One List

[lostaviator]

The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.

Please do share. What was this rumour that caused me to vote the way I did?

I’d like to know too. Especially considering alpa isn’t in the habit of releasing their survey results.

Every pilot I know who voted read the LOA and had concerns about the actual language. There was no “rumour” that influenced our vote.

Tbaya8er,

We know. Emotions are high and some people express them differently than others.

The major takeaway from this is: the door is never closed forever. The company has a long history of threatening us with money, jobs, career growth etc to get their way with a vote. One list, wide body moa, etc. But everyone always comes back to the table and things always get resolved.

[plausiblyannonymous]

The reason why the last vote was rejected was mostly due to misinformation. The polling done afterward showed that the majority of people heard a rumour, didn't bother to read the proposal, and voted based on the rumour.

Please do share. What was this rumour that caused me to vote the way I did?

I’d like to know too. Especially considering alpa isn’t in the habit of releasing their survey results.

Every pilot I know who voted read the LOA and had concerns about the actual language. There was no “rumour” that influenced our vote.

Tbaya8er,

We know. Emotions are high and some people express them differently than others.

The major takeaway from this is: the door is never closed forever. The company has a long history of threatening us with money, jobs, career growth etc to get their way with a vote. One list, wide body moa, etc. But everyone always comes back to the table and things always get resolved.

It's something I picked up from a bunch of reading, but it is obviously just an opinion that I have.

Here is some of the stuff I have been reading through:
viewtopic.php?f=138&t=124291&p=1058183& ... y#p1058199

Are you sure you failed that Chinese medical because of your eyes?

Well, I might not have, but it looks like the MEC Chairman might have failed due to not using his eyes to read. All he had to do was ask, I would have told him what the Seniority Policy was all about. With pictures!!!

From the ALPA forum, a post from my colleague:

[Gear Jerker]

Senior Encore Training Captain here. Choosing to flow whenever I can, now. Been patiently waiting for this thing to play out and trusting the MEC’s to negotiate in good faith and get this done.

From what I’ve seen of the new PTA comms, there is not enough info to vote yet. Hopefully the road shows will enlighten everyone and this turns out to be a good thing.

I winced a little when I first read the comms; it’s like a first world version of blackmail. I understand the frustration.

Therefore, I ask; if after seeing the actual language and thoroughly understanding all the conditions and their implications it is truly not acceptable, don’t accept going to a vote and rolling the dice! This goes to Encore pilots with our MEC, and WJ pilots with your MEC, don’t just put up with it! Nobody benefits from a second failed vote.

Surveys show overwhelming support for the one list in principle, despite the avcanada crowd appearing to show otherwise. It needs to get done right. If it’s not right, let’s make our elected groups go back to the table and fix the damn thing.

Morale is at an all time low at Encore these days. A second kick in the nuts would be ugly.

[cloak]

It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.

[plausiblyannonymous]

It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.

Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?

[Rowdy]

It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.

Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?

He's also very Anti-ALPA.

[Transonic]

There is a group of pilots who dislike ALPA, mainly due to AC/Regional seniority trouble of the 90s. This is understandable.

Many in this group intend to raid ALPA with a lower cost, more agreeable union within 2 years.

The main argument used against ALPA during the certification drive was that the one list would be impossible with ALPA. Therefore if the one list fails, the anti ALPA campaign strengthens.

[cloak]

It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.

Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?

It's not that I hate it, but don't believe a one list scheme is generally good for the industry for the reasons mentioned above. It masks market forces and skews the balance. Even though you've been at Encore for only a few months as you said, ask yourself this question: without a one list scheme what would it take for you (or others like you) to come or stay at Encore? And that's what it should be. Market forces defined by supply and demand. Air Canada gives no preferential treatment and no "top-up" pay, why do Encore pilots go there with its 4 year "probationary" pay? Worse yet, its regionals have no one list or guaranteed flow, why do pilots go there? Clearly one list is not the solution to recruitment.

There are more complexities in place too that have to do with setting precedent. It's not unreasonable to assume there will be further consolidation in the market. What happens if Onex buys other potentially older airlines? Merging of seniority lists which are NOT based on DOH is very lengthy and contentious. In the absence of a national seniority system, while seniority is company-specific, one has to work there to get it.

Now, what do you love about the one list, and why do you think a pilot should be put on the seniority list of another company?

[cloak]

It would be interesting to see that survey by which the MEC created a mandate for itself to renegotiate the one list right after the first vote when it said specifically it wouldn't. Of course it said it to bear pressure on the pilots to pass it. Then it said the pilots "failed" to pass the resolution, when it could be said that they "rejected" it. The MEC behaves like an autocratic leader that the uninitiated every day pilots are just supposed to follow, as opposed to an elected body that represents the interests of the pilots in its bargaining unit.

Understandably when it's personal it's hard to keep perspective, at the same time, in this era of pilot shortage, a one list scheme is one effective way to keep WAWCON under industry standards. Without one the shortage is not masked and companies have to actually respond to market forces. Much like going through windshear, favourable conditions have to be utilized to gain more altitude in case it has to be lost on the other side when performance is bad! ALPA so far has lacked focus and been unable to create good traction in negotiations.

Why are you so against the one list? What does the one list do to you that you hate so much?

He's also very Anti-ALPA.

I can speak for myself and certainly not anti anything and open to all discussions. At the same time, one has to measure and judge results. In my opinion ALPA has not fostered close enough relationship to generate meaningful and fruitful negotiations. As a result it over-promised (Swoop paying mainline wages), and under-delivered (pay did not improve and bonus lost too). If pilots wanted transparency and to have a voice so that it doesn't feel like they are being told what to do; now it seems it is ALPA that tells them what to do! The MEC follows its own agenda and resists changes and results that are not to its liking. This is not democratic. Then there is the tying things together story! If you feel differently about ALPA's accomplishments in this case, please share. I'm happy to be proven wrong or for things to change in the future.

[Mr. North]

Cloak, plenty of people in this thread and in others have proven you wrong time and again. Yet you continue along in some weird alternate reality of distorted facts and half truths. I don't really care personally but others with less understanding should know your posts are complete BS.

[altiplano]

"certainly not anti anything"

"open to discussion"

[cloak]

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?

[plhought]

What the **** does ACPA have to do with a WestJet/Encore seniority list?

If you want to dig up grievences from 20 years ago go make a new thread.

[Hudson90]

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?

These guys don’t know what was going on 20 yrs ago Cloak. The majority of them were still pissing the bed.

[altiplano]

Hi Hudson - I didn't know you were riding along with cloak...

[flyinhigh]

What the **** does ACPA have to do with a WestJet/Encore seniority list?

Could not agree more. Who cares what Air Canada is doing with their regionals and seniority lists.

The Encore pilots have stood with you holding hands through your entire negotiation, where as 95% of mainline pilots stood with the Encore pilots through theres. The REIP payments when you flow is not industry standard, in fact it sets the bar which is what every negotiation should do. The rest of the contract is industry standard (Trig and Duty Rigs to come in, Higher sick time than mainline, solid work rules, etc.) and will get much better.

Cloak as I read your comments, it reads to me that you are almost jealous of the fact that Encore has negotiated aspects of there agreement which is better than yours and are trying to say, f&(K'em AC doesn't have that. Really who cares what AC has, why can't WJ set the standard in every facet instead of going, Nope AC don't have it.

If the language of whatever is being proposed is not adequate than it absolutely should not be brought forward until it is up to par and your happy with it, but for the love of gawd don't say NO just because its not industry standard and you don't believe in it. Ask yourself, what will this do for our profession as a whole moving forward?

[cloak]

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?

These guys don’t know what was going on 20 yrs ago Cloak. The majority of them were still pissing the bed.

I suspect you might be right and a lot of the contributors are very young and dare I say come across a little entitled. I always know that when my opponents in a debate resort to ridicule and profanities, is because they feel they've lost the debate. Not that I want to prove anyone wrong though. This is an opportunity for everyone to contribute to the discussion at hand and ultimately everyone will draw their own conclusions.

I think it is a valid discussion to have and WestJet and Encore pilots alike should weigh the comments that come from other pilots to see if they advocate(d) for something else in their own company and here sound hypocritical and for the purpose of disturbing the feces so to speak. One thing for certain, is that if this issue does make its way before the CIRB, whether as a DFR challenge or common employer application, that the Air Canada vs. Jazz dispute is very relevant and be used as precedent.

[x-wind]

You've been proven wrong a few times now that I've seen Cloak and I find your arguments suspect of being anti pilot.

I've not been around for too long but I'm pretty sure you're a troll. If I'm wrong then you'd be a great guy to spend a few days with in the airplane and chat.

[Gear Jerker]

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?

These guys don’t know what was going on 20 yrs ago Cloak. The majority of them were still pissing the bed.

I suspect you might be right and a lot of the contributors are very young and dare I say come across a little entitled. I always know that when my opponents in a debate resort to ridicule and profanities, is because they feel they've lost the debate. Not that I want to prove anyone wrong though. This is an opportunity for everyone to contribute to the discussion at hand and ultimately everyone will draw their own conclusions.

I think it is a valid discussion to have and WestJet and Encore pilots alike should weigh the comments that come from other pilots to see if they advocate(d) for something else in their own company and here sound hypocritical and for the purpose of disturbing the feces so to speak. One thing for certain, is that if this issue does make its way before the CIRB, whether as a DFR challenge or common employer application, that the Air Canada vs. Jazz dispute is very relevant and be used as precedent.

OK, I'll bite again.

It's ironic that you mention the name calling as opposed to constructing a proper argument approach to a debate.

I'm glad you said that Encore pilots come across as entitled. This is rhetoric that has been used before, and will no doubt continue to be used.

If one applies for a job, and during the interview they are offered a different job, but it exists in writing that said job contributes to seniority for the job one thought they were applying for, is it then entitled to be upset when the seniority card is pulled away? Is it entitled to continue to fight for it?

This is exactly the case of numerous Direct Entry Captains. Arrived for a WJ FO interview, was offered Encore direct entry Captain, but since the one list existed, the seniority building aspect wasn't a concern. Then, for hundreds of others, they came to Encore because the one list existed in writing until May 14, 2019. It continues to be honoured by the company and by the WJ MEC.

Entitlement is expecting to be rewarded a certain way without putting in commensurate effort that others would normally put in for that reward. Or something like that. Entitlement is not, accepting the terms of an existing agreement which has been in effect for a number of years, and then being surprised or frustrated when the terms are changed.

Has the 2000hr 1900 captain paid their dues more than the 5000hr Encore Q400 captain, and is thus deserving of a seniority spot hundreds of numbers higher, even if the Encore captain took the job because of the seniority?

As for the "they have no idea what was going on 20 years ago" argument; perhaps you're right. Does that have anything to do with this? Isn't a more defined career path, and better working conditions etc. better for our profession? I worked the ramp up north, I did jump hunting road trips, I survived 703, I moved a bunch of times in order to build my career. Do I think that everyone should go through the exact same BS that I went through, or that you presumably went through? Absolutely not. I think progress is a good thing, and the eating your young mentality is a lose-lose.

[Freeport_Flyer]

It is either dumb luck or pure genius that the company has been able to get two parts of the same union to go to war with each other.

"Divide and conquer" - Julius Caesar