New WestJet FO

[Hangry]

you'll be sent to an "re-educaton" camp.
"Groom"!
"WestJet is the best".
"Lower the bar to compete!"

Say that over and over again forever. That'll make you a good WJ employee.

[JoeyBarton]

So Encore is not on the same list as wj-swoop?
So there is no guarantee transat will be on the same list as ac, although they will enjoy a common employer just like Encore.

[hifliers]

Kag is correct, but there is more to a Captain upgrade at WJ than what he alludes to.

It starts with an interview -- management has talked to the last few Captains you have flown with -- where they discuss your training record, attitude, expectations of what they want from you as a line Captain and so on. About an hour long. You do a written test of 100 questions where 75 are open book, and 25 closed. The closed questions deal with limitations on the airplane, which one should know as they would have been flying the airplane for 9 years. The open book ones deal with anything WJ related, from explaining the ground delay protocol as it pertains to JFK, to naming the instances where you should make an intermediary landing at a suitable airport. You need 85% to pass.

Then you and your sim partner, another F/O who is also upgrading, do 2 sim sessions. Day 1 you sit in the left seat, with your partner as the best F/O you will ever have, and on day 2 the roles are reversed where you are the best F/O your partner will ever have. If you are successful you are recommended for the ride, and day 3 you sit in the left seat with a line F/O who has been here for at least 3 years. It is a day of training, and day 4 is a Transport Canada check ride.

If successful, you then get 2-4 day pairings, with 2 different line instructors, with you wearing your 3 stripes sitting in the left seat on revenue flights. You are acting Captain. If successful, there is a one day line release flight, and if you are successful, you are given your 4th stripe. You will have weather limits that are higher than everyone else, your flight plans will have IC behind your name (initial captain, or incompetent, take your pick). That helps Crew Sched in not pairing you with and IFO, initial first officer. After 300 hours your weather limitations are removed, and you can do all flying, except ETOPS, which is another 1 day ground course, revenue flight training, and a line check. after 6 months you are back in the sim and again you do a Transport Canada check ride, and if successful, the training department finally lets you go and you will be a regular line guy, commuting to Toronto. You then alternate between check rides and lofts, and you can get paired up with anyone including IFOs.

That's it in a nutshell. Not everyone is successful. It is a lot of work, but hey, it's your career.

[yaba]

Kag is correct, but there is more to a Captain upgrade at WJ than what he alludes to.

It starts with an interview -- management has talked to the last few Captains you have flown with -- where they discuss your training record, attitude, expectations of what they want from you as a line Captain and so on. About an hour long. You do a written test of 100 questions where 75 are open book, and 25 closed. The closed questions deal with limitations on the airplane, which one should know as they would have been flying the airplane for 9 years. The open book ones deal with anything WJ related, from explaining the ground delay protocol as it pertains to JFK, to naming the instances where you should make an intermediary landing at a suitable airport. You need 85% to pass

So at this stage if something didn't go well for an FO wanting to upgrade how does the company handle it. Will they try to rehabilitate and attitude problem, if a guy missed a couple of the questions do they offer some assistance ( granted that at this stage they shouldnt really be too challenged)

Do many guys have problems at this stage?

[yaba]

Kag is correct, but there is more to a Captain upgrade at WJ than what he alludes to.

It starts with an interview -- management has talked to the last few Captains you have flown with -- where they discuss your training record, attitude, expectations of what they want from you as a line Captain and so on. About an hour long. You do a written test of 100 questions where 75 are open book, and 25 closed. The closed questions deal with limitations on the airplane, which one should know as they would have been flying the airplane for 9 years. The open book ones deal with anything WJ related, from explaining the ground delay protocol as it pertains to JFK, to naming the instances where you should make an intermediary landing at a suitable airport. You need 85% to pass.

Then you and your sim partner, another F/O who is also upgrading, do 2 sim sessions. Day 1 you sit in the left seat, with your partner as the best F/O you will ever have, and on day 2 the roles are reversed where you are the best F/O your partner will ever have. If you are successful you are recommended for the ride, and day 3 you sit in the left seat with a line F/O who has been here for at least 3 years. It is a day of training, and day 4 is a Transport Canada check ride.


If successful, you then get 2-4 day pairings, with 2 different line instructors, with you wearing your 3 stripes sitting in the left seat on revenue flights. You are acting Captain. If successful, there is a one day line release flight, and if you are successful, you are given your 4th stripe. You will have weather limits that are higher than everyone else, your flight plans will have IC behind your name (initial captain, or incompetent, take your pick). That helps Crew Sched in not pairing you with and IFO, initial first officer. After 300 hours your weather limitations are removed, and you can do all flying, except ETOPS, which is another 1 day ground course, revenue flight training, and a line check. after 6 months you are back in the sim and again you do a Transport Canada check ride, and if successful, the training department finally lets you go and you will be a regular line guy, commuting to Toronto. You then alternate between check rides and lofts, and you can get paired up with anyone including IFOs.

That's it in a nutshell. Not everyone is successful. It is a lot of work, but hey, it's your career.

So if an FO wasn’t successful at the initial stage of this do they offer any assistance or support, or is that it your not upgrading?

Do many people have problems during the upgrade process

[Hangry]

Yes. Lots of answers. Except to the questions you were asking.

[cloak]

WestJet has been telling us they've been poised for significant growth for the last 2-3 years. ...

WestJet had stated publicly few years ago that it intended to become one of the top airlines in the world. If memory serves, I believe they said top 10. As an independent observer, it should not hard NOW (with the turn of events with ONEX and J.V) to perceive that significant growth was not far-fetched, in fact quite possible, rather inevitable.

At the same time, if one, again as an independent observer, was to juxtapose that aspiration with labour relations and reactions, it becomes clear that one element of that equation was missing. Notwithstanding allocating faults, which at this point serves no purpose, it becomes evident why "significant" growth as intended, planned or aspired, has not come to pass YET. Added obstacle, has been the MAX situation that has taken everyone by surprise.

On a positive note however, it can be hoped, rather envisioned, that with the resolution of the MAX troubles, approval of the J.V and finalization of ONEX deal, not to mention improving labour relations, "significant" growth can come rather quickly. You may have to seek a new handle then!!

[Blue42]

650 pilots coming to AC with 20 wide bodies and however many narrow bodies.

28 or so max on the way. 50 220’s.

The myth of the stagnation is way over rated (at least to a NB left seat). But keep telling yourself that.

Expansion looks great when you only list the new aircraft arriving at AC, and not the aircraft leaving the fleet, B763, A320s, A319s....and don’t forget the new Jazz CPA with around 60% flowing to mainline.

[kiaszceski]

So why would someone join Westjet if there is a 9 year wait to hold a left seat?

With Onex new plan and assuming they are expanding widebodies why would people go to AC after joining Westjet ?

Is there so much of a difference between AC collective agreement and WJ one ?

[Mrbobmarly111]

I dont want to be a dick. But AC is 100% better. Westjet collective agreement sucks. AC is the place to be. I'm not saying someone can't havr a career at westjet. But dont kid yourself its way way better in all ways at AC. And if you need convincing just ask the 100+ westjet pilots to go to AC this year alone.

[kiaszceski]

Any numbers ? Better wages at AC ? Better benefits ? By how much ?
Considering only NB and no WB.

[Hangry]

In the short term you’d have a much better lifestyle at WJ.

If you’re in it for the long game WJ can’t touch AC with progression, earnings, and lifestyle.

[kiaszceski]

So when would this short term / long term thing shift ?
Considering a 30-year career, after year 5 Captain ?

[kilocharliemike]

Hello,

Where does initial sim training take place? If for whatever reason it is not YYC? Someone said sim locations may vary...

Cheers

[KAG]

Ok someone asked about having trouble with upgrade: we do have a process, alpa did add some clarity to the whole thing for those having issues. Attitude wise they call your skippers yohvd flown with to see how you perform, and obviously if you have a big file if reprimands thats not going go well for you. You get 3 chances at the left seat. But honestly after 7 years in the right seat doing rides and lofts its pretty straight forward. If you dont prepare yourself before stepping into the sim you dont deserve it. That said it's easy to pouch a ride, it happens, you'll get 2 more chances.

Career wise, AC is better in virtually every way. Schedule wise for a junior hire at WJ is pretty damn good, Rouge would be similar in that regard.get stuck on reserve at AC and life sucks. You will make more money at AC, pension (haven't seen ours so cant compare yet), better benifets and they're provided for, ours are expensive and sub par.
The people I work with are awesome, even with the last few years of growing pains it's still a good gig.
Onex is truly a game changer. Ask me in a year how things are going. Were cautiously optimistic.

[cloak]

I would posit that after so many years of rapid expansion at Air Canada the balance is likely to tip in WestJet's favour soon of it hasn't already. The main reason being the schedule and time off. Also 4 years of low probationary pay is a big negative for Air Canada.
Although upgrades take longer at WestJet now, that will likely change soon with Onex deal and joint venture, I would also add that with the backlog of quality FOs, there will be great pool to draw future captains from with little challenge. This is another good news for Onex.
Having said all that, one should work towards landing a job somewhere that makes them most happy. Life is too short and too precious to be spent working somewhere unhappy.

[Mrbobmarly111]

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