SWOOP - A New Hires Future

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Alpa Male
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:36 pm

Coupled with the apparent hypocrisy of WJ/Encore pilots being absolved of "lowering the bar," makes for one messy and convoluted double standard.
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av8ts
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by av8ts » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:27 pm

Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:22 pm
av8ts wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 am
If they are qualified, why not?
1500 hours and an ATPL makes you "qualified"? Sorry, you're not qualified. Give your head a shake. It's that kind of arrogance and entitlement that led me to say, "you're f*cking this airline into the ground". Saving face and honouring "seniority" comes before any semblance of common sense. You're entitled to your entitlements. Damn practicality and safety. You're owed something.

Aviation is littered with the wreckage of perfectly airworthy aircraft, piloted by guys with that attitude. You'd rather hold onto your principles and arrogance than admit that you have no idea what you're doing. In your world its about "who's right, not what's right". Yes, that attitude will fu*k this airline into the ground.

And I think this sums it up...
SwoopStar wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:14 am
What does WestJet management think of 1500hr new hire FOs at SWOOP? That's what SWOOP is targeting for recruitment. SWOOP leadership acknowledges it will be single pilot IFR in a B737-800.

Meanwhile our competitor has the luxury to pick from a pool of 5000+hr 737NG pilots.

Sadly, I feel the common sense and expertise of the second floor is being ignored in the pursuit of an Ultra Low Cost Pilot.
This is exactly WHY we needed/need the OTS pilots.

Just cause it hurts your ego, doesn't make it wrong. Grow up!
Whoa, easy there Mr butt hurt. I didn’t say 1500 hours MAKES you qualified. I said IF they are qualified then they should get the job
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jjj
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:07 pm

Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:03 pm
jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:39 pm
Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:48 pm


Ok, but here lies the hypocrisy in that - why is it ok for anyone at WJ/Encore to bid onto Swoop? Why do they get a pass? Why aren't they accused of "lowering the bar"? It's a little disingenuous to discredit an OTS pilot for lowering the bar when WJ pilots line up for the same position. Hi pot, meet kettle.
There is no hypocrisy in WJ/Encore bidding onto Swoop. They are bidding into a position by seniority. They are not trying to circumvent a labour group and dispute like the original OTS guys did. The ones that stuck around have another shot at bidding their crappy jobs back.

I too share everyone's concern about experience levels of some guys bidding Swoop. From what I can tell - it's unlikely that all whom are awarded will be able to pass training.
See, that's where you're wrong. There's significant hypocrisy in your position. In one breathe, you lament about experience levels and the next you wave the seniority card. Honour seniority, regardless of ability and experience. You demand that WJ waste money and resources on people you say "won't be able to pass the training anyways." That is a wasteful, arrogant and entitled demand to place on your employer. One of the many demands that will "f*ck this airline into the ground."

Your statement regarding "those awarded not being able to pass training" also blows holes in your other argument regarding the OTS pilots ability - every OTS captain passed the training. If this isn't hypocrisy, I don't know what the hell is. But I'll be sure to "ask around."

All of your union expectations only delay the inevitable, and I hold to my original statement - nothing has been resolved, just delayed.
Alpha,

As in other airlines - seniority rules. After that - you need to meet standard. I prefer it when my 8+ year 737 FOs upgrade because they exceed standard.

I never said to honour seniority at the expense of a standard. You have to be able to do the job. When you join an airline you go to the bottom - regardless of experience. Right or wrong that's how it works. That's why I can't escape here and go to AC as a Max Captain and be paid a wage commiserate with my experience. Odds are i bring more to a resume than your average pilot in the hiring pool at AC these days but unfortunately - nobody cares. If I was offered the job it is at the bottom regardless if the mothership would be better served by me doing something closer to what I do now.

Maybe the OTS met the mighty standard of a PPC ride. Doesn't mean it was up to par with the employee group they were circumventing.

When you're done reading this - Google "Straw Man Argument." It's a logical fallacy prominent in your writings. Read it through. Logical fallacies don't even require a response but I did so anyhow as a courtesy.

Cheers.

JJJ
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:08 pm

EDIT
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fish4life
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by fish4life » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:59 pm

I’ve heard people asking about some sort of “matrix” at encore for captains, does Swoop have one?
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Freeport_Flyer
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Freeport_Flyer » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:43 am

Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:22 pm
av8ts wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:02 am
If they are qualified, why not?
1500 hours and an ATPL makes you "qualified"? Sorry, you're not qualified. Give your head a shake. It's that kind of arrogance and entitlement that led me to say, "you're f*cking this airline into the ground". Saving face and honouring "seniority" comes before any semblance of common sense.
I think that making a broad based assessment of "qualified" based solely on a number is a dangerous way to view a pilot. I have known many 5000+hr pilots who have half the proficiency / talent as a pilot with less than 1000hrs! While I agree that there needs to be familiarity with an operation, what difference does it make to have an FO from a Q400 be an FO on 737? There is still a proficient and experienced pilot in the left seat that should be able to effectively mentor the new FO. That FO holds an ATPL and has gained enough experience / passed tests to be there. So why does the type make a difference?

Would you say that a 1500hr CF-18 pilot, intercepting a Russian bear in the high arctic isn't "qualified" to operate a single seat fighter?

I would argue that the truth of the matter is that there is a lot of hand-holding in a multi-crew cockpit and while there are situations the FO will not have seen, simply barring someone from position based on a number seems to be short sighted.

I get it... It's not how the industry used to be and plenty of people had to slug it out for years, and thousands of hours, before they got to see a jet cockpit. That's not how it is anymore and this pisses off a lot of people, and I continually hear moaning from others that all starts with "When I was a new FO..."

Having an FO from Encore bid on and get an FO position at Swoop shows the desire for advancement and that probably comes with initiative and drive. The industry will eventually beat that out of them, but why are you trying so hard to do it first?
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digits_
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by digits_ » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:03 am

SwoopStar wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:14 am
What does WestJet management think of 1500hr new hire FOs at SWOOP? That's what SWOOP is targeting for recruitment. SWOOP leadership acknowledges it will be single pilot IFR in a B737-800.
Whether the captain expects it will be single pilot IFR or a working multi crew environment, he will be right either way.

And that does not depend on the amount of hours the FO has.
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sstaurus
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by sstaurus » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:50 am

Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:36 pm
Coupled with the apparent hypocrisy of WJ/Encore pilots being absolved of "lowering the bar," makes for one messy and convoluted double standard.
I don't know about hypocrisy on this board, but to be fair most pilots at Encore do not want to support the conditions at Swoop. Like said before, there are always a few outliers who need that instagram selfie on a shiny jet, or are scared of the prospect of 5-6 years at Encore... But the majority, aren't interested.
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eyebrow737
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by eyebrow737 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:58 am

sstaurus wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:50 am
Alpa Male wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:36 pm
Coupled with the apparent hypocrisy of WJ/Encore pilots being absolved of "lowering the bar," makes for one messy and convoluted double standard.
I don't know about hypocrisy on this board, but to be fair most pilots at Encore do not want to support the conditions at Swoop. Like said before, there are always a few outliers who need that instagram selfie on a shiny jet, or are scared of the prospect of 5-6 years at Encore... But the majority, aren't interested.
As someone who has been in this industry just over 30 years, you have a very naive understanding of your fellow pilots
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by JBI » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:57 am

eyebrow737 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:58 am

As someone who has been in this industry just over 30 years, you have a very naive understanding of your fellow pilots
For the latest Swoop bid, a grand total of 6 of the 550 or so Encore pilots bid on the position. Of those 6, only 1 actually met the company's requirement of having been at Encore for over a year. Perhaps it's not sstaurus that is naive...

I've always said I won't judge a particular person for taking a particular position. I don't know their individual situations. I don't find the discussions about "scabs", "lowering the bar" etc. at all fruitful. Most of the pilots that I know that have gone to Swoop live near YEG or YHM, don't want to commute (or drive 2+ hours on the 401/QEW to YYZ) and while the conditions at Swoop suck, the benefit of not commuting outweighs that. All fair enough. Here's the thing though, there simply are not enough pilots in Canada that live in YEG or YHM that would be willing to take those positions with the current wages and working conditions to fill the 20 or 30 planes that Swoop has suggested it wants to grow to. As disappointing and frustrating as the positions are, my response is: Good luck filling those positions!
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by JBI » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:58 am

-double post-
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goingnowherefast
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:11 am

I hope they simply can't fill the positions. I hope WJ management is forced to approach the WJ MEC to negotiate raises and improved working conditions for pilots at swoop. Might take 6 months of charters and parked pink planes, but I predict it will happen.
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Hangry
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Hangry » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 am

Maybe the die hards will step up and bid these positions for the good of the company. I mean seniority doesn’t matter right? And the pay is fair.

Cmon boys. Don’t wuss out. Mothercorp needs you!
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by tps8903 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:20 pm

JBI wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:57 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:58 am

As someone who has been in this industry just over 30 years, you have a very naive understanding of your fellow pilots
For the latest Swoop bid, a grand total of 6 of the 550 or so Encore pilots bid on the position. Of those 6, only 1 actually met the company's requirement of having been at Encore for over a year. Perhaps it's not sstaurus that is naive...

I've always said I won't judge a particular person for taking a particular position. I don't know their individual situations. I don't find the discussions about "scabs", "lowering the bar" etc. at all fruitful. Most of the pilots that I know that have gone to Swoop live near YEG or YHM, don't want to commute (or drive 2+ hours on the 401/QEW to YYZ) and while the conditions at Swoop suck, the benefit of not commuting outweighs that. All fair enough. Here's the thing though, there simply are not enough pilots in Canada that live in YEG or YHM that would be willing to take those positions with the current wages and working conditions to fill the 20 or 30 planes that Swoop has suggested it wants to grow to. As disappointing and frustrating as the positions are, my response is: Good luck filling those positions!
+1

If the bidding goes by the same ratio next go around they will have 2 more people from Encore and then the Encore list will have been exhausted. 8 people of about 550, that's a pretty firm statement from the Encore crew.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Alpa Male » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:02 pm

jjj wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:07 pm

Alpha,

As in other airlines - seniority rules. After that - you need to meet standard. I prefer it when my 8+ year 737 FOs upgrade because they exceed standard.

I never said to honour seniority at the expense of a standard. You have to be able to do the job. When you join an airline you go to the bottom - regardless of experience. Right or wrong that's how it works. That's why I can't escape here and go to AC as a Max Captain and be paid a wage commiserate with my experience. Odds are i bring more to a resume than your average pilot in the hiring pool at AC these days but unfortunately - nobody cares. If I was offered the job it is at the bottom regardless if the mothership would be better served by me doing something closer to what I do now.

Maybe the OTS met the mighty standard of a PPC ride. Doesn't mean it was up to par with the employee group they were circumventing.

When you're done reading this - Google "Straw Man Argument." It's a logical fallacy prominent in your writings. Read it through. Logical fallacies don't even require a response but I did so anyhow as a courtesy.

Cheers.

JJJ
Wow, someone was the captain of their high school debate team! :)

You know what, jjj. You're right. It would appear that my arguments were somewhat fallacious. That was never my intention, but merely an emotional response to what I perceive as a general degradation to the attitude of this pilot group. An inflated sense of entitlement has taken over, and I genuinely believe that we wont survive another five years of this. I've been here a very long time, and have had the privilege of witnessing some fantastic things. I was a part of record-breaking growth and prosperity, and there's no reason that that can not continue. I know I say that I don't care because my time here is coming to an end, but that's not true. I care a great deal. As much as management need to reengage, this pilot group is in dire need of an attitude change. WestJets survival depends on it.

My posts, as argumentive and miscalculated as they may seem to you, are based on my personal experience. Not only from reading scathing and toxic reviews of our employer online but from sharing flight decks with pilots who tear this company to shreds. It wears on a person, and at times I respond in an emotional manner that tends to veer offside.

However, your last post made sense, and I appreciate what you said.

Cheers
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by jjj » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:38 pm

Cheers Alpha M.

JJJ
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by MrTurbine » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:49 am

JBI wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:57 am
eyebrow737 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:58 am

As someone who has been in this industry just over 30 years, you have a very naive understanding of your fellow pilots
For the latest Swoop bid, a grand total of 6 of the 550 or so Encore pilots bid on the position. Of those 6, only 1 actually met the company's requirement of having been at Encore for over a year. Perhaps it's not sstaurus that is naive...

I've always said I won't judge a particular person for taking a particular position. I don't know their individual situations. I don't find the discussions about "scabs", "lowering the bar" etc. at all fruitful. Most of the pilots that I know that have gone to Swoop live near YEG or YHM, don't want to commute (or drive 2+ hours on the 401/QEW to YYZ) and while the conditions at Swoop suck, the benefit of not commuting outweighs that. All fair enough. Here's the thing though, there simply are not enough pilots in Canada that live in YEG or YHM that would be willing to take those positions with the current wages and working conditions to fill the 20 or 30 planes that Swoop has suggested it wants to grow to. As disappointing and frustrating as the positions are, my response is: Good luck filling those positions!
Attaboy, well put 👏
I don’t have any personal issues towards the pilots taking the swoop spots. Butnumbers don’t lie, people who are currently at swoop absolutely hate it there. Every single encore pilot there has looked into coming back to encore.

Let’s not get carried away. Swoop is going to always have a hard time filling their spots.

In other news, enerjet is on the rise, and is going to kick ass, my prediction.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by cloak » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:57 am

A business not responding to market forces is doomed to failure. While there may be emotional retorts from those whose personal plans have been disrupted due to no fault of their own, the reality of the market is different and has demanded a condign response from WestJet to ensure its continued success and longevity. In terms of hiring, it will gradually resemble more the Air Canada/Jazz model, whereby a pilot is either hired by WestJet/Swoop (AC & Rouge), or Encore(Jazz) with the opportunity to flow to the former later, under separate bargaining units and separate seniority lists. As the pilot market heats up, the experience level of the two group will likely diverge more, requiring focus on different needs and challenges.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Diadem » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:52 am

cloak wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:57 am
A business not responding to market forces is doomed to failure. While there may be emotional retorts from those whose personal plans have been disrupted due to no fault of their own, the reality of the market is different and has demanded a condign response from WestJet to ensure its continued success and longevity. In terms of hiring, it will gradually resemble more the Air Canada/Jazz model, whereby a pilot is either hired by WestJet/Swoop (AC & Rouge), or Encore(Jazz) with the opportunity to flow to the former later, under separate bargaining units and separate seniority lists. As the pilot market heats up, the experience level of the two group will likely diverge more, requiring focus on different needs and challenges.
Those aren't comparable; Jazz isn't owned by AC. If WestJet decides that they want a different set-up, and that they're okay with a common seniority list, I guess you're up the creek behind a few hundred Encore pilots.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:54 am

Got that in the wrong order. Start at swoop, flow to Encore, then WJ. :smt040
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by .80@410 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:06 pm

cloak wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:57 am
A business not responding to market forces is doomed to failure. While there may be emotional retorts from those whose personal plans have been disrupted due to no fault of their own, the reality of the market is different and has demanded a condign response from WestJet
oh please. Your ignorance of managements intentions is laughable . This was a full - on attempt to reset the wage structure at WJ, and find an alternate to the unionized workforce . Anyone could run 10
Swoop planes at WJ wages and compete with Flair et al.

Wj just dreamed of starting WJ 2.0 and slowly sending all planes including WB to swoop. Luckily Kaplan cut them
Off aat the knees ( although 30 planes is still not ideal)
They have created quite a mess for themselves. Will be interesting so see how they climb out of it. This will be a university study for generations to come.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by JBI » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:08 pm

.80@410 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:06 pm
oh please. Your ignorance of managements intentions is laughable . This was a full - on attempt to reset the wage structure at WJ, and find an alternate to the unionized workforce . Anyone could run 10
Swoop planes at WJ wages and compete with Flair et al.

Wj just dreamed of starting WJ 2.0 and slowly sending all planes including WB to swoop. Luckily Kaplan cut them
Off aat the knees ( although 30 planes is still not ideal)
They have created quite a mess for themselves. Will be interesting so see how they climb out of it. This will be a university study for generations to come.
Hi .80@410,

I don't disagree with you - I've actually said that how Swoop was rolled out will be an MBA case study on how to take employee morale and trust and destroy it! But, I do think that it's important to distinguish when GGG, CK and BC were in executive roles and the decisions they made compared to the management currently in place. While many will suggest management is management and wish that the name on the first 787 would retire, I've been very impressed by the honesty and frankness of the newer executive leadership team.

The plan for now is 10 planes. As much as I think the working conditions at Swoop are poor and have said that directly to the Swoop President, I do think that they'll probably be able to crew 10 aircraft with the current conditions. Make no mistake, I am not excusing the conditions and they are not sufficient enough for me to want to work there, but I can see it making sense for some folks. However, I think the realities of the labour market are such that they'll have an extremely difficult time filling more than 10 planes with those conditions. I think some of the executives would also agree with that! It's at that point where you'll see more discussions with ALPA on conditions similar to AC recently renegotiating Rouge Scope with ACPA.

While I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and say, "ah well, not much we can do" I am willing to give this new executive team some time to get us out of this mess. Under the previous management, I felt like we were heading full speed ahead direct into an ice berg, now I feel we're slowly turning in the right direction.
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:37 pm

I just flew with a mgmt pilot last week ferrying a 737 from Kelowna with the new seat layout back to Calgary...he said they are going to 20 planes pretty quick. He was also of the opinion that the Swoop LOU would need to be re-evaluated in order to fill all the positions. We will have to wait and see I guess...
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by flyinhigh » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:07 am

I can see that happening, however this management will want crappy conditions and I think they are to stupid to realize nothing will pass in an LOU unless it is the current WAWCON within WestJet.
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:37 pm
I just flew with a mgmt pilot last week ferrying a 737 from Kelowna with the new seat layout back to Calgary...he said they are going to 20 planes pretty quick. He was also of the opinion that the Swoop LOU would need to be re-evaluated in order to fill all the positions. We will have to wait and see I guess...
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Re: SWOOP - A New Hires Future

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:49 am

I think swoop will probably disappear in 5 years. Management will find too few pilots willing to work for swoop conditions, and too few passengers willing to travel under the nickel and dime ULCC scheme.

If I had the option of swoop for $150, plus a $50 bag, $20 carry on, $5 to pee, horrid connection time versus the normal WJ adventure for $250 I know what I'd do. Definitely worth the extra $25.
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