The shittiest postitions get filled by the most junior employees, or did you think that somehow that seats would be left without pilots? lol, that's a good one.

Cheers,

Johnny I've Been Around The Block And Heard Dumb Ideas Before
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moe
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by moe »

Johnny just remember to take away the 4.5 hr straight time off that $4300 if you’re on VOCD..
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FICU
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FICU »

China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm Uh huh. Sure.
Lighten up Francis...

So guys who bid to Swoop and expected gains through arbitration are stuck with the original basement dwelling shit with no recourse to get back to mainline?
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Last edited by FICU on Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sharklasers
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Sharklasers »

FICU wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:13 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm Uh huh. Sure.
Easy there Francis...

So guys who bid to Swoop and expected gains through arbitration are stuck with the original basement dwelling shit with no recourse to get back to mainline?
Sounds like that was the risk. Rolled the dice pay the price.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. As much as I truly hate most everything John Swallows writes it seems like he called alot of what's gone down. If I had to guess I'd say alot of his pessimistic ramblings are probably influenced by his previous experiences as an ALPA represented pilot.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by I WAS Birddog »

2% per year cost of living raise. Of which 1.9% goes to ALPA. :smt104

Amazing.

:smt038
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The Tenth Man
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man »

FICU wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:13 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm Uh huh. Sure.
Lighten up Francis...

So guys who bid to Swoop and expected gains through arbitration are stuck with the original basement dwelling shit with no recourse to get back to mainline?
I believe the issue of freezes has not been revealed. Westjet must maintain 90% of the pilot positions on the WPSL as of two days ago. That means that as 787's come on strength, NG tails will be transferred over to Swoop and eventually there may/will be approximately 150-170 less pilots at mainline. How we get to that position, while accounting for the addition of new fatigue rules and reserve, is a good game at the bar with napkins and peanuts. Will WJ need the current levels of staffing at YYC/YVR/YYZ on the NG? Who knows.

The WJPA was in the process of negotiating a 1 for 1 deal for NG's to Swoop versus WB's, which at the time was 10 NG's to Swoop for 10 787's. Compare that to 30 tails...

How about the pay? Virtually no change in the Award from what was offered, with no negotiation/input, to OTS pilots. The WJPA was in the process of negotiating that pay (it was looking promising that a much higher pay than currently in place would have been achieved) when the certification vote happened.

Indeed, ALPA rejected the company's offer to negotiate Swoop pay, if the right to strike over the issue or application for common employer was taken off the table for the duration of the negotiations, if I recall correctly the communication from ALPA (Correct me if I am wrong). The MEC got all blustery and puffery with pronouncements of not giving up any rights under the CLC. Okay.

Then the demonstration at HQ. Then the strike vote. All for what? All the lost goodwill...

Part of the problem may lie with the fact that the MEC Chairman and the 3 NC members, who may be fine people (I don't know them) but they were all former ALPA members, all from the same vintage (being hired mid 2003 to 2006), and more importantly, were all prominent members of the WPPA. The WPPA, as we know, was very combative. The worst thing that happened to WJ pilots was to bring that combative element into the relationship here, right off to bat. It sent the wrong message to management.

Anyway, that is all in the past. Spitballing about how we got here won't do much good now, other than as a warning to use more care in who choosing who represents the pilots in the future. An echo chamber at the MEC/LEC level has to be avoided at all costs. We now know the harm it can do.



Ciao

Johnny-Who-Wrote-This-Post-While-Wearing-Only-His-Underwear-And-An-Underwired-Bra
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Schooner69A »

"...Underwired-Bra...

So THAT'S where it went...

:shock:
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Arctic84 »

A first contract is never everything you wish it would be. There’s two things that WestJet pilots needed to get from contract number one;

If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots.

WestJet flying done by WestJet pilots.

These goals were achieved in the first contract, providing a foundation to build on.

Some pilots won’t be happy. The ability to game the overtime system is gone. The sour grapes crowd that screeched about how they would get a seniority bidding system from ALPA and thereafter crap on their juniors are having to come to grips with the fact that the same socialized bidding system remains. No OT and the same crappy trips as everyone else. Geez, that’s a huge loss for some of the smarmy stooges.

WestJet management can be try to exact a pound of flesh as retribution for the pilots joining a union. Dumb move, considering the paucity of experienced pilots in the job market these days. More likely that the company will work within the negotiated rules.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Red1 »

"If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots."

Umm you might want to re-read this section, there is a difference between a min daily credit and a min duty period credit. A duty credit is generally applied while on duty.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by altiplano »

Red1 wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:07 pm "If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots."

Umm you might want to re-read this section, there is a difference between a min daily credit and a min duty period credit. A duty credit is generally applied while on duty.
Document I read says TAFB 1:4.
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