One List

[aerobod]

Using FlightStats monthly data (https://www.flightstats.com/v2/monthly- ... s/airlines), the flight cancellation percentage of scheduled flights over the past 6 months for Encore compared with Jazz and Porter (100 - Completion Factor) is:

Encore (May - Oct 2019) - 1.51, 0.84, 1.37, 3.11, 4.15, 1.17 - Average 2.03% or ~6 flights out of ~300 per day
Jazz (May - Oct 2019) - 1.43, 3.16, 4.07, 3.09, 3.22, 2.90 - Average 2.98% or ~19 flights out of ~630 per day
Porter (May - Oct 2019) - 4.58, 3.19, 4.37, 3.18, 2.02, 2.42 - Average 3.29% or ~6 flights out of ~170 per day

So nothing unusual about the number of flight cancellations Encore has had compared with the competition, with all having monthly variations up to just over 4%.

[Raincoast]

We'll lose our career certainty,

When I did my PPL, my basic instructors were guys/gals who were on a layoff from AirCanada; look at the guys/gals who worked for the Alberta provincial Air service or the Manitoba Provincial air service - career jobs all, with 'certainty'...

If you want 'career certainty', become an obstetrician or an undertaker.

[Transonic]

Hey Stratopaused,

The culture people at WestJet have done a great job expressing the Why of our jobs which is reflected in your posts regarding Encore’s contribution. I sense the Encore group has morphed this to a popularized idea that mainline is reaping the rewards off Encore’s contribution.

I offer a different view point. IMHO, I believe the company purely views our relationship as simply transactional. We do work and are paid, full stop. There is nothing owed beyond that. Once you view your relationship with WestJet as transactional, things make more sense.

[Stratopaused]

Hey Stratopaused,

The culture people at WestJet have done a great job expressing the Why of our jobs which is reflected in your posts regarding Encore’s contribution. I sense the Encore group has morphed this to a popularized idea that mainline is reaping the rewards off Encore’s contribution.

I offer a different view point. IMHO, I believe the company purely views our relationship as simply transactional. We do work and are paid, full stop. There is nothing owed beyond that. Once you view your relationship with WestJet as transactional, things make more sense.

I also view the relationship as transactional, but a large component of my compensation, according to the agreement when I was hired, was that I would make less money while working at Encore in exchange for a guaranteed position at WestJet and the associated higher income that would go along with it. That is to say, I viewed the transaction as being an overall exchange of labour for money over the course of about thirty years. Instead, that agreement was pulled out from under me, and I now find myself making a lower-than-average wage, without any idea of whether I will be able to make those losses back in the future. The terms of my employment have changed, without any input from me, and I've lost money as a result. I don't see any reason to stay any longer. If the company wants to keep me, and the transactional relationship going forward is going to be a direct one-for-one hour-for-pay exchange with no flow, then they're going to have to raise my wages and ESPP to what the jet pilots are making, and reduce my number of working days, or this relationship won't be worthwhile for me. That might not even be enough to make me happy, because the company won't even allow me to apply at WestJet, so they're treating me worse than an OTS pilot, despite spending years safely operating flights for them. There's a lot of resentment that's going to need to be overcome. I'm just waiting to hear back about an interview, and I'm far from the only one who's ready to bail.

[Stratopaused]

It has nothing to do with the WestJet pilots, you are so misguided. It's the corporation that determines your value. Stop with the pity me attitude.

It has everything to do with the WestJet pilots, and you're deluding yourself if you think you're blameless. Encore stood alongside WestJet pilots and supported them every step of the way with regards to contract negotiations and Swoop, and you turned around and stabbed us in the backs. You, not management, took away the One List. You betrayed us, but you still expect loyalty and respect. You took one of the most united pilot groups on the planet and shattered it. We don't feel like we belong as part of WestJet anymore, we feel like a completely separate entity because you threw us under the bus, and management drove the bus right over us. We're tired of being asked to taxi single-engine and wait until the cabin temperature is uncomfortable before starting the APU, all to help with boosting profit share, when we make so little that we only get a few bucks of that profit share. We get half the ESPP matching you do, and we make a fraction as much overall, so we're barely benefiting from the boost in the stock price. We're getting extended, cold-called, and having our schedules changed. We're working harder, for less money, and what thanks do we get? We lose the One List, and we get yelled at by mainline pilots for adhering to our contract rule which says Encore pilots in uniform get priority in the jumpseat, because we're "just Encore pilots!", the mainline guys "should get it because we make way more money for the company than you ever will!", and "I've been here way longer than him, so I've earned it".
If there's any hope of ever fixing the relationship between WestJet and Encore pilots, it has to be a mutual effort, and it has to be based on respect. If you're expecting us to come grovelling for forgiveness for our insolence and showing deference, it's never going to happen. If a future Pilot Transfer Agreement is proposed to help alleviate Encore's staffing issues, it's going to require the support of the WestJet pilots; management wants the PTA to pass, because the alternative is not financially viable, and Encore pilots obviously want it. The only ones standing in the way of it are WestJet pilots, so don't try and pass the blame onto the "corporation".

[Stratopaused]

Ridiculous as always stratopaused. The sky won't fall without the one list. Encore will keep operating the same as every other regional.

Management has never given an inch on anything with us. They fought us every step of the way with our contract negotiations, and they stretched out the implementation as long as they possibly could. So when Jeff Martin approached our MEC to tell us that there's a problem with our staffing levels and that they need to put together a retention plan to keep more people from leaving, I tend to believe him. If management is willingly coming forward and telling us that they're going to give us more to try to keep us from quitting, then something is seriously awry. Has WestJet ever voluntarily given its employees anything without a fight? That alone should tell you that there's an issue. If you still don't believe me, you can check on Westnet: in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!

[aerobod]

...in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!

Typical days see around 300 Encore flights, so 20 cancellations in a given day would be 6.7% of flights.

The whole of August saw 3.11% of flights cancelled for Encore (9 flights per day on average), that compares with 3.09% for Jazz and 3.18% for Porter, so nothing particularly unusual in comparison to the competition. October was a good month for Encore with low cancellations of 1.17% (4 flights a day), compared with 2.90% for Jazz (18 flights a day) and 2.42% for Porter (4 flights a day).

Obviously all the cancellations are not just for crew related issues, but Encore doesn't have a particular problem with the number of cancellations when the numbers are crunched.

[tbayav8er]

Encore reduced the flying schedule this month due to staffing issues. Not sure if that was the case in October as well. So obviously, considering the flying schedule has been reduced, you're not going to see a hike in cancellation percentages.

...in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!

Typical days see around 300 Encore flights, so 20 cancellations in a given day would be 6.7% of flights.

The whole of August saw 3.11% of flights cancelled for Encore (9 flights per day on average), that compares with 3.09% for Jazz and 3.18% for Porter, so nothing particularly unusual in comparison to the competition. October was a good month for Encore with low cancellations of 1.17% (4 flights a day), compared with 2.90% for Jazz (18 flights a day) and 2.42% for Porter (4 flights a day).

Obviously all the cancellations are not just for crew related issues, but Encore doesn't have a particular problem with the number of cancellations when the numbers are crunched.

[George Taylor]

For Strat
Here check this out,

https://careers.aircanada.com

You'll never be happy here with that axe you have to grind.

Heres something to help with all that pity :

https://www.walmart.ca/en/pantry-househ ... sue/N-3104

[aerobod]

Encore reduced the flying schedule this month due to staffing issues. Not sure if that was the case in October as well. So obviously, considering the flying schedule has been reduced, you're not going to see a hike in cancellation percentages.

...in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!

Typical days see around 300 Encore flights, so 20 cancellations in a given day would be 6.7% of flights.

The whole of August saw 3.11% of flights cancelled for Encore (9 flights per day on average), that compares with 3.09% for Jazz and 3.18% for Porter, so nothing particularly unusual in comparison to the competition. October was a good month for Encore with low cancellations of 1.17% (4 flights a day), compared with 2.90% for Jazz (18 flights a day) and 2.42% for Porter (4 flights a day).

Obviously all the cancellations are not just for crew related issues, but Encore doesn't have a particular problem with the number of cancellations when the numbers are crunched.

November and February are always low points in numbers of flights for the year, any significant issue is unlikely to show itself until April. The schedule for Nov will have been set in May, when the winter schedule was firmed up.

[yvrpilot82]

StratoP just chill out. Alienating the WJ guys isn't the answer. Anyone at Encore who qualifies for AC has either gone, or it in the process of. For the rest, it's just treading water. If you're stuck with keener captains taxiing single engine on snow covered aprons to try and save a dime then I feel for you. Hopefully there's not many koolaid drinkers like that left anymore. They should give their heads a shake.
Really, Encore guys can just check-out now and see what happens. Use those sick days, give nothing extra, do your job safely and go home. Apply elsewhere and not worry. You're only a year in, that's nothing.

[Yycjetdriver]

Strato,
I believe it’s safe to assume all mainline pilots do not care what you think about them, as you shouldn’t the opposite. This is only a job, family and friends should be you’re only real concern. Maybe if you realized this you wouldn’t be so angry.
Secondly you’re anger is directed in wrong direction. It is the company and only the company that is responsible for the failure of the one list. They can’t honestly expect and group to sign onto a “onelist” when that list and transfers is one way and only get to suit how the company wants them exactly. I know mainline pilots who would for sure bid into an encore captain spot if a true one list were to exist. However as previously stated many times in this thread a true one list would be far more costly than the first version.
Lastly the anger you’re showing towards the mainline group isn’t helping. Unless the onelist were to improve significantly before going to a vote I’d expect another vote would result in even more “no” votes solely due to the hostility the encore pilots have directed at the mainline group while they should be towards the company. There was much surprise and disappointment by the mainline group the onelist didn’t pass. A lot of mainline pilots threw up a stink in defence of the encore pilots. Many of those pilots have witnessed the reaction of the encore group and since changed their mind.

[plhought]

I've got no troops in this battle, but from what I gathered from my WestJet/Encore buds - and personal opinion - I tend to agree with Strato on this one.

I don't think Strato is upset personally with the WestJet guys as much as he is upset with the hypocrisy coming from all the stakeholders (ALPA, corporate, pilots, etc).

Not that long ago every WestJet guy on this forum was railing against NCPs diatribes about how the one-list would cease to exist - likely driving the poor guy to some kind of internet-psychosis (remember all the accounts he had???). Many swore and veneiatly argued the one-list would never go away.

WestJet and ALPA knew full well that any successful drive at WestJet would never be long term successful without a similar one at Encore (787s to Encore? ala Swiss Air handing it's 777 orders to the regional pilot group in 2015).

Both ALPA organizing groups dangled that carrot; that the only way to maintain the one-list was to come on board into the ALPA-fold.

Alas two years-ish later and it's basically dead for those on property post-May 2019.

It seems the WestJet pilot talking points about Encore now are "oh it's just a job - you're always going to have to take some punches kiddo - time to start recognizing you're just a number - realize this is simply a transaction blah blah blah"

Pretty different language from years ago when they we're asking help from their "brothers" at Encore asking them to respect the picket when a strike was imminent.

You know, Strato is the guy you want in your union leadership - not people who think the pilot labour movement is simply a numbers game of block times, per diems, credit hours and other hair-pulling complexities. I don't want a leadership that just argues "oh well Jazz doesn't have one list so it's not realistic here". I wouldn't give two rats-ass' about how other regional-mainline relationships work. I'd want the best for myself and my members.

It's pretty clear the WestJet and Encore MECs have thrown the one-list out the window, because "well, it's the company's fault".

You're telling me that two pilot groups, both represented by the same flippin' union, flying the same flippin' passengers, with the same flippin' paint-job, owned by the same flippin' company - can't put a some pressure on the company to make the one list work????

[Yycjetdriver]

I've got no troops in this battle, but from what I gathered from my WestJet/Encore buds - and personal opinion - I tend to agree with Strato on this one.

Anonymous person with second hand info on a public forum is telling me I’m wrong than it must be true. Oops my bad, I guess everything I’ve seen first hand must be less true than what your “Westjet/Encore buds” tell you. My bad I’ll change my opinion and side with strato right away.

[cloak]

It would be incorrect and unfair to blame the WestJet pilot group for the failure of the one list. In fact it could be argued that the one list was started by them to compensate for poor initial conditions at Encore. It could also be argued that had the initial WAWCON at Encore was in line with the industry, a one list scheme would not have been necessary. Although for a period the one list leveraged pilots seniority at WestJet for recruitment at Encore, after certification and the continued divergence of experience level of the two companies, it cannot be continued. As it is with other major airlines, anything but BOTL creates problems and puts seniority out of step with DOH. This is a natural step in WestJet's evolution as it transitions into a legacy carrier which may have to attract experienced talent directly. Market forces too play a vital role and straying too far from other airlines in their relationship with and expectations at regionals would expose the group to more risk and cost.

[plhought]

Anonymous person with second hand info on a public forum is telling me I’m wrong than it must be true. Oops my bad, I guess everything I’ve seen first hand must be less true than what your “Westjet/Encore buds” tell you. My bad I’ll change my opinion and side with strato right away.

I'm didn't say anyone is outright wrong - just that I'm more impressed with Strato's response than the others on this forum. My personal opinion. From the outside looking in. That's all.

I didn't argue what anyone had seen or stated "first hand" - certainly it can't be as dramatic as the recent "Jump Seat Wars" down in the States??

I'm not that anonymous - first name's Patrick, throw in a couple letters out of my user name not hard to figure out

Okay, I'll throw a crazy idea out there - using my Swiss example again. 2018 all the pilot groups harmonized after negots with the mother company. Swiss folded up its "regional" (Swiss 'Global') subsidiary and put it all under one roof.

Maybe 5 years or so something along the lines at WestJet? The Encore AMO is already gone in a bit. The other bits of the company already work out of the campus I assume.

Every new hire starts day one on the Q/Future-Embraer/Mitsu-CRJ/Whateverplane then moves up? That would certainly shake-up the Labour status-qou in Canadian aviation.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Although for a period the one list leveraged pilots seniority at WestJet for recruitment at Encore, after certification and the continued divergence of experience level of the two companies, it cannot be continued.

It cannot be continued?

The majority of people entering mainline off the street have less experience than the captains who are flowing up from Encore. The guys flowing from Encore already have spent years flying the same paint, same passengers, and same common goal as our mainline counterparts.

The only difference between the mainline guys and the Encore guys is that Encore is still willing to support mainline. It seems that the comradery only goes one way now.

[cloak]

That's fine, however it could be argued that it is a personal choice and pilots can go to WestJet directly, or Encore, Link or other regionals WestJet may start and flow from there, but to the BOTL. It can be appreciated that there's no good reason for WestJet pilots to leverage their seniority to recruit for Encore or other regionals, nor to pioneer a revolutionary industry-leading deal for the regionals! If it's not done elsewhere, it's for good reasons. It's called market forces. In fact it could be argued that without a one list scheme at start, Encore WAWCON would be much closer to market levels and would help lift the industry as a whole. A one list scheme creates an imbalance in the industry.

[plausiblyannonymous]

That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?

[cloak]

In other words, no good reasons to offer, only more rude comments or emotional retorts.