New Arbitrated Contract

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

User avatar
The Tenth Man
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:36 pm

FICU wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:13 pm
China_CAAC_Exam wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:24 pm
Uh huh. Sure.
Lighten up Francis...

So guys who bid to Swoop and expected gains through arbitration are stuck with the original basement dwelling shit with no recourse to get back to mainline?
I believe the issue of freezes has not been revealed. Westjet must maintain 90% of the pilot positions on the WPSL as of two days ago. That means that as 787's come on strength, NG tails will be transferred over to Swoop and eventually there may/will be approximately 150-170 less pilots at mainline. How we get to that position, while accounting for the addition of new fatigue rules and reserve, is a good game at the bar with napkins and peanuts. Will WJ need the current levels of staffing at YYC/YVR/YYZ on the NG? Who knows.

The WJPA was in the process of negotiating a 1 for 1 deal for NG's to Swoop versus WB's, which at the time was 10 NG's to Swoop for 10 787's. Compare that to 30 tails...

How about the pay? Virtually no change in the Award from what was offered, with no negotiation/input, to OTS pilots. The WJPA was in the process of negotiating that pay (it was looking promising that a much higher pay than currently in place would have been achieved) when the certification vote happened.

Indeed, ALPA rejected the company's offer to negotiate Swoop pay, if the right to strike over the issue or application for common employer was taken off the table for the duration of the negotiations, if I recall correctly the communication from ALPA (Correct me if I am wrong). The MEC got all blustery and puffery with pronouncements of not giving up any rights under the CLC. Okay.

Then the demonstration at HQ. Then the strike vote. All for what? All the lost goodwill...

Part of the problem may lie with the fact that the MEC Chairman and the 3 NC members, who may be fine people (I don't know them) but they were all former ALPA members, all from the same vintage (being hired mid 2003 to 2006), and more importantly, were all prominent members of the WPPA. The WPPA, as we know, was very combative. The worst thing that happened to WJ pilots was to bring that combative element into the relationship here, right off to bat. It sent the wrong message to management.

Anyway, that is all in the past. Spitballing about how we got here won't do much good now, other than as a warning to use more care in who choosing who represents the pilots in the future. An echo chamber at the MEC/LEC level has to be avoided at all costs. We now know the harm it can do.



Ciao

Johnny-Who-Wrote-This-Post-While-Wearing-Only-His-Underwear-And-An-Underwired-Bra
---------- ADS -----------
  

Schooner69A
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Schooner69A » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:39 pm

"...Underwired-Bra...

So THAT'S where it went...

:shock:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Arctic84
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:51 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Arctic84 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:30 pm

A first contract is never everything you wish it would be. There’s two things that WestJet pilots needed to get from contract number one;

If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots.

WestJet flying done by WestJet pilots.

These goals were achieved in the first contract, providing a foundation to build on.

Some pilots won’t be happy. The ability to game the overtime system is gone. The sour grapes crowd that screeched about how they would get a seniority bidding system from ALPA and thereafter crap on their juniors are having to come to grips with the fact that the same socialized bidding system remains. No OT and the same crappy trips as everyone else. Geez, that’s a huge loss for some of the smarmy stooges.

WestJet management can be try to exact a pound of flesh as retribution for the pilots joining a union. Dumb move, considering the paucity of experienced pilots in the job market these days. More likely that the company will work within the negotiated rules.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Red1
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:26 am
Location: East of where I was

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Red1 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:07 pm

"If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots."

Umm you might want to re-read this section, there is a difference between a min daily credit and a min duty period credit. A duty credit is generally applied while on duty.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The force will be with you, always

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:22 pm

Red1 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:07 pm
"If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots."

Umm you might want to re-read this section, there is a difference between a min daily credit and a min duty period credit. A duty credit is generally applied while on duty.
Document I read says TAFB 1:4.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Red1
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:26 am
Location: East of where I was

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Red1 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:19 pm

"Document I read says TAFB 1:4."
This is the time a away from base Rig, there is also a 1:2 duty rig so 1 credit for every 2 hour on duty. The Min Duty period credit is only while on duty, this is what differs from a min daily credit which applies to each day regardless if your on duty or not. Remember while you are sitting in hotel, you are not technically on duty....sorry.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The force will be with you, always

altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:05 pm

Red1 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:07 pm
"If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots."

Umm you might want to re-read this section, there is a difference between a min daily credit and a min duty period credit. A duty credit is generally applied while on duty.
Red1 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:19 pm
"Document I read says TAFB 1:4."
This is the time a away from base Rig, there is also a 1:2 duty rig so 1 credit for every 2 hour on duty. The Min Duty period credit is only while on duty, this is what differs from a min daily credit which applies to each day regardless if your on duty or not. Remember while you are sitting in hotel, you are not technically on duty....sorry.
I don't follow you...

Rigs work together...

1:2 duty protects you during long inefficient duty days
1:4 tafb protects you during long inefficient layovers/pairings not on duty
min duty guarantee protects you on short inefficient days without much flying

Your comment on the 52 hour layover... 1:4 would kick in assuming inefficient flying... maybe 2 hours out, 2 back, 52 hour layover = 56 TAFB = 14 hours pay... "if you're at work get paid"... layover is at work... TAFB is at work...
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:20 pm

jjj wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:55 am
Ironic that it only takes 26 pilots to @#$! an entire industry for a decade.

JJJ
Facts seem to suggest otherwise since an independent arbitrator, whose praise some of you were singing recently for booting the direct-hire captains out of their seats, has ruled that those wages are in fact industry standard. Imagine how things could have been better if ALPA MEC actually engaged the company in meaningful negotiations, that it is paid to do, instead of fear mongering, posturing, restricting its members, and banning non members who clearly are not bound by its edicts.

Not to mention that ALPA was the agency hired to improve the fortunes of WestJet pilots, not OTS pilots, not company, not Kaplan, no one else. It was ALPA's responsibility, at great material, emotional, and relational cost to the pilot group, to do that! While it's easy to point fingers and use other people as your punching bag, look no further than the mirror!
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by cloak on Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:37 pm

Arctic84 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:30 pm
A first contract is never everything you wish it would be. There’s two things that WestJet pilots needed to get from contract number one;

If you’re at work, get paid. Minimum credit was the one thing that WestJet feared. No more sitting in Newfoundland for 52 hours with no pay, essentially on reserve for zero pay. No more all day at work for an hour of pay. Minimum credit and duty rigs are normal ops at other airlines, but a huge leap forward for WS pilots.

WestJet flying done by WestJet pilots.

These goals were achieved in the first contract, providing a foundation to build on.

Some pilots won’t be happy. The ability to game the overtime system is gone. The sour grapes crowd that screeched about how they would get a seniority bidding system from ALPA and thereafter crap on their juniors are having to come to grips with the fact that the same socialized bidding system remains. No OT and the same crappy trips as everyone else. Geez, that’s a huge loss for some of the smarmy stooges.

WestJet management can be try to exact a pound of flesh as retribution for the pilots joining a union. Dumb move, considering the paucity of experienced pilots in the job market these days. More likely that the company will work within the negotiated rules.
You are correct it's always good to have reasonable expectations and wider perspective. At the same time, these are not the kind of stuff ALPA folks were promising, but things like pay parity (minimum 16% raise). To make matters worse, people now have to pay dues for this contract for the next 4 years!
---------- ADS -----------
  

DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by DanWEC » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:45 pm

Curious, does ALPA have any kind of accountability?
---------- ADS -----------
  

eyebrow737
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:33 am

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:26 am

DanWEC wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:45 pm
Curious, does ALPA have any kind of accountability?
Doesn't seem so, but certainly seems that the WestJet pilots are finding out they have accountability for their actions.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
KAG
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3575
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by KAG » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 am

John, wtf are refering ro the wjpa was trying to negioate 1 for 1 scope with swoop....I was under the impression they had no idea of its existence?

Cloak, our ALPA negot team tried for over 9 months to do exactly what you said, negioate with managment who no showed them most of the time or would show unprepared and argue over deftinations. Both stalling tactics.

As for whoever asked about bidding back to mainline, it's a 2 year freeze.

Finally, while these bullet points look bad, it's not the final document. I'll reserve final judgment for mid jan when we get it. Looks pretty bad though. Merry Christmas all. Be safe.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.

flyinhigh
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2503
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:42 pm
Location: my couch

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by flyinhigh » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:46 am

What people don't seem to get is ALPA is the WestJet pilots. ALPA, is only as strong and as good as the people that you, the pilots, have voted in to speak on your behalf. Think of Trump :smt040, voted in and speaks for all americans. :oops:

ALPA international, which yes is the union, is purely support staff on request. Need assistance with grievances than the lawyers are there for you. Need assistance building or understanding economics, the Economics and Financial teams are there for you, etc.

ALPA as a whole has zero accountability, your pilots your voted in do.
DanWEC wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:45 pm
Curious, does ALPA have any kind of accountability?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Lightchop
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:03 am

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Lightchop » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:51 am

flyinhigh wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:46 am
What people don't seem to get is ALPA is the WestJet pilots. ALPA, is only as strong and as good as the people that you, the pilots, have voted in to speak on your behalf. Think of Trump :smt040, voted in and speaks for all americans. :oops:

ALPA international, which yes is the union, is purely support staff on request. Need assistance with grievances than the lawyers are there for you. Need assistance building or understanding economics, the Economics and Financial teams are there for you, etc.

ALPA as a whole has zero accountability, your pilots your voted in do.
DanWEC wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:45 pm
Curious, does ALPA have any kind of accountability?
This is the thing I don't think most people understand and it's actually kinda funny
---------- ADS -----------
  

lostaviator
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by lostaviator » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:25 am

Correct, ALPA is us. Unfortunately, most of us were unaware of all the processes involved in setting up our first council and committees. I believe the blindness was intentional. As mentioned, most involved in this process were from a similar era of hires and workplace political backgrounds.

While it is my own fault for not being educated, I (along with everyone else) didn’t know the MEC was chosen by the LEC (vs a vote). In fact, I think most won by acclamation. Also, I do not recall how our negotiating committee was selected.

It’s a done deal now - I am moving on. I don't agree with CHINA, Weed, often, but he's right. The only thing that will kill you faster then cosmic ration and sleep deprivation is holding onto anger. Going forward, I believe the former MEC and negotiating committee owe it to us to answer some pretty difficult questions regarding what happened here the last two years so we know better for next time. They were wrong every step of the way. It took other, more established, airlines years to get the contracts they have so it's time to learn from this, and start working towards the next one.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Bacunayagua
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Bacunayagua » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 am

I take it now one really knows whats going on with the "one-list"?
---------- ADS -----------
  

SJPFTW
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:09 am

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by SJPFTW » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:14 am

This is pretty interesting. Not a WestJet pilot, but for a outside person trying to look in where can I go to get more details about this new arbitrated contract?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Red1
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 249
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:26 am
Location: East of where I was

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Red1 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:17 am

"don't follow you...

Rigs work together...

1:2 duty protects you during long inefficient duty days
1:4 tafb protects you during long inefficient layovers/pairings not on duty
min duty guarantee protects you on short inefficient days without much flying

Your comment on the 52 hour layover... 1:4 would kick in assuming inefficient flying... maybe 2 hours out, 2 back, 52 hour layover = 56 TAFB = 14 hours pay... "if you're at work get paid"... layover is at work... TAFB is at work..."

totally right. but the difference between a min duty credit, and a min daily credit is a duty credit is only applies while your on duty, while a daily credit is applied every day of the pairing. So if you have a 4 day pairing where you sit for 24hrs, a duty credit doesn't apply as your not on duty, while a min daily credit would. In this case the other Rigs would hopefully capture the long sit, but they might not depending on the total pairing credit and total TAFB.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The force will be with you, always

FlyAlberta
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:28 am

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by FlyAlberta » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:34 am

Bacunayagua wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 am
I take it now one really knows whats going on with the "one-list"?

One list has been agreed to be kept by both WS/WR MEC’s. Just waiting on the company to sign on and make it an LOU. In all communications to the pilot groups the company says they want to keep the one list. They’ve been waiting for the arbitration to be completed and apparently will meet with the MEC’s beginning of January to finalize.

With that said, I’ve heard some of the OTS (post 2013) mainline hires have already lawyered up in an attempt to sewer the Encore pilots and gain some ground on the seniority list.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cloak
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:15 am

ALPA is not "us", it's not the pilots; it is a mammoth of an organization with full time staff making exuberant amounts of money claiming or attempting to provide "support" and "protection" as said.

In order to get the pilot group under their umbrella, they do administer union drives and campaigns in various ways to be the "representatives" of the pilot group. In the campaign process, much like a political campaign and as was the case with WestJet, they make certain promises to bring about certain improvements and make comparisons with other airlines, like pay parity with Air Canada and so on. This comes at what cost though?

First is the obvious material cost. In this case, 1.85% of WestJet's total pilot payroll goes to them with every pay. If ALPA is "us", then that money should stay with "us"!

Another cost is the emotional cost. Once ALPA is certified, choices and information are removed from the grassroots regular pilots. Not only in the way that MEC is "selected", but other things too. For instance once a strike vote is obtained, then power is removed from the membership and the MEC can call a strike anytime "it" wants. This long arduous process which often comes with uncertainty and lack of information has tremendous emotional toll on the pilot group.

Another cost is the relational cost with the company that usually changes into a confrontational combative one. As usually the most vocal disgruntled pilots lead the way for certification which ALPA "supports" and then naturally those are installed in positions of power. This group however, does not garner an amicable working relationship with management. When there is little connection in the negotiation process, there could be little improvements in the fortunes of the pilots as they desired.

This is why the whole set-up of unions is out of date that while they reap the financial benefit of the deal, they carry little responsibility and the burden still rests with the pilot group to nurture a cordial relationship with management and foster a positive atmosphere conducive to improvements in the futures and fortunes of the employee group, while continuing to pay another agency large sums of money for "protection". I believe there is another "organization" that does that!

If there were ever a true representative and professional organization, it would have to be not for profit at the national level with minimal contributions, while individual members can donate extra if they wish. This organization would strive first and foremost to improve relationships among all pilots (not calling each other scabs) and also nurture an amicable and cooperative relationship with management groups.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Alcoholism
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Alcoholism » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:55 am

When is the de-certification vote?
---------- ADS -----------
  

True North
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by True North » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:09 am

What I find rather amusing is that there seem to be a good number of WJ pilots surprised by this outcome.

This is all on script.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TheStig
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by TheStig » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:34 am

Cloak I have the answer to what you’re looking for: ACPA.
---------- ADS -----------
  

rudder
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1798
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by rudder » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:41 am

Just curious - what were the terms of reference for the arbitrator? Who set the terms? What input did ALPA have to the terms? What was the company submission to the arbitrator? What was the WJ pilot submission to the arbitrator? Was there an opportunity for rebuttal submissions? Did the parties ever consider having the arbitrator act as a mediator/arbitrator to attempt to achieve a consensual agreement on outstanding items?

I generally believe that collective agreement settlement arbitrations are tilted in favour of the company. And sadly the comparators in Canada are not obviously favourable to achieving meaningful gains by third party decree.

The AC pilots were given several serious setbacks in arbitration in 2010. However, they have done a good job at each opportunity since then to make improvements in areas deemed priorities by the membership.

Identify opportunities to create leverage and decide which deficiencies in the arbitrated collective agreement need priority improvement. Nothing in this business is static nor is it entirely predictable. Over the next 4 years the company will come calling looking for some type of relief. Use those discussions to advance the pilot agenda.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Bacunayagua
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Bacunayagua » Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:07 pm

FlyAlberta wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:34 am
Bacunayagua wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:07 am
I take it now one really knows whats going on with the "one-list"?

One list has been agreed to be kept by both WS/WR MEC’s. Just waiting on the company to sign on and make it an LOU. In all communications to the pilot groups the company says they want to keep the one list. They’ve been waiting for the arbitration to be completed and apparently will meet with the MEC’s beginning of January to finalize.

With that said, I’ve heard some of the OTS (post 2013) mainline hires have already lawyered up in an attempt to sewer the Encore pilots and gain some ground on the seniority list.
Ok. How does that work when the company said , "All Encore pilots who have flowed to Westjet will retain their seniority number"

What about senior pilots that are currently still at Encore and have deferred their move for the time being? Or has no one at Encore delayed the move?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”