SWOOP - A New Hires Future

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cloak
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:06 pm

skybaron wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:57 am
...
Continue on with the mass exodus, and ultra disgruntled employee group.

Big Red, for one, welcomes your professionalism.
But, at the bottom of their list, with 4 years of "probationary" pay that Air Canada pilots approved!

Until and unless there is a national seniority system based on license number, fact of the matter is that pilots' fates are much more closely tied to their companies, as opposed to other pilots, for instance pilots of Canada 3000, Skyservice and others that had to start over again. Unless of course ACPA reduces probationary pay freeze, and recommends to Air Canada to recognize new hires' past 705 experience.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by C-GGGQ » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:37 pm

skybaron wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:43 pm
:up:

Vindicated.

Let’s be clear, while OTS didn’t help matters, it is in fact the COMPANY that started this disaster, and it’s the shareholders and BOD getting the rewards. They just pegged the pilot group against each other knowing full well the outcome. Teal pawns.
I don't think that's vindication. The company wouldn't have been able to play pilots against eachother if the OTS guys hadn't signed on knowing they were skirting a labour dispute.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Hangry » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:50 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:54 am
jjj wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:17 pm
Don't forget - you don't have to fly with that guy who actually thought Swoop was a new airline entity all to itself. He left for another gig. That's gotta be worth something.

JJJ
Love what you guys have done with the place since we left.
I’m sure it’s much a much better working environment there with all the happy WestJet transfers than it ever was with the evil OTS hires. Thank god you got those bottom feeding guys gone so you could lock in those same conditions for 4 years for your own pilots. God knows what might have happened if they’d been allowed to stay and all you focused on was scope and capping them at 10 or 20 aircraft. They might have even tried to negotiate Sunwing wage steps and their own contract in a few months without ALPAs help! Can you imagine what a disaster that might have been!!?
Gross
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:06 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:37 pm
The company wouldn't have been able to play pilots against eachother if the OTS guys hadn't signed on knowing they were skirting a labour dispute.
So you're saying that ALPA wanted to prevent anyone else from taking what they perceived as "well-paying" jobs for them, so that the company is forced to pay more? Clearly not a very compelling negotiation strategy as seen by the results! Plus evidence seems to indicate that WestJet was prepared to escalate matters further as they perceived Swoop an existential defensive necessity. It's easy to blame the breakdown of relationship on others, but that doesn't make it true!
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by DropTanks » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:35 pm

Just a correction to the OP.

Overtime is after 90hrs. Not 80.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:46 pm

DropTanks wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:35 pm
Just a correction to the OP.

Overtime is after 90hrs. Not 80.
Corrected! Thanks.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by .80@410 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:36 am

cloak wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:06 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:37 pm
The company wouldn't have been able to play pilots against eachother if the OTS guys hadn't signed on knowing they were skirting a labour dispute.
So you're saying that ALPA wanted to prevent anyone else from taking what they perceived as "well-paying" jobs for them, so that the company is forced to pay more? Clearly not a very compelling negotiation strategy as seen by the results! Plus evidence seems to indicate that WestJet was prepared to escalate matters further as they perceived Swoop an existential defensive necessity. It's easy to blame the breakdown of relationship on others, but that doesn't make it true!
Oh god, don’t play so stupid.
The company didn’t see it as a defense, they saw it as a work around of an forthcoming union.

Wj Blaming Swoop on a necessary defense against the “hordes” of upcoming ULCCs doesn’t make the defense of ‘Swoops necessity’ true either, but they claimed it anyway.
At least Kaplan cut them off at the knees regarding their WB plans and unlimited growth. It’s not a perfect scope, but it’s something.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:39 am

.80@410 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:36 am

Oh god, don’t play so stupid.
The company didn’t see it as a defense, they saw it as a work around of an forthcoming union.

Wj Blaming Swoop on a necessary defense against the “hordes” of upcoming ULCCs doesn’t make the defense of ‘Swoops necessity’ true either, but they claimed it anyway.
At least Kaplan cut them off at the knees regarding their WB plans and unlimited growth. It’s not a perfect scope, but it’s something.
Mach 0.80 at FL 410, you seem to be experiencing high speed buffet ace! Perhaps you should slow down and show some respect, especially in discussions that were not with you! Internet anonymity doesn't give you the freedom to be abusive. And if you feel WestJet is such evil corporation that is enslaving you, for your own peace of mind and that of others, you can always work elsewhere, life is too short!
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:11 pm

tbaylx wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:54 am
jjj wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:17 pm
Don't forget - you don't have to fly with that guy who actually thought Swoop was a new airline entity all to itself. He left for another gig. That's gotta be worth something.

JJJ
Love what you guys have done with the place since we left.
I’m sure it’s much a much better working environment there with all the happy WestJet transfers than it ever was with the evil OTS hires. Thank god you got those bottom feeding guys gone so you could lock in those same conditions for 4 years for your own pilots. God knows what might have happened if they’d been allowed to stay and all you focused on was scope and capping them at 10 or 20 aircraft. They might have even tried to negotiate Sunwing wage steps and their own contract in a few months without ALPAs help! Can you imagine what a disaster that might have been!!?
Hey Tbalx,

God knows what would have happened if the likes of you had stayed away when we were sorting this out. You had months of notice before stepping willfully into this pile of doo doo. The company was after the pilots even before ALPA was on the property so thanks for coming out and thinking you and your lot somehow had the bargaining power to make things better.

Enjoy your time at Flair.

JJJ
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:16 pm

jjj wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:11 pm
tbaylx wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:54 am
jjj wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:17 pm
Don't forget - you don't have to fly with that guy who actually thought Swoop was a new airline entity all to itself. He left for another gig. That's gotta be worth something.

JJJ
Love what you guys have done with the place since we left.
I’m sure it’s much a much better working environment there with all the happy WestJet transfers than it ever was with the evil OTS hires. Thank god you got those bottom feeding guys gone so you could lock in those same conditions for 4 years for your own pilots. God knows what might have happened if they’d been allowed to stay and all you focused on was scope and capping them at 10 or 20 aircraft. They might have even tried to negotiate Sunwing wage steps and their own contract in a few months without ALPAs help! Can you imagine what a disaster that might have been!!?
Hey Tbalx,

God knows what would have happened if the likes of you had stayed away when we were sorting this out. You had months of notice before stepping willfully into this pile of doo doo. The company was after the pilots even before ALPA was on the property so thanks for coming out and thinking you and your lot somehow had the bargaining power to make things better.

Enjoy your time at Flair.

JJJ
JJJ, once again you sound like a whiny little girl crying over spilt milk. If it wasn't that group of swoop pilots it would have been another group of swoop pilots. As soon as the company decided to do what they did (for debatable reasons). The hand was played.

Similar to the ongoing Jazz moaning, If it wasn't Georgian it would have been some other company.

I feel for you guys, I really do. But you have been screwed over by WestJet management not by pilots.

I get this feeling of helplessness you feel, you've been played and it sucks. Turn your wrath where it belongs: corporate MBA ruthlessness and this screwed up system we call Canadian aviation.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by moe » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:32 pm

tb. Scabaroony.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:59 pm

jjj wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:11 pm

Hey Tbalx,

God knows what would have happened if the likes of you had stayed away when we were sorting this out. You had months of notice before stepping willfully into this pile of doo doo. The company was after the pilots even before ALPA was on the property so thanks for coming out and thinking you and your lot somehow had the bargaining power to make things better.

Enjoy your time at Flair.

JJJ
So if there were no other pilots and all the other airlines went bankrupt too perhaps your would have got what you wanted, great plan!
I wonder how other airlines have great contracts without resorting to bans, restrictions, bullying, incantations and voodoo magic?!!
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Bede » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:06 am

From my understanding, the vast majority of Swoop pilots (including Swoop captains) want to bid back to WJ (most as FO's). That should tell you something about working at Swoop. Unfortunately, the company is only letting 3 come back for "operation reasons".

Swoop is probably the worst 705 job in the country right now (they have to pay for their own Coke's- only water is free- and only because it's the law). Yes, it's Sunwing's pay scale, but without the perks at SW (2x OT, etc). They took the worst aspects of everyone's contract and call it industry standard.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by munzil » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:22 am

Bede wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:06 am
From my understanding, the vast majority of Swoop pilots (including Swoop captains) want to bid back to WJ (most as FO's). That should tell you something about working at Swoop. Unfortunately, the company is only letting 3 come back for "operation reasons".

Swoop is probably the worst 705 job in the country right now (they have to pay for their own Coke's- only water is free- and only because it's the law). Yes, it's Sunwing's pay scale, but without the perks at SW (2x OT, etc). They took the worst aspects of everyone's contract and call it industry standard.
Sunwing captain pays more than swoop. Add a winter or summer deployment and it will add another 50%. More take-home pay I would wager than WJ mainline.

Point taken though. Still far less than industry standard if we say the 'industry' is north American instead of that giant red monopoly that artificially pushes down wages for the rest of us
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by altiplano » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:37 am

AC pushing down wages in this country? LOL... more like getting dragged down...
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:59 am

altiplano wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:37 am
AC pushing down wages in this country? LOL... more like getting dragged down...
AC is definitely the reason for supressed wages in Canada with its low "probationary" pay, a probation that somehow lasts 4 years!!
It is easily 40% behind its U.S counterparts dollar to dollar (not counting exchange rate) in first year pay, never mind year 2 to 4!
That is where the change needs to start, that and ideally credit for previous 705 experience (reportedly beginning to happen in the U.S).
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:25 pm

DaveP wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:55 pm
SwoopStar wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:10 pm
flyinhigh wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:20 pm
Ok your right,

However, if you bid to rouge 320 you are frozen to the 320 at rouge with no chance to bid 320 mainline.

Again, Swoop is absolute shit. I don’t blame you for wanting to get out. But accepting a job at very subpar conditions that you were well aware of,in the hopes/attempt to get ahead and than to come and complain about it. Sorry but no sympathy from this guy.

Hmm, perhaps you misread my original post. It serves to educate those applying/have applied to WestJet.

There are 100+ new hires this year at WestJet and no one knows what is happening at Swoop. Swoop alone will grow by 4 aircraft requiring 20-30 FOs.

The 24 month freeze does not apply to those presently at Swoop. Many of those have chosen to bid out including Swoop Captains back to mainline FO positions.

I would say if you're hired by WestJet, there is a 50% chance you'll draw Swoop. And you're frozen for 2 years.

If you're applying to WestJet, you're really applying to Swoop. That is the truth.
Hi,
The current 737 posting is for both Swoop and the WestJet 737. When the candidates come in - we simply ask them what they want. Some only want WJ, some will take either and contrary to most opinions - some want swoop because they live close to YHM or YEG.

The swoop internal bid will be coming out in the next few days for both YEG and YHM (to both WestJet and Encore). Then any unfilled positions will be from off the street (we will be very clear on these offers). As for WJ, we are still planning to bring on 100 plus this year at WestJet. As published in our quarterly bid that just closed, 28 upgrades to Yyz, a few base transfers on this bid along with 10 787 and 12 67 captain spots along with 48 newhire WJ 737 spots. Trip and duty rigs, New Duty rules and reserve along with widebody growth will be the key to future hiring and upgrading. Swoop will be hiring for the next plane that comes in the spring.

I’m not sure where a few got the idea that you are hired at the WestJet group - then assigned your position when you are on property. That’s simply not the case. You are offered your position and company prior to accepting the position.

The amended and recently clarified Swoop Lou (as per Kaplan) includes years of service for time served at swoop when you upgrade at WJ (are now counted) It’s true there is no airport reserve either, however they are reviewing some language around call out. Kaplan also removed a day of work (I think the max is 18 now). He also recently clarified the new widebody rates for WJ.

Lots going on for sure!
Dave
Thanks for the input. This differs from the AC/RV model where the assumption came. I stand corrected.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:35 pm

It is important to note that 50 or so Swoop pilots are screaming to get back to mainline to fill positions that are presently being filled by new hires.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Boreas » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 pm

SwoopStar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:35 pm
It is important to note that 50 or so Swoop pilots are screaming to get back to mainline to fill positions that are presently being filled by new hires. No one knows what the outcome will be.
Can you elaborate on this?

Are these former WJ F/Os that went to Swoop for a Capt. position and now want to go back to being F/Os at WJ? If so, why?
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:58 pm

Boreas wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 pm
SwoopStar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:35 pm
It is important to note that 50 or so Swoop pilots are screaming to get back to mainline to fill positions that are presently being filled by new hires. No one knows what the outcome will be.
Can you elaborate on this?

Are these former WJ F/Os that went to Swoop for a Capt. position and now want to go back to being F/Os at WJ? If so, why?
They're paid less and work more.

An example of a FO with 4 years at WS on Step 5.

Step 5 FO - 103$/hr, 20%ESP, Stock Options (5500$) profit share, Max 16days worked.

Swoop CA - 105/hr, 10%ESP, profit share, 12500 1 year retention bonus. Max 18 days worked , Reserve.

I would say 2/3 to 3/4 of Swoop Captains fall into this category.

Of note, the 12500 retention bonus is no longer offered to those joining Swoop after Jan. 1st 2019.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Boreas » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:18 pm

SwoopStar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:58 pm
Boreas wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 pm
SwoopStar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:35 pm
It is important to note that 50 or so Swoop pilots are screaming to get back to mainline to fill positions that are presently being filled by new hires. No one knows what the outcome will be.
Can you elaborate on this?

Are these former WJ F/Os that went to Swoop for a Capt. position and now want to go back to being F/Os at WJ? If so, why?
They're paid less and work more.

An example of a FO with 4 years at WS on Step 5.

Step 5 FO - 103$/hr, 20%ESP, Stock Options (5500$) profit share, Max 16days worked.

Swoop CA - 105/hr, 10%ESP, profit share, 12500 1 year retention bonus. Max 18 days worked , Reserve.

I would say 2/3 to 3/4 of Swoop Captains fall into this category.

Of note, the 12500 retention bonus is no longer offered to those joining Swoop after Jan. 1st 2019.
And they weren't aware of the WAWCON before they made the move!? I mean... why would you go over in the first place?
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:32 pm

I think cause the WAWCON wasn't set yet. They were hoping for better in the arbitration
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:35 pm

Boreas wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:18 pm
SwoopStar wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:58 pm
Boreas wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 pm
Can you elaborate on this?

Are these former WJ F/Os that went to Swoop for a Capt. position and now want to go back to being F/Os at WJ? If so, why?
They're paid less and work more.

An example of a FO with 4 years at WS on Step 5.

Step 5 FO - 103$/hr, 20%ESP, Stock Options (5500$) profit share, Max 16days worked.

Swoop CA - 105/hr, 10%ESP, profit share, 12500 1 year retention bonus. Max 18 days worked , Reserve.

I would say 2/3 to 3/4 of Swoop Captains fall into this category.

Of note, the 12500 retention bonus is no longer offered to those joining Swoop after Jan. 1st 2019.
And they weren't aware of the WAWCON before they made the move!? I mean... why would you go over in the first place?

The bids were completed prior to the arbitrator's award, which determined WAWCON.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Boreas » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:38 pm

Ahhhh, so they speculated and got burned. Nothing new there...
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Sharklasers » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:50 am

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