One List

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flyinhigh
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Re: One List

Post by flyinhigh »

George Taylor wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:33 pm
Let's not forget the Encore pilots voted in their CBA without have the one list fiasco sorted out first. You talk about siblings and family with regards to your employment, if that's the case you should be mad at mom and dad.
Ok, without just saying you can do it.

Tell me how LEGALLY a bargaining unit of one company can make a separate company (Westjet and Swoop) negotiate (and in good faith) to acquire something?

Remember, I'm asking LEGAL terms, and NOT it is all westjet same company bullshit.
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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

flyinhigh wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:52 am
George Taylor wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:33 pm
Let's not forget the Encore pilots voted in their CBA without have the one list fiasco sorted out first. You talk about siblings and family with regards to your employment, if that's the case you should be mad at mom and dad.
Ok, without just saying you can do it.

Tell me how LEGALLY a bargaining unit of one company can make a separate company (Westjet and Swoop) negotiate (and in good faith) to acquire something?

Remember, I'm asking LEGAL terms, and NOT it is all westjet same company bullshit.
Hey Flyinhigh, you're exactly right. It was the company that concocted the fairy tale we know as the one list. They had the option tp set things up so LEGALLY it could have happened. We could have been "one big family", but as you pointed out, we have two separate bargaining units, and we're all stuck in the quagmire now. I guess my point is all the misguided anger from Encore pilots towards mainline. It was all built on a house of cards and doomed from the start.
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flyinhigh
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Re: One List

Post by flyinhigh »

George Taylor wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:11 am
Hey Flyinhigh, you're exactly right. It was the company that concocted the fairy tale we know as the one list. They had the option tp set things up so LEGALLY it could have happened. We could have been "one big family", but as you pointed out, we have two separate bargaining units, and we're all stuck in the quagmire now. I guess my point is all the misguided anger from Encore pilots towards mainline. It was all built on a house of cards and doomed from the start.
Correct, in the past it could have been legally done. The reason for my post was in regards to the Encore pilots voting in favour of the TA without the one list enshrined.
by George Taylor » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:33 pm

Let's not forget the Encore pilots voted in their CBA without have the one list fiasco sorted out first. You talk about siblings and family with regards to your employment, if that's the case you should be mad at mom and dad.
In current world, what could LEGALLY be done to capture the one list during a negotiation?

Fact of the matter is, regardless of what happened in negotiations the One List failed due to the family(i.e, brothers and sisters) saying screw that shit we don't want it because we don't like the wording.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Speaking pragmatically and without emotion, the one list came about, after the inception of Encore, to entice talent that could have been at Westjet into joining Encore and getting off the ground, without the perception of losing time at WestJet. That was an informal agreement. Under the current representation, it no longer is possible.

Formally and legally, all ALPA represented airlines have their flows from regionals into mainline at the bottom of the list. This is based on ALPA constitution. While some may not like it, this is already priced into the new Encore contract with the salary top-up. Anyone that has been in the industry and gone through bankruptcies or even job changes, knows how the market works. It's not always to one's liking, but the market knows best because for instance the level of experience that is being attracted to Encore now is different from the early days and this is reflected in the agreement. And with the current market consolidation that is taking place having Encore as a separate entity is probably a good idea.
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Hudson89
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson89 »

cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:07 pm
Speaking pragmatically and without emotion, the one list came about, after the inception of Encore, to entice talent that could have been at Westjet into joining Encore and getting off the ground, without the perception of losing time at WestJet. That was an informal agreement. Under the current representation, it no longer is possible.

Formally and legally, all ALPA represented airlines have their flows from regionals into mainline at the bottom of the list. This is based on ALPA constitution. While some may not like it, this is already priced into the new Encore contract with the salary top-up. Anyone that has been in the industry and gone through bankruptcies or even job changes, knows how the market works. It's not always to one's liking, but the market knows best because for instance the level of experience that is being attracted to Encore now is different from the early days and this is reflected in the agreement. And with the current market consolidation that is taking place having Encore as a separate entity is probably a good idea.

Bang on Cloak!
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:07 pm
Speaking pragmatically and without emotion, the one list came about, after the inception of Encore, to entice talent that could have been at Westjet into joining Encore and getting off the ground, without the perception of losing time at WestJet. That was an informal agreement. Under the current representation, it no longer is possible.

Formally and legally, all ALPA represented airlines have their flows from regionals into mainline at the bottom of the list. This is based on ALPA constitution. While some may not like it, this is already priced into the new Encore contract with the salary top-up. Anyone that has been in the industry and gone through bankruptcies or even job changes, knows how the market works. It's not always to one's liking, but the market knows best because for instance the level of experience that is being attracted to Encore now is different from the early days and this is reflected in the agreement. And with the current market consolidation that is taking place having Encore as a separate entity is probably a good idea.
Hi cloak,

Pragmatically and without emotion, I must point out the errors in your post.

1- "That was an informal agreement" - this is incorrect. For all Encore pilots hired prior to certification and, arguably, May 14th, 2019, flow with seniority to WestJet was a term of the contract of employment. Prior to certification, if WestJet had unilaterally withdrawn that term each Encore pilot would have had a legal remedy. While there are different legal ramifications of a certified and non-certified employee group with respect to breaches of the employment contract, suggesting that it was an informal agreement is legally false.


2- The ALPA Constitution Argument against seniority transfer also does not hold merit. The ONLY mention of seniority in the entire 98 pages of the Constitution is in the "Objectives" section which indicates that one (1) of the sixteen (16) Objectives of ALPA is to:

(6)To establish fair rates of compensation, maximum hours of employment, and uniform principles of seniority for members of the Association, and to seek the adoption and perpetuation thereof.

I've written on here in previous posts about how "uniform principles of seniority" is not even remotely the same as saying all "airlines have their flows from regionals into mainline at the bottom of the list". The ALPA constitution does not say that. period.


3- Next, with respect to the salary top up, you assertions that it was priced in to the contract with respect to seniority or flow are also false. I'm afraid on a public forum I cannot comment more.


4- With regard to your last points about different experience levels and what the market would provide, I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, your conclusion is based on significant false premises to get there.

So again, pragmatically and without emotion, you need to get your facts and legal foundations correct before reaching any conclusions about what the ALPA constitution provides, what constitutes a legally binding contract and what exactly was "priced into" a negotiated contract.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Not to get too technical, so briefly to an informed observer it seems:
-"Informal" agreement as one not enshrined in a CBA. A good-will gesture, and all good things must come to an end.
-It was not a real "one list" since that would imply a two way flow; rather a "one way flow", something very rare in the market. And usually when things are done a certain way by everyone else, it is for good reasons.
-Likely it was meant to be flow at the first opportunity as opposed to a career growth tool as in delaying to avoid the right seat altogether?
-All ALPA-represented carriers do have flow from their regionals to the bottom of their lists and seniority is governed by date of hire into that bargaining unit. Clearly WestJet and Encore are separate bargaining units. In fact it could be argued that the "one way flow" list came to an end with certification and not so much with a later vote.
-Under the current climate of consolidation forces, it would unlikely that there is much appetite from the corporation for a formal merger of the two companies. It could be argued that possibly having two separate companies is of some appeal for new owners.
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:53 pm
Not to get too technical, so briefly to an informed observer it seems:
-"Informal" agreement as one not enshrined in a CBA. A good-will gesture, and all good things must come to an end.
-It was not a real "one list" since that would imply a two way flow; rather a "one way flow", something very rare in the market. And usually when things are done a certain way by everyone else, it is for good reasons.
-Likely it was meant to be flow at the first opportunity as opposed to a career growth tool as in delaying to avoid the right seat altogether?
-All ALPA-represented carriers do have flow from their regionals to the bottom of their lists and seniority is governed by date of hire into that bargaining unit. Clearly WestJet and Encore are separate bargaining units. In fact it could be argued that the "one way flow" list came to an end with certification and not so much with a later vote.
-Under the current climate of consolidation forces, it would unlikely that there is much appetite from the corporation for a formal merger of the two companies. It could be argued that possibly having two separate companies is of some appeal for new owners.
Hi cloak,

Thanks for the follow-up. I'll try and clarify a few of your observations:

-There was nothing "informal" about the previous status of the one list. Prior to certification by mainline pilots, as mentioned above, the One List was part of the previous WJPA contract with both Encore and Mainline pilots via an LOU type agreement. When the groups certified, while it was messy and things were in a state of flux, the employment conditions remained the same until there was a new CBA. Therefore, formally, the One List was part of the terms of employment for Encore and Mainline pilots. Indeed, the Kaplan Arbitration award acknowledge the formality of the One List by awarding seniority for all Encore pilots that had flowed since certification up to the date of his award.

-The previous One List was agreed to prior to the formation of Swoop under the previous WJPA contract. It did indeed include a provision with respect to lay-offs and a mechanism for mainline pilots to transfer to Encore. I do not believe any mainline pilot utilized that provision.

I do not wish to (nor am I really at liberty to) engage in a debate about lay-off provisions of the failed LOA or what a new seniority transfer agreement may look at, but it must be stressed that the new mainline CBA contains significantly more robust scope and lay-off protections which, as I've discussed ad nauseam on here, conflicts with the rather simple flow/bumping policy that was previously listed in the 'old' One List. So yes, despite these limitations, it was a "real" one list as it did indeed have two way flow. The failed LOA also contained two-way flow and provisions for mainline pilots to move to positions at Encore.

-While I can't speculate about what purpose was 'likely' with respect to the previous one list, I can comment that the reality is that while most Encore pilots flowed to mainline, there have been a not insignificant number who have deferred flow and remained at Encore - primarily in training, management and ACP roles. Deferring flow was specifically outlined and allowed per the previous One List.

-It doesn't really matter what other ALPA carriers do. WestJet, Swoop and Encore, with flow or not, are following the spirit of the ALPA constitution based on general principles of seniority (i.e. I don't get an upgrade or position ahead of someone else because management may like me more, I get it based on seniority as agreed by unions and the company). So it's up to the Mainline, Swoop and Encore groups to come up with a solution that works for all the pilots in the WestJet Group of Companies.

-There are many interesting discussions and debates going forward on what any type of seniority transfer should look like. Since, to a certain extent, I am involved in those debates I will refrain from commenting publicly on my opinion. What I will emphasize though is that for all the Encore pilots that were on property prior to May 14, 2019 (and those that flowed from Jan 1, 2019), it was part of their contract of employment when they started at Encore that they would flow to mainline and keep their seniority. It wasn't "informal", it wasn't a "goodwill gesture", it wasn't this nice little thing that was just written on a napkin.
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Re: One List

Post by DropTanks »

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sarg
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Re: One List

Post by sarg »

JBI wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:49 am


-There are many interesting discussions and debates going forward on what any type of seniority transfer should look like. Since, to a certain extent, I am involved in those debates I will refrain from commenting publicly on my opinion. What I will emphasize though is that for all the Encore pilots that were on property prior to May 14, 2019 (and those that flowed from Jan 1, 2019), it was part of their contract of employment when they started at Encore that they would flow to mainline and keep their seniority. It wasn't "informal", it wasn't a "goodwill gesture", it wasn't this nice little thing that was just written on a napkin.
JBI,

Kaplan dealt with that in his arbitrated CBA. Those pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 retained their seniority rights, all others had that condition of employment terminated.

As we were all told once we certified our conditions of employment were "frozen until a CBA is negotiated/arbitrated" then that becomes our new conditions of employment. The WestJet CBA didn't have any provisions for seniority retention for Encore pilots, see Kaplan's arbitrated CBA. The Encore MEC didn't capture anything to cover these conditions in their CBA, and the WestJet MEC did a huge disservice to the Encore pilots by promising the new "one list" would pass a pilot vote.

I am another pilot who will not vote for anything but BOTL. Anything else will create many other messes as things evolve more and more situations will exist where seniority determine working conditions, like reserve callout.
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

sarg wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:44 pm

Kaplan dealt with that in his arbitrated CBA. Those pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 retained their seniority rights, all others had that condition of employment terminated.
Hi sarg,

That is correct and I don't disagree. I was simply outlining that the seniority transfer was a previous condition of employment and not "informal" as was alluded to in previous posts. Especially for those 550 Encore pilots that were hired with these previous conditions of employment and stood by the mainline pilots during negotiations, picketing and avoidance of Swoop, there was nothing "informal" there.

As for what you will or will not vote for, I'm more than happy to meet for coffee and chat but can't really get into it on the board. But as I've discussed with dozens of my friends at Mainline, you need to play the scenario out two or three steps. Having current Encore pilots lose their seniority will, in my opinion, have some pretty detrimental effects on mainline pilots' career advancement in the long run.
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

sarg wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:44 pm
Kaplan dealt with that in his arbitrated CBA. Those pilots that flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 retained their seniority rights, all others had that condition of employment terminated.
That's exactly right. After Jan 01, 2019 seniority will be based on date of hire at WestJet/Swoop. This is all part of the process of certification. It would be very hard for ALPA legal to allow anything else, which with no interview and sim eval, is still better than other airlines.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One List

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

I agree with Sarg. JBI one list or BOTL pilots are and will still leave for Air Canada while they are still hiring in droves and that appears to be the quickest upgrade and good career move. Everything is cyclical and down the long road I wouldn’t be surprised to see that WestJet offers the best opportunity for advancement, although definitely not right now or anytime soon. Air Canada never had one list and if you come over it was BOTL and pilots still filled the Regionals. Pilots will still come to Encore and some will leave and some will stay. My career at WestJet won’t be hindered by Encore pilots leaving Encore and WestJet not being able to flow pilots over to mainline from Encore. WestJet will just hire pilots off the street like they have for the next two courses this winter. The MEC in their emails prior to the one list vote also had idle threats but the vote still failed based on its own merits. Your threats to convince us to support the list or our careers will be affected is also without merit. If you’re angry over the current situation blame your own MEC who were involved along with the other 4 parties in coming up with the one list proposal. Don’t blame the mainline pilots and guilt them because Encore pilots supported them on the picket line. The one list proposal was not deemed worthy of being supported. That’s it. Pilots careers regularly have ups and downs, get over it and move forward.
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

Hi DC10 Driver,

I assure I'm not angry nor are my opinions threats. Just the opposite actually. I find these discussions and debates interesting and enjoyable. I don't really care about blame at this point in time. If there ever is a vote, you can vote or not vote however you choose.

I think you'll see that my posts have been primarily to correct and clarify misstatements by other posters on here with respect to the previous status of how the previous one list worked and am not interested in casting blame or not 'being over it'. Honestly, I love my job and after being off for a while, I have a pretty awesome time. But, pragmatically (like cloak's post in this thread that got me responding), my opinion is that for many mainline pilots, leaving the current situation, where Encore pilots lost their seniority, will have a negative long term effect on the mainline pilot's own career advancement (though, somewhat paradoxically, would have a positive effect on my career goals). There is no emotion in this statement. I'm happy to discuss over coffee sometime or if you do LGA layovers send me a msg.

cloak,

Not really sure what you're getting at with respect to ALPA legal. There really isn't an issue if certain procedures are followed. Plenty of options for creating some sort of agreement - ALPA legal is very much on top of the different legal options.
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Re: One List

Post by pacman007 »

Well from what I am seeing not having the one list will defiantly hurt a mainline pilots career, and here is how. Swoop just signed a deal with Sunwing, this is a trial for whats to come, Swoop seemingly wants all of Sunwings pax so they won't have to hire a European charter outfit to come to Canada for the winter. All that flying will be done by Swoop. This will give Swoop all the feed it needs to grow to 30 AC (Sunwings fleet grows to 40 ish Aircraft in the winter). With the one list not many encore pilots will flock to swoop because of the working conditions, but if the one list is gone why not go to swoop and get your name on west jets list. Swoop WILL grow to 30 tails and take hundreds of pilot jobs from mainline. Also who knows the future.....if encore gets jets and does the majority of domestic capacity in Canada you will have mainline shrink while encore grows! it will be funny to see 45 year old F/Os at mainline who have waited for 12+years for a upgrade and a 25 year old jet capt at Encore making more money!! With out the one list no mainline F/0 can go over to encore to fly their jets. I know I know no pilot has gone over but would you take a Jet Capt spot out of YYC at encore instead of being a 12 year F/O and have your upgrade in YYZ on reserve? With out the one list mainline pilots have 0 choice in there career, only wait for a upgrade for a decade and then be put on reserve for another decade!
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Re: One List

Post by DropTanks »

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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:51 pm
... WestJet will just hire pilots off the street like they have for the next two courses this winter. The MEC in their emails prior to the one list vote also had idle threats but the vote still failed based on its own merits. Your threats to convince us to support the list or our careers will be affected is also without merit. If you’re angry over the current situation blame your own MEC who were involved along with the other 4 parties in coming up with the one list proposal. Don’t blame the mainline pilots and guilt them because Encore pilots supported them on the picket line. The one list proposal was not deemed worthy of being supported. That’s it. Pilots careers regularly have ups and downs, get over it and move forward.
Good points.

To elaborate, the so called "one list" was never really a one list, rather a "one way flow list" that allowed very generous terms for Encore. It was really meant to attract the talent that was initially required to get Encore off the ground and expand so quickly. And it was a testament to the strong culture and team-spirit of WestJet pilot group that always acted responsibly even throughout the recent upheaval. It was never meant to endure the test of times and the state of affairs now in which WestJet really needs to attract experienced talent directly to bolster its ranks in addition to the flow of younger pilots it may get from Encore.

And you are right, the MEC did try to skew the vote, however contrary to those threats that it will not revisit the issue if the vote fails, it continues to occupy itself with this issue while other pressing issues concerning the take over and expansion and Swoop remain. This is where it treads some murky waters to seemingly pursue its own agenda contrary to the wishes of the membership and possibly ALPA legal? It is time to move on and perhaps establish a new realistic flow in line with industry standards. Even to the bottom of the list, if Encore can maintain the current flow without another interview and sim evaluation, it still is a very good arrangement, especially with the top-up pay. It is still far better than other carriers including Air Canada regionals, where flow is not guaranteed and entails four more long years of probationary pay, if they do ever get there!

Another factor is the probability of sale and CPA for Encore, which makes it even more important for WestJet MEC to protect its own members under the DFR, consolidate its CBA, and lay the groundwork for the next round of negotiations. There could even be an opportunity for re-opening of the CBA if Onex seeks further expansion which is quite likely. These issues are far more pressing. Attracting talent to Encore remains the responsibility of the corporation. In some ways it has already priced it into the CBA with the top-up pay. As you say, those that have been around long enough through some mergers, bankruptcies and such know all too well that there is ups and downs in this industry, and it is time to move forward. Likely there will be meaningful growth to create lots of new opportunities.
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:40 am

To elaborate, the so called "one list" was never really a one list, rather a "one way flow list" that allowed very generous terms for Encore.
Again, that is not correct. There were provisions for both mainline pilots to bid to Encore and also in the event of layoffs for protection.

You're welcome to have your opinions about what things 'should' be like moving forward and I'm not in a position where I can publicly debate with you (and in fact don't necessarily disagree with some of your opinions), but you keep getting your facts wrong about what the one list was or wasn't.

As for ALPA legal and DFR etc. I'm happy to chat with anyone who has concerns. As I've said here publicly, when I practiced law full time (for 5 years) I didn't specialize in labour law, but have spent lots of time bringing myself up to speed on things. However, the dozens of ALPA internal and external lawyers DO specialize in labour law and they know their stuff.
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Re: One List

Post by Hangry »

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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

JBI wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:07 am
As for ALPA legal and DFR etc. I'm happy to chat with anyone who has concerns. As I've said here publicly, when I practiced law full time (for 5 years) I didn't specialize in labour law, but have spent lots of time bringing myself up to speed on things. However, the dozens of ALPA internal and external lawyers DO specialize in labour law and they know their stuff.
Ok then, legally speaking, what can constitute a mandate for an MEC to engage in further discussions regarding the one list after the defeat of their previous proposal in a democratic vote? What is the legal position on such action which clearly causes harm to some of its own pilots?
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

cloak wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:50 am
JBI wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:07 am
As for ALPA legal and DFR etc. I'm happy to chat with anyone who has concerns. As I've said here publicly, when I practiced law full time (for 5 years) I didn't specialize in labour law, but have spent lots of time bringing myself up to speed on things. However, the dozens of ALPA internal and external lawyers DO specialize in labour law and they know their stuff.
Ok then, legally speaking, what can constitute a mandate for an MEC to engage in further discussions regarding the one list after the defeat of their previous proposal in a democratic vote? What is the legal position on such action which clearly causes harm to some of its own pilots?
That's something to discuss with your MEC.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

That's ok, the answer is clear. Previous agreement became null and void by Kaplan's ruling. The MEC's resolution was also rejected by the membership. To devote more time and resources to advocate for another bargaining unit makes the MEC and its executives vulnerable to future suits from any of the members for causing harm to their careers.

New reserve rules and atmosphere of mergers and acquisition make this even more important.

Flow will not change recruitment and retention at Encore, not that it should be the responsibility of WestJet pilots. Air Canada and all other major airlines have no flow, yet they have no problems recruiting for their regionals. Either better conditions or better career progression is what's needed. Time to move forward.
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kiaszceski
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Re: One List

Post by kiaszceski »

cloak wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:18 pm
Air Canada and all other major airlines have no flow
Yes they have, Jazz and AC has a 90% agreement.
Delta has one with Endeavor.
United has one with Commutair/ExpressJet.

However I agree Sunwing or Air Transat doesn't have any, but you need at least 2000hrs to apply.

What do you mean by "better career progression" when not talking about flowing to mainline?
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Re: One List

Post by Hudson90 »

Quote: Yes they have, Jazz and AC has a 90% agreement.
Delta has one with Endeavor.
United has one with Commutair/ExpressJet.

Yeah BOTL!

A flow agreement is just that. Mainline agrees to allow a certain percentage of regional pilots to flow onto their PDL when they need crewing. Mainline doesn’t give to hoots, who flows. It’s up to the regional negotiating committee to bargain and control who flows. Regional DOH is the norm. Once you flow to mainline, its BOTL period. The one-list fiasco was a mess/mistake from the start.
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