lostaviator wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 7:20 pm
Why should loyal employees be subject to anything other then seniority/yos? Your experience (hours) mean nothing to me, but your experience (jumping around) sure says a lot.
The company has never said “the only way into WestJet is through encore”. WestJet has had job postings every year since the founding of Encore.
We all plot our own path through this industry, and we all get into it knowing how it works.
Not too sure what your point is here. I agree with your first paragraph but you lost me after that. I personally know half a dozen guys who were specifically told in their interview that there would be no more Westjet postings and that all Westjet Pilots would come from encore only to find out that they had been misled by Hr.
We all plot our own path through this industry, but everyone makes the best choice for themselves at the time with the information they are given. Every pilot I know worked hard to get where they are regardless of how many times they have been knocked down by this industry whether they are a 1000hr instructor or a 10000 hr seasoned bush pilot! Some people have families to think about, others are just chasing metal! That doesn’t make it ok for the rules to be changed half way through the game.
If you are trying to justify screwing over some encore pilots just to gain some seniority then I doubt you are willing to consider our frustrations with an open mind and it comes across as pretty selfish.
I have 8000hrs between two companies in 14 years... say what you want about my experience, but my loyalty should count for something!
I'm actually one of the yes votes. I'm not in a position to worry too much about layoffs and pilot unity is worth more to me then whatever bargaining chips the no votes thought this was vote was worth.
Never listen to HR. HR is a new fad in our politically correct world and are only there to check-off some boxes during your interview. Most of them are just at WJ out of school and looking to build a resume (and get some free flights while they're at it). The real information comes from our peers and general knowledge of the industry. We all know Encore has 60% flow (50% until recently), and that WJ has continued to post for external pilots since 2014. Outside hiring has continued, and will continue.
Except that flow language was in the LOA. Which is now toast. So all there is now is a ‘commitment’ from the company to maintain it, but nothing official anymore.
It’s more than shameful Encore became a bargaining chip for a lot of disgruntled mainline pilots, or those who couldn’t even be bothered to do any reading themselves. Even if going forward its decided the List is no longer desired, at the very least the right thing to do is keep DOH for everyone on the property now who was hired and promised the one list. Including those who have already flowed and been left high and dry as well.
lostaviator wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 5:51 am
The real information comes from our peers and general knowledge of the industry. We all know Encore has 60% flow (50% until recently), and that WJ has continued to post for external pilots since 2014. Outside hiring has continued, and will continue.
Management has informed us that, for the foreseeable future at least, all hiring at WestJet will be Encore flow, as a way of ameliorating us until the One List issue is resolved. If they make a written commitment to maintaining that, it would do a lot to reduce the impact on us, and ideally it would be continued even if the One List is reinstated. The company is now putting forward acts of good faith, whereas we don't know whether we can rely on WestJet pilots going forward. Management also negotiated with us equitably, and came to a fair agreement under the assumption that the One List would continue; I'm sad to say that I'm much more inclined to trust them than the pilot group as a result of the events of the last month.
lostaviator wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 5:51 am
The real information comes from our peers and general knowledge of the industry. We all know Encore has 60% flow (50% until recently), and that WJ has continued to post for external pilots since 2014. Outside hiring has continued, and will continue.
Management has informed us that, for the foreseeable future at least, all hiring at WestJet will be Encore flow, as a way of ameliorating us until the One List issue is resolved. If they make a written commitment to maintaining that, it would do a lot to reduce the impact on us, and ideally it would be continued even if the One List is reinstated. The company is now putting forward acts of good faith, whereas we don't know whether we can rely on WestJet pilots going forward. Management also negotiated with us equitably, and came to a fair agreement under the assumption that the One List would continue; I'm sad to say that I'm much more inclined to trust them than the pilot group as a result of the events of the last month.
I understand emotions are high, but everyone needs to keep their emotions in check. I would say that support for the one-list has decreased even more since the vote after pilots at WJ have read/seen things Encore pilots are saying and doing.
The day of the vote, the WJ MEC was already being pressured back to work to make things right. Maybe things will change, maybe they won't. But if there is any hope of getting a better result next time, you all need to chill with the emotional temper tantrum - it isn't helping.
As I mentioned, I was a yes vote. But all I have been reading is how this affects Encore. Whether you see it or not, there were items in the LOA that concerned WJ pilots and they wanted it changed. If you want to be "one" team, and "one" list, then you have to realize this isn't all about you. There are no votes out there, each with a reason, that need to be addressed.
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Last edited by lostaviator on Sat May 18, 2019 7:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
lostaviator wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 5:51 am
The real information comes from our peers and general knowledge of the industry. We all know Encore has 60% flow (50% until recently), and that WJ has continued to post for external pilots since 2014. Outside hiring has continued, and will continue.
Management has informed us that, for the foreseeable future at least, all hiring at WestJet will be Encore flow, as a way of ameliorating us until the One List issue is resolved. If they make a written commitment to maintaining that, it would do a lot to reduce the impact on us, and ideally it would be continued even if the One List is reinstated. The company is now putting forward acts of good faith, whereas we don't know whether we can rely on WestJet pilots going forward. Management also negotiated with us equitably, and came to a fair agreement under the assumption that the One List would continue; I'm sad to say that I'm much more inclined to trust them than the pilot group as a result of the events of the last month.
I understand emotions are high, but everyone needs to keep their emotions in check. I would say that support for the one-list has decreased even more since the vote after pilots at WJ have read/seen things Encore pilots are saying and doing.
The day of the vote, the WJ MEC was already being pressured back to work to make things right. Maybe things will change, maybe they won't. But if there is any hope of getting a better result next time, you all need to chill with the emotional temper tantrum - it isn't helping.
I fail to see how anything I wrote could be construed as an "emotional temper tantrum"...
Stratopaused wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 7:23 am
Management has informed us that, for the foreseeable future at least, all hiring at WestJet will be Encore flow, as a way of ameliorating us until the One List issue is resolved. If they make a written commitment to maintaining that, it would do a lot to reduce the impact on us, and ideally it would be continued even if the One List is reinstated. The company is now putting forward acts of good faith, whereas we don't know whether we can rely on WestJet pilots going forward. Management also negotiated with us equitably, and came to a fair agreement under the assumption that the One List would continue; I'm sad to say that I'm much more inclined to trust them than the pilot group as a result of the events of the last month.
I understand emotions are high, but everyone needs to keep their emotions in check. I would say that support for the one-list has decreased even more since the vote after pilots at WJ have read/seen things Encore pilots are saying and doing.
The day of the vote, the WJ MEC was already being pressured back to work to make things right. Maybe things will change, maybe they won't. But if there is any hope of getting a better result next time, you all need to chill with the emotional temper tantrum - it isn't helping.
I fail to see how anything I wrote could be construed as an "emotional temper tantrum"...
Case in point. This isn't about you; it's about the collective group. Go check out yammer.
I understand emotions are high, but everyone needs to keep their emotions in check. I would say that support for the one-list has decreased even more since the vote after pilots at WJ have read/seen things Encore pilots are saying and doing.
The day of the vote, the WJ MEC was already being pressured back to work to make things right. Maybe things will change, maybe they won't. But if there is any hope of getting a better result next time, you all need to chill with the emotional temper tantrum - it isn't helping.
I fail to see how anything I wrote could be construed as an "emotional temper tantrum"...
Case in point. This isn't about you; it's about the collective group. Go check out yammer.
I think it's reasonable to assume you were referring to me specifically when you quoted my post.
There's a rumour going around Encore that I think is relevant to the continuation, or not, of the One List, so I thought it pertinent to share it here. Everything that follows is rumour, speculation, and hearsay, and I don't claim to speak for management, so take from it what you will.
For the last few years, management has been hinting that they're looking at getting RJs for Encore, probably just a little wink wink, nudge nudge to titillate us, but it would be absurd to think that they aren't considering all possible options for the fleet's future. Rumour has it that the disruption to the One List has them scrambling to find ways to ameliorate Encore's pilots, and one way they could do it is to bring jets on board much sooner than they had originally considered; the purchase by Onex also apparently factors into this, as their deep pockets would allow an order to be placed quickly without having to find financing. The idea, in regards to the pilots, is that some will be happy to be flying fancy jets, and thus less likely to quit right away because they'll be so much cooler, while many will see value in sticking around long enough to rack up some jet time. In the company's estimation, so it goes, getting Encore pilots 500 hours of jet time will allow them to go to Swoop as DECs, helping to alleviate any pay disparities with giving up an Encore captain position, and they can then start accruing seniority at WestJet sooner than waiting for flow. The company also sees a plus in this, as they would be able to staff Swoop more easily. A few more pilots might also apply here if there's a chance of flying a jet, and it might help to keep the applications from drying up as quickly.
The reason I think this is relevant to the One List discussion is that adding RJs to Encore is going to have a substantial impact on growth at WestJet. The 737-600s are getting long in the tooth, and there's no MAX replacement for them, so either WestJet will be replacing them with a new type or eliminating them altogether; the loss of thirteen aircraft will be made up for by the incoming MAXs of other models, but it would still slow growth substantially, especially if some of the other NGs are retired. With the current pay scales and cost structures of WestJet and Encore, the latter could operate two RJs for less than the cost of one -600, and if they were replaced 2:1 it would actually result in an increase in capacity. That is to say, if WestJet puts RJs at Encore, they can increase frequencies and capacity while reducing costs. RJs obviously don't have anywhere near the same range as the -600, but with more MAXs being delivered that won't matter much. On the contrary, the -600s seem to do shorter, thinner routes that would probably be better served by an RJ every three hours instead of a 737 every six, like YYC-YQQ. RJs would also allow for the opening of new routes around the US that are beyond the range of the Q400, but might not support 737 service right away.
Here's the important thing: if the One List remains in place, we at Encore won't want this. Every aircraft that's added to mainline increases flow, and every jet that ends up at Encore instead will slow our movement down. We would much rather WestJet picked up something like an A220, or even had RJs placed at mainline, because we would much rather fly those aircraft on your pay scale than ours. If the growth in WestJet's network comes through Encore gaining RJs, rather than WestJet getting a new small jet, that will restrict movement for everyone; upgrades would be solely dependant on retirements if there's no growth. That's not good for anyone. I don't think the company will want to re-open the scope clause to make it even more restrictive, but perhaps as part of the agreement for the One List to be reinstated the Encore MEC could make a commitment to oppose the addition of jets at Encore, dependant on the outcome of a future vote. In support of WestJet pilots, we would be acting in solidarity in retaining jet operations at mainline.
The sentiment that I've heard over the last few days from a lot of Encore pilots is that, if the One List is dead, they would prefer to become more like Jazz and have a company where pilots could actually remain for their careers if they want to. For many of us, pay isn't nearly as important as lifestyle, and we'd rather stay at Encore or quit than spend four or five years commuting to YYZ to sit on res; up to now, time at Encore has counted against that wait, but for most of us that's just not something we're willing to do without the One List. As a result, there is a much greater feeling that, should the current state of affairs become permanent, we would be quite enthusiastic about accepting RJs into the operation. Some might be pleased enough with that, and the hope of gains in future contracts, to remain here permanently, while others will be happy to get their jet time and go to Swoop, Enerjet, overseas as DECs, etc. Again, that's a fall-back, as we would still make substantially more over our careers if we flowed than if we remained at Encore, and so our preference is for the One List to be reinstated and jets to stay at WestJet.
Food for thought...
lostaviator wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2019 5:51 am
The real information comes from our peers and general knowledge of the industry. We all know Encore has 60% flow (50% until recently), and that WJ has continued to post for external pilots since 2014. Outside hiring has continued, and will continue.
Management has informed us that, for the foreseeable future at least, all hiring at WestJet will be Encore flow, as a way of ameliorating us until the One List issue is resolved. If they make a written commitment to maintaining that, it would do a lot to reduce the impact on us, and ideally it would be continued even if the One List is reinstated. The company is now putting forward acts of good faith, whereas we don't know whether we can rely on WestJet pilots going forward. Management also negotiated with us equitably, and came to a fair agreement under the assumption that the One List would continue; I'm sad to say that I'm much more inclined to trust them than the pilot group as a result of the events of the last month.
I understand your and WENs anger. I would be upset too.
But to state that 2 weeks of good faith from management after 3+ years of negativity has solidified your loyalties is either extremely naiive or extremely uninformed. Management cares about money/ costs / savings. You are not their consideration.
This posts is not directed at any one individual or group!
We all need to take a collective breath and refocus our energy from forum posts. Please contact your respective leaders/MEC’s or pilot assistance members. The one constant with our rapid growth has been change, and as such many hiccups along the way. The Onex announcement on Monday coinciding with the Tuesday vote close certainly created angst among colleagues at WS/WEN. Irregardless solutions to this new hiccup will be found that all parties will be able to work with. I am just a line pilot but can attest to distractions taking place in the flight-deck due to issues that remain out of the control of your very hands. The hands that control the safety of the flight. I have been distracted enough times to see small errors add up and only with reflection have contributed it to my own stubborn hard headed quests for social justice.
The best and worst part of democracy, is democracy. You will always have individuals or groups that have differing opinions and requirements of a vote. Emotions are running high, democracy must follow the will of the majority going forward. Please don’t let distractions in the flight deck become big errors. We are all professional pilots who have been given the greatest responsibility by the travelling public - their trust! If you are unable to focus on the task at hand then responsible decision is to remove yourself in the interest of safety.
Fly safe everyone, we say goodbye this week to a fellow pilot who has found blue skies and tailwinds far too early
Recent events are but a glimpse of the vision of transforming WestJet into a global carrier. The Onex deal is the vehicle by which that vision becomes a reality. As unsettling as the day to day events may feel, with little vision and patience one can see a bright future for the group. There will likely be growth in many areas of the business that cannot be readily perceived at the moment. New opportunities will surely emerge.
DropTanks wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 6:31 am
Here’s the thing about that long post above. The company can put RJ’s at Encore tomorrow. It’s entirely their right as stated in our scope clause. It’s also not up to Encore Pilots to “accept” the aircraft. It would simply happen and you would have to fly them. Just that simple so insinuating that the One List has any bearing on the addition of RJ’s at Encore borders on absurd. If the company wants to place RJ’s out there then so be it, we have no say in fleet deployment. By the way, not sure if you’ve been paying attention but the 600’s are getting refreshed cabins to match the rest of the fleet. They’re not leaving the fleet any time soon....because nobody wants them.
That's entirely true, and conversely it's not like if we don't get the One List back we'll throw a tantrum and go buy RJs ourselves; it's completely out of our hands. That said, if both employee groups are pushing in the same direction, it might give management pause as to whether they're following the right course of action. If even the pilots who would be getting the jets are opposed, they might think twice. I don't think they'd want to put in a big order for RJs, and then have no pilots bid onto them.
The point I'm trying to make is that all of our interests align on a lot of subjects, and acting in solidarity will benefit us all in the long run. A commitment to push management to keep jet operations at WestJet, even if it it's not realistic that it'll happen any time soon and the statement doesn't have any real teeth, would be a show of good faith by the Encore MEC to support WestJet pilots. Or if not that, then something else that's important to WestJet pilots. There are a lot of AC pilots who are still bitter that Jazz took their jets, not to mention that the E175s got moved to SkyRegional, and I don't think it would benefit anyone to widen the divide between the two pilot groups here. With the Onex purchase, something completely unforeseen could arise that negatively impacts WestJet pilots, and you might find that you'd like our support when that happens.
Solidarity is important, and solidarity needs to happen both ways.
.80@410 wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 10:11 am
I understand your and WENs anger. I would be upset too.
But to state that 2 weeks of good faith from management after 3+ years of negativity has solidified your loyalties is either extremely naiive or extremely uninformed. Management cares about money/ costs / savings. You are not their consideration.
And .
WJ pilots want this fixed too .
If I had a boss who was a real jerk to me, but for the last few months he started to treat me with respect and give me some of the things I've been asking for, I would start to trust him more. If my spouse then cheated on me and completely destroyed the trust that we had in our relationship, I might trust my boss more than her. If my boss then offered me conciliation as a way of trying to keep me happy in the wake of that betrayal, despite not being responsible for it in any way, I might start to think he's actually looking out for me a little bit.
Years of trust can be thrown away in a single act.
DropTanks wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 6:31 am
Here’s the thing about that long post above. The company can put RJ’s at Encore tomorrow. It’s entirely their right as stated in our scope clause. It’s also not up to Encore Pilots to “accept” the aircraft. It would simply happen and you would have to fly them. Just that simple so insinuating that the One List has any bearing on the addition of RJ’s at Encore borders on absurd. If the company wants to place RJ’s out there then so be it, we have no say in fleet deployment. By the way, not sure if you’ve been paying attention but the 600’s are getting refreshed cabins to match the rest of the fleet. They’re not leaving the fleet any time soon....because nobody wants them.
That's entirely true, and conversely it's not like if we don't get the One List back we'll throw a tantrum and go buy RJs ourselves; it's completely out of our hands. That said, if both employee groups are pushing in the same direction, it might give management pause as to whether they're following the right course of action. If even the pilots who would be getting the jets are opposed, they might think twice. I don't think they'd want to put in a big order for RJs, and then have no pilots bid onto them.
The point I'm trying to make is that all of our interests align on a lot of subjects, and acting in solidarity will benefit us all in the long run. A commitment to push management to keep jet operations at WestJet, even if it it's not realistic that it'll happen any time soon and the statement doesn't have any real teeth, would be a show of good faith by the Encore MEC to support WestJet pilots. Or if not that, then something else that's important to WestJet pilots. There are a lot of AC pilots who are still bitter that Jazz took their jets, not to mention that the E175s got moved to SkyRegional, and I don't think it would benefit anyone to widen the divide between the two pilot groups here. With the Onex purchase, something completely unforeseen could arise that negatively impacts WestJet pilots, and you might find that you'd like our support when that happens.
Solidarity is important, and solidarity needs to happen both ways.
While your post describes an ideal situation, I don’t believe it can come to fruition. If they were to put RJ’s at WEN, encore pilots can “not bid them” as an act of solidarity. However, it’s not like when Encore pilots didn’t bid Swoop as an act of solidarity (probably also cause they didn’t want to work their bags off). RJ’s at WEN aren’t the same situation as bidding over to Swoop. It’s a position at the same company nobody would want. Therefor Captain positions will be forced and FO spots if not bid for will be given to all new hires or forced to junior FO’s. This could also create a ripple effect of junior Q captains or Senior FO’s sell their soul to get Jet Pic cause if it’s not them someone will be forced to anyways.
doiwannabeapilot wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm
So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
Uh, no.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
doiwannabeapilot wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2019 3:14 pm
So.......Old commercial pilot was right after all ???
Uh, no.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
The man with many AvCanada names felt that there was an ALPA constitutional issue that would mean the one list would never work. That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather the previous LOA was voted down by the mainline pilots.
my mistake then. I could've swore months ago, maybe mid 2018, there was discussion about the one list; and an outlier said it was going to disappear. To which, the majority said the one list will NEVER die.
The man with many AvCanada names felt that there was an ALPA constitutional issue that would mean the one list would never work. That doesn't seem to be the case, but rather the previous LOA was voted down by the mainline pilots.
DFR aside; in the current environment of quite possibly more mergers and acquisitions, a purchase of a "regional" carrier for instance makes merging the said carrier with the "regional airline" of WestJet wiser and more practical. This was one of the main reasons for creating it separate.
With China and other Far East operations looming, there will be substantial opportunities emerging for growth affecting all levels. Keeping a broader perspective will keep the focus on what is coming ahead.
