SWOOP - A New Hires Future

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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:22 am

Donald wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:13 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:28 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:55 am
Well, thank goodness the MEC spent all that negotiating capital on getting rid of those OTS pilots. Cause things seem pretty awesome over there at swoop. But hey, at least we put guys like tbaylx in their place. Right? Totally worth it! Now we can watch the left seat at swoop go to junior encore FO's. Almost a thousand spots out of seniority! Cause there's nothing wrong with that? Nope. Totally makes sense.

Yeah...Winning indeed.
Yup . Still rather the spots go to Encore FOs than the OTS guys. Sorry you don’t understand that.
Good luck to the training department dealing with that.

When people ask my opinion of booking on Swoop, I'll make sure to mention the experience level of their crews.
Yes, Donald! But make sure you tell them that it didn't go OTS. That's important. Winning.
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Donald
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Donald » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:49 am

digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:21 am
Donald wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:16 am
digits_ wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:01 am
Is there a limit to the amount of days off you can request per month? :twisted:

Are swoop pilots obligated to keep their phone on 24/7 on their days off now?

Good that they are scrambling for crews. Bad how they are trying to deal with it...
I can picture a pilot requesting 12 days off, but instead being scheduled for those days and getting other days off. That way Crew sked has a pilot available to them for the entire month. Like the junior pilot who requests weekends off, but never gets them.
I was thinking more in the lines of requesting 30 days/month off. That way every day off that is awarded, is by definition a requested day off, and thus not one of those grey day thingies they are trying to force where you are supposed to go to work without extra compensation.
I'd guess they are restricted to only bidding 10-12 days off per month max.

Swoopstar? Tbaylx?
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av8ts
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by av8ts » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:59 am

Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:22 am
Donald wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:13 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:28 am


Yup . Still rather the spots go to Encore FOs than the OTS guys. Sorry you don’t understand that.
Good luck to the training department dealing with that.

When people ask my opinion of booking on Swoop, I'll make sure to mention the experience level of their crews.
Yes, Donald! But make sure you tell them that it didn't go OTS. That's important. Winning.
Positions should only be filled OTS if nobody already at the company bids for then. It’s not rocket surgery 🙄
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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 am

av8ts wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:59 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:22 am
Donald wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:13 am


Good luck to the training department dealing with that.

When people ask my opinion of booking on Swoop, I'll make sure to mention the experience level of their crews.
Yes, Donald! But make sure you tell them that it didn't go OTS. That's important. Winning.
Positions should only be filled OTS if nobody already at the company bids for then. It’s not rocket surgery 🙄
WJ management WILL NOT upgrade an Encore FO onto a 737. NEVER. WON'T HAPPEN. Ever. Get that sh!t through your head today. It'll make life so much easier.

It's not brain science.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by FL410AV8R » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:41 am

Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:19 am

Enjoy f*cking this airline into the ground! You're off to a hell of a start.
I'm pretty sure management has that market cornered.

It takes a special kind of stupid to turn one of the most motivated pilot groups in the world into one of the most unmotivated in a few short years.
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Donald
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Donald » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:46 am

Are Swoop pilots represented by ALPA, or do you leave the union when you transition?
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eyebrow737
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by eyebrow737 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:14 am

.80@410 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:30 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:59 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:55 am
Well, thank goodness the MEC spent all that negotiating capital on getting rid of those OTS pilots. Cause things seem pretty awesome over there at swoop. But hey, at least we put guys like tbaylx in their place. Right? Totally worth it! Now we can watch the left seat at swoop go to junior encore FO's. Almost a thousand spots out of seniority! Cause there's nothing wrong with that? Nope. Totally makes sense.

Yeah...Winning indeed.
Watch everybody come back and attack this statement, truth as it is.
Truth to you, luckily you are the minority :goodman:
WestJet is a minority in Canadian Aviation. Don't forget that. And the way you are all going you will be nothing more than a memory.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:18 am

Donald wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:46 am
Are Swoop pilots represented by ALPA, or do you leave the union when you transition?
Common employer, Swoop pilots are represented by the WJ MEC
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jjj
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:36 pm

Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:19 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:28 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:55 am
Well, thank goodness the MEC spent all that negotiating capital on getting rid of those OTS pilots. Cause things seem pretty awesome over there at swoop. But hey, at least we put guys like tbaylx in their place. Right? Totally worth it! Now we can watch the left seat at swoop go to junior encore FO's. Almost a thousand spots out of seniority! Cause there's nothing wrong with that? Nope. Totally makes sense.

Yeah...Winning indeed.
Yup . Still rather the spots go to Encore FOs than the OTS guys. Sorry you don’t understand that.
Oh dear lord! I don't even know how to respond to that. You're right. I don't get it! I really don't, and for good reason, cause that is by far the stupidest sh!t that I've ever heard!

That statement encapsulates the utter arrogance and the gross hypocrisy of what happened at Swoop. That remark is utterly baffling. "Lets upgrade a guy who landed here 6 months ago, with less experience and no 37 time, as long as we stick it to those OTS guys."

Doesn't matter anyway, cause I know the second floor well, and it'll be a blustery day in hell before that ever happens - Swoop WILL go OTS again. Nothing was resolved, only delayed.

Enjoy f*cking this airline into the ground! You're off to a hell of a start.
The only people f ing SWOOP into the ground is the parent company.

Lots of qualified guys would be happy to do that flying. Just not for Tbalyx style wages and grey days. The company could fix this mess in 24 hours. It's not a big problem - they just can't wrap their head around the math. I'll send my kid over with a blank sheet of paper and some crayons - he can explain it in about five minutes.

The pilots aren't f ing anything but thanks for coming out Alpha Male.

JJJ
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NoSocks
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by NoSocks » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:32 pm

jjj wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:36 pm
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:19 am
.80@410 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:28 am


Yup . Still rather the spots go to Encore FOs than the OTS guys. Sorry you don’t understand that.
Oh dear lord! I don't even know how to respond to that. You're right. I don't get it! I really don't, and for good reason, cause that is by far the stupidest sh!t that I've ever heard!

That statement encapsulates the utter arrogance and the gross hypocrisy of what happened at Swoop. That remark is utterly baffling. "Lets upgrade a guy who landed here 6 months ago, with less experience and no 37 time, as long as we stick it to those OTS guys."

Doesn't matter anyway, cause I know the second floor well, and it'll be a blustery day in hell before that ever happens - Swoop WILL go OTS again. Nothing was resolved, only delayed.

Enjoy f*cking this airline into the ground! You're off to a hell of a start.
The only people f ing SWOOP into the ground is the parent company.

Lots of qualified guys would be happy to do that flying. Just not for Tbalyx style wages and grey days. The company could fix this mess in 24 hours. It's not a big problem - they just can't wrap their head around the math. I'll send my kid over with a blank sheet of paper and some crayons - he can explain it in about five minutes.

The pilots aren't f ing anything but thanks for coming out Alpha Male.

JJJ
I think its time that the pilot group accept the fact that they tried to call the companies bluff and they lost. Organizing got you into this mess. Perhaps you should send your kid over to ALPA HQ with those crayons.
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cloak
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:28 am

.80@410 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:30 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:59 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:55 am
Well, thank goodness the MEC spent all that negotiating capital on getting rid of those OTS pilots. Cause things seem pretty awesome over there at swoop. But hey, at least we put guys like tbaylx in their place. Right? Totally worth it! Now we can watch the left seat at swoop go to junior encore FO's. Almost a thousand spots out of seniority! Cause there's nothing wrong with that? Nope. Totally makes sense.

Yeah...Winning indeed.
Watch everybody come back and attack this statement, truth as it is.
Truth to you, luckily you are the minority :goodman:
Clearly there is no way of truly measuring this vs. that and everyone is just too happy to speak on behalf of the entire world! At the same time, based on my various conversations, I'd say that thankfully opinions such as yours are a very small minority. And thankfully so. Vindictive, emotional and ongoing resentment like that is just not good for anyone, especially the person oneself. Most people realize that everyone needs to right the ship again and start rowing in the same direction. Furthermore, union or not, there are minimum experience requirements that must me met and just because the dues are going to Virginia, doesn't mean that they just start going from the top of the list calling names. Besides, Encore pilots are not in the same bargaining unit and not yet on the same seniority list. At any rate, cutting the nose to spite the face is not very clever!

As for the comment about grey days and such, my sources on the ground say otherwise. It is clear that most of the guys that went to Swoop, did so under the false promises by ALPA that encouraged them to bid these positions saying that there was going to wage parity or very close to it. Clearly they were in no position to make such promises, no one really could make any promises. As a result, understandably they are very disappointed with the outcome and great majority have bid to go back, but if one really investigates, one may discover that it is sometimes just a bidding tactic as not to be frozen in the position and when the time comes, hard to say how many actually would. At any rate, disappointed or not, making things up just out of anger and disappointment is never wise as it leads to misunderstanding and misinformation and just not very helpful.
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av8ts
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by av8ts » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 am

Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 am
av8ts wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:59 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:22 am


Yes, Donald! But make sure you tell them that it didn't go OTS. That's important. Winning.
Positions should only be filled OTS if nobody already at the company bids for then. It’s not rocket surgery 🙄
WJ management WILL NOT upgrade an Encore FO onto a 737. NEVER. WON'T HAPPEN. Ever. Get that sh!t through your head today. It'll make life so much easier.

It's not brain science.
If they are qualified, why not?
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SwoopStar
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:03 am

Cloak,

It is true that GREY DAYS are not in effect as the final draft of the LOU has yet to be completed.

However SWOOP's position is that the definition of a "day off" allows for GREY DAYS.

It is now another battle for ALPA to fight.

SWOOP FAs operate under GREY DAYS.
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Last edited by SwoopStar on Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

SwoopStar
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by SwoopStar » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:14 am

Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 am
av8ts wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:59 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:22 am


Yes, Donald! But make sure you tell them that it didn't go OTS. That's important. Winning.
Positions should only be filled OTS if nobody already at the company bids for then. It’s not rocket surgery 🙄
WJ management WILL NOT upgrade an Encore FO onto a 737. NEVER. WON'T HAPPEN. Ever. Get that sh!t through your head today. It'll make life so much easier.

It's not brain science.

What does WestJet management think of 1500hr new hire FOs at SWOOP? That's what SWOOP is targeting for recruitment. SWOOP leadership acknowledges it will be single pilot IFR in a B737-800.

Meanwhile our competitor has the luxury to pick from a pool of 5000+hr 737NG pilots.

Sadly, I feel the common sense and expertise of the second floor is being ignored in the pursuit of an Ultra Low Cost Pilot.
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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:22 pm

av8ts wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 am
If they are qualified, why not?
1500 hours and an ATPL makes you "qualified"? Sorry, you're not qualified. Give your head a shake. It's that kind of arrogance and entitlement that led me to say, "you're f*cking this airline into the ground". Saving face and honouring "seniority" comes before any semblance of common sense. You're entitled to your entitlements. Damn practicality and safety. You're owed something.

Aviation is littered with the wreckage of perfectly airworthy aircraft, piloted by guys with that attitude. You'd rather hold onto your principles and arrogance than admit that you have no idea what you're doing. In your world its about "who's right, not what's right". Yes, that attitude will fu*k this airline into the ground.

And I think this sums it up...
SwoopStar wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:14 am
What does WestJet management think of 1500hr new hire FOs at SWOOP? That's what SWOOP is targeting for recruitment. SWOOP leadership acknowledges it will be single pilot IFR in a B737-800.

Meanwhile our competitor has the luxury to pick from a pool of 5000+hr 737NG pilots.

Sadly, I feel the common sense and expertise of the second floor is being ignored in the pursuit of an Ultra Low Cost Pilot.
This is exactly WHY we needed/need the OTS pilots.

Just cause it hurts your ego, doesn't make it wrong. Grow up!
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mmm..bacon
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by mmm..bacon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:06 pm

Grey days - days ‘off’...if I can’t sit down at lunch and have a beer with a friend, then it ain’t a day off!
( Not that I need alcohol to have a good time - more that I know that I won’t get called for work for the next 8/10/12 hours...)
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tps8903
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by tps8903 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:40 pm

av8ts wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 am
av8ts wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:59 am


Positions should only be filled OTS if nobody already at the company bids for then. It’s not rocket surgery 🙄
WJ management WILL NOT upgrade an Encore FO onto a 737. NEVER. WON'T HAPPEN. Ever. Get that sh!t through your head today. It'll make life so much easier.

It's not brain science.
If they are qualified, why not?
Ahhhh, ALPA Male, don't know if you saw the last PSB (last week) for Swoop but 5 Encore FO's are going on the 37.......
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jjj
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:05 pm

Alpha Male,

We've never needed the OTS guys at Swoop. We need a fair wage for a fair day's work on a 37.

As far as the original OTS guys at Swoop went - they were hardly cream of the crop. Some serious problems with hands and feet. Scary stuff.

JJJ
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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:43 pm

tps8903 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:40 pm
av8ts wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:17 am


WJ management WILL NOT upgrade an Encore FO onto a 737. NEVER. WON'T HAPPEN. Ever. Get that sh!t through your head today. It'll make life so much easier.

It's not brain science.
If they are qualified, why not?
Ahhhh, ALPA Male, don't know if you saw the last PSB (last week) for Swoop but 5 Encore FO's are going on the 37.......
Ahhhh, tps8903, they're not going as Captains.
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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:48 pm

jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:05 pm
Alpha Male,

We've never needed the OTS guys at Swoop. We need a fair wage for a fair day's work on a 37.

As far as the original OTS guys at Swoop went - they were hardly cream of the crop. Some serious problems with hands and feet. Scary stuff.

JJJ
Ok, but here lies the hypocrisy in that - why is it ok for anyone at WJ/Encore to bid onto Swoop? Why do they get a pass? Why aren't they accused of "lowering the bar"? It's a little disingenuous to discredit an OTS pilot for lowering the bar when WJ pilots line up for the same position. Hi pot, meet kettle.
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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:56 pm

jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:05 pm
Alpha Male,

We've never needed the OTS guys at Swoop. We need a fair wage for a fair day's work on a 37.

As far as the original OTS guys at Swoop went - they were hardly cream of the crop. Some serious problems with hands and feet. Scary stuff.

JJJ
Oh, and there's no proof to validate your last statement. Only forum conjecture, based on hearsay and bias.

At any rate, disappointed or not, making things up just out of anger and disappointment is never wise as it leads to misunderstanding and misinformation and just not very helpful. Right, Cloak?
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cloak
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:24 pm

jjj, M.80@410 and a few others speak of "OTS" as if they came into this world at WestJet as baby pilots, LOL!!!
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jjj
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:39 pm

Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:48 pm
jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:05 pm
Alpha Male,

We've never needed the OTS guys at Swoop. We need a fair wage for a fair day's work on a 37.

As far as the original OTS guys at Swoop went - they were hardly cream of the crop. Some serious problems with hands and feet. Scary stuff.

JJJ
Ok, but here lies the hypocrisy in that - why is it ok for anyone at WJ/Encore to bid onto Swoop? Why do they get a pass? Why aren't they accused of "lowering the bar"? It's a little disingenuous to discredit an OTS pilot for lowering the bar when WJ pilots line up for the same position. Hi pot, meet kettle.
There is no hypocrisy in WJ/Encore bidding onto Swoop. They are bidding into a position by seniority. They are not trying to circumvent a labour group and dispute like the original OTS guys did. The ones that stuck around have another shot at bidding their crappy jobs back.

I too share everyone's concern about experience levels of some guys bidding Swoop. From what I can tell - it's unlikely that all whom are awarded will be able to pass training.
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jjj
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:41 pm

Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:56 pm
jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:05 pm
Alpha Male,

We've never needed the OTS guys at Swoop. We need a fair wage for a fair day's work on a 37.

As far as the original OTS guys at Swoop went - they were hardly cream of the crop. Some serious problems with hands and feet. Scary stuff.

JJJ
Oh, and there's no proof to validate your last statement. Only forum conjecture, based on hearsay and bias.

At any rate, disappointed or not, making things up just out of anger and disappointment is never wise as it leads to misunderstanding and misinformation and just not very helpful. Right, Cloak?

Ask around and you'll get your answer. Not likely though that you'll get an answer on the record.

JJJ
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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:03 pm

jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:39 pm
Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:48 pm
jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:05 pm
Alpha Male,

We've never needed the OTS guys at Swoop. We need a fair wage for a fair day's work on a 37.

As far as the original OTS guys at Swoop went - they were hardly cream of the crop. Some serious problems with hands and feet. Scary stuff.

JJJ
Ok, but here lies the hypocrisy in that - why is it ok for anyone at WJ/Encore to bid onto Swoop? Why do they get a pass? Why aren't they accused of "lowering the bar"? It's a little disingenuous to discredit an OTS pilot for lowering the bar when WJ pilots line up for the same position. Hi pot, meet kettle.
There is no hypocrisy in WJ/Encore bidding onto Swoop. They are bidding into a position by seniority. They are not trying to circumvent a labour group and dispute like the original OTS guys did. The ones that stuck around have another shot at bidding their crappy jobs back.

I too share everyone's concern about experience levels of some guys bidding Swoop. From what I can tell - it's unlikely that all whom are awarded will be able to pass training.
See, that's where you're wrong. There's significant hypocrisy in your position. In one breathe, you lament about experience levels and the next you wave the seniority card. Honour seniority, regardless of ability and experience. You demand that WJ waste money and resources on people you say "won't be able to pass the training anyways." That is a wasteful, arrogant and entitled demand to place on your employer. One of the many demands that will "f*ck this airline into the ground."

Your statement regarding "those awarded not being able to pass training" also blows holes in your other argument regarding the OTS pilots ability - every OTS captain passed the training. If this isn't hypocrisy, I don't know what the hell is. But I'll be sure to "ask around."

All of your union expectations only delay the inevitable, and I hold to my original statement - nothing has been resolved, just delayed.
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Last edited by Alpa Male on Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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