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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:38 am Didn't realize brevity was a requirement for this board! One of the biggest complaints with the last One List vote was that there were no bump down provisions for lay-offs. Now we have them. Maybe the cash for stock options isn't good enough for you for a PTA, but we won't get a higher cash value for our stock options at a later date. I wasn't attacking you, but if your motives are self serving it is helpful to know. I think this PTA is good for the pilot group as a whole. But it would be good for me too as it improves my chances of actually getting the option for Capt on a WB before I have to retire. WB growth is good for every pilot at WJ though. Growth at Swoop or jets at the regional level don't help us.
So it's ok for you to be selfish for your WB prospect or your Encore buddies, but not others?!! Good to know. This PTA doesn't improve the prospect of WB command for WJ pilots. The option money isn't good either when you factor in tax treatment, and bundling it, makes it even worse.

As for RJs, they are already in the CBA, so they will probably end up somewhere, but without this PTA and WJ seniority numbers, it makes it less likely because at Encore or elsewhere, at least they will have to pay them industry standard. This is why many are voting NO.
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Hangry
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Re: One List

Post by Hangry »

Encoretears.png
Encoretears.png (857.45 KiB) Viewed 3561 times
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elite
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Re: One List

Post by elite »

Impact wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:58 pm ... Look at the mess it's already created. I hope those who pushed for this one-list concept in the beginning, now have enough humility to see the errors of their ways.
Good point! Are they? Or are they still pushing for it?! Imagine if ACPA MEC presented a proposal to add Jazz and Sky to Air Canada's seniority list based on their DOH?! Be a very short meeting and a short tenure for those executives!!

They too need those smaller planes to fill their big WBs (which they have many more). They have flow too, to the BOTL, AFTER an interview; yet have no problems filling those ground schools. No recruitment issues there! The corporation, whose job it is to do that, does it well!

George Taylor wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:56 am ....it was really sleazy of management to tie WJ pilots compensation to the Encore PTA...
Is it all them? not hard to follow the trail of resolutions, etc. How good is this deal for WestJet pilots and why is it being done in direct violation of ALPA bylaws in regards to seniority? Did you notice that it can't be changed? So the previous vote could, but not this one?! Interesting...
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Last edited by elite on Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
elite
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Re: One List

Post by elite »

combined.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:38 am Didn't realize brevity was a requirement for this board! One of the biggest complaints with the last One List vote was that there were no bump down provisions for lay-offs. Now we have them. Maybe the cash for stock options isn't good enough for you for a PTA, but we won't get a higher cash value for our stock options at a later date. I wasn't attacking you, but if your motives are self serving it is helpful to know. I think this PTA is good for the pilot group as a whole. But it would be good for me too as it improves my chances of actually getting the option for Capt on a WB before I have to retire. WB growth is good for every pilot at WJ though. Growth at Swoop or jets at the regional level don't help us.
The worst kept secret is that RJ’s coming. I’ve heard announcement in February. However they’re not going to Encore, Swoop, or WESTJET. Consensus is they’ll be operate by a company that already has RJ experience on many levels and is looking for new work. Not hard to guess who that is. I imagine at a fraction of the cost it would take to start up an RJ program at any of the companies in the WJ group.
I guess the bigger question or issue is what will happen with this PTA if/when Onex sells Encore and all it’s feeder flying?
They don’t have to look far to see how that can be a cheaper method of hub and spoke flying.
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sarg
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Re: One List

Post by sarg »

Gerry Schwartz wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:33 pm cloak & sarg,

If you actually want harmony and no 'strife' in WJ and you are not making you argument solely for you own self betterment, then, while I applaud you, you are missing the big picture. While your ideas of 100% flow to BOTL or somehow grandfathering Encore pilots while still voting NO are rational ones, they are made in a vacuum. Neither of you have provided any suggestion on what should happen with Swoop. You make the assumption that everything will remain status quo with a NO vote. This is NOT the case.

If we were setting up an airline agreement from scratch, sure! 100% flow from the regional to BOTL of mainline would be a great idea. But we're not coming at this with a blank sheet of paper. For better or for worse (because it is a marriage of sort!) we have 700 or so pilots whose lives will be affected by this vote. If that is truly how you want to set things up in the future, this can only be done via a YES vote. The fact is that the company is not in a position to flow 100% from Encore and only hire to Encore.

Outside of the ethical arguments which I've outlined and you've suggested are 'weak', the fact remains that alienating the Encore pilot group and voting to remove the seniority they have will have a significant negative impact on our prospects at WJ. Case in point, sarg used the examples of the company taking away ports. While it is not a direct comparison, ask any of our YWG or YHZ pilots how they feel about losing their ports and they are still F*%king pissed off at the company years later. And that's just for having to commute more often!

If you read the PTA, the key sections not only provide us WJ pilots with bump down and lay off protection, but also the ability to go to Encore and keep our YOS. It provides certainty on seniority provisions AND offers a means to amend the provisions. It does this in a way that grandfathers the Encore pilots. Therefore, every single change that needs to get made going forward does so with the two pilot groups working together against the company. Maybe there is an argument to change the way seniority is distributed to new hires at Encore as compared to WJ/Swoop. Maybe there is a way to better allocate pilot resources. Maybe the company decides that it wants to open a YHZ base for Encore and suddenly WJ FOs think: "actually, that'll save me a commute". These are all types of things that the pilot groups can, if everyone's seniority is reserved/grandfathered (whatever you want to call it) can work in unison on.

If not, take that anger and frustration that our guys feel towards the company for changing their ports. Personally, I think guys are overreacting about losing their ports, but it doesn't matter what I think, the reality is that guys are pissed years and years later. Now, think of how the Encore pilots will react if we take away their seniority when we have the opportunity to protect it. Whether you think their anger is warranted or not doesn't really matter, the fact is that they will be angry and they, rightly so, will negotiate with the company in a way that will benefit only them and have strong negative impacts on us. I personally wouldn't blame them, but having divided pilot groups negotiating against each other will be detrimental to all.

So, if you really want to decrease the 'strife' at WJ, the only way to do so is to vote YES. Having the two pilot groups negotiating in unison against the company by having the current Encore pilot's seniority protected is BY FAR the best way to improve conditions and career advancement for us, generally, at WJ. Just like a No vote, the status quo will not remain the same just because of a YES vote. There will be different factors that come up and that need to be addressed. When the WJPA agreement discussing flow was made, Swoop was nothing more than a Gregg and Camshaft's wet dream. Now it's the reality. For the most part, WJ and Encore pilots have been unified in avoiding Swoop's pathetic WAWCONS. Do you think that will remain? And if there are further changes and surprises in the future, would you want the pilot groups working together, or against each other to fight the company if they try to pull further BS ideas like Swoop?

If your sole purpose is in your own self interest because you want to jump the Encore pilots for your own personal seniority, shame on you for suggesting all these reasons why you don't think the PTA will work. However, if the true purpose of your posts is that you honestly want a seniority system that will facilitate a proper staffing and career advancement for all of us at WJ and the WestJet Group of Companies, then the only way to see that through is with a YES vote. If you truly want what you outline in your posts, you need to vote YES. A NO vote won't get us any closer to common employer. This isn't a blueprint for a new airline. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If we negatively effect the seniority of 450 Encore pilots, how do you think they will react at the negotiating table? Voting NO will bite us all in the ass.
Gerry,

Just to make things clear the only difference a Yes or No vote will make to me is the amount of the value (read extra money) that I get for my options, which quite frankly I could care less about. I would rather that money be used to improve WAWCON at Encore. You do seem like you're hoping for personal gain out of the vote however. I said nothing about ports, I said Calgary base, before ports WestJet was a 1 base airline. Then ports came, then multiple bases and ports cancelled.

There will be no status quo no matter the vote outcome, things will change they always do. If Onex or a different new owner want RJ's at Encore that will happen whether there is a PTA in place or not. There will be regional feed into the WestJet network with or without the PTA, with or without Encore being owned by the WestJet group of companies. So, in your view of the world what happens to 500 Encore pilots that have reserved seniority on WestJet mainline if Onex decides that best way to proceed is by selling Encore of with a CPA? The PTA is subject to a cancellation clause enforceable by any signatory, do you think if the pilot shortage reversed tomorrow that company might not cancel the PTA effecting those same 500 pilots just so they wouldn't have to guarantee flow? The best thing for the Encore pilots is to be able to make a decision about their career path that is as clean as possible, that means not having a portion of the path controlled by some other group, that means no PTA. Is it going to hurt, yes but it makes things clean as of today and keeps it clean going forward. Onex buys Sunwing to merge with WestJet the Sunwing pilots are going to expect a clean DOH merger with WestJet pilots not pilots of a third party in the mix. What happens to the feelings of those 500 Encore pilots + the 180 pilots that have flowed in 2 years or 10 years time when they "loose" the seniority they thought they had? What made sense at 1 point in time doesn't always make sense at different point in time.

Swoop pilots are part of the WestJet MEC, if Swoop still exists in 3 years time I expect the MEC to bring their WAWCON to the same standards as the WestJet pilots.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

Hangry wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:06 am Encoretears.png
Wow, you are an asshole.

How long have you been at mainline... sixteen months? Are you afraid that you will go down the seniority list?
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

sarg wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:19 pm ... If Onex or a different new owner want RJ's at Encore that will happen whether there is a PTA in place or not. There will be regional feed into the WestJet network with or without the PTA, with or without Encore being owned by the WestJet group of companies. So, in your view of the world what happens to 500 Encore pilots that have reserved seniority on WestJet mainline if Onex decides that best way to proceed is by selling Encore of with a CPA? The PTA is subject to a cancellation clause enforceable by any signatory, do you think if the pilot shortage reversed tomorrow that company might not cancel the PTA effecting those same 500 pilots just so they wouldn't have to guarantee flow? The best thing for the Encore pilots is to be able to make a decision about their career path that is as clean as possible, that means not having a portion of the path controlled by some other group, that means no PTA. Is it going to hurt, yes but it makes things clean as of today and keeps it clean going forward. Onex buys Sunwing to merge with WestJet the Sunwing pilots are going to expect a clean DOH merger with WestJet pilots not pilots of a third party in the mix. What happens to the feelings of those 500 Encore pilots + the 180 pilots that have flowed in 2 years or 10 years time when they "loose" the seniority they thought they had? What made sense at 1 point in time doesn't always make sense at different point in time.

Swoop pilots are part of the WestJet MEC, if Swoop still exists in 3 years time I expect the MEC to bring their WAWCON to the same standards as the WestJet pilots.
You bring many good points! Thank you for that.

If it's in the CBA, it is likely to happen. WestJet has already lost those 50 RJs. With WJ seniority, it will make it very cheap to operate them at Encore. Without this PTA, at least they'll have to pay industry standard. And then there's the issue of Encore sale which also is likely.

Same with more mergers, which let's face it, is quite likely. And Sunwing is a prime candidate. Merging non DOH seniority lists with reserved seniority is a mess with years of expensive and stressful litigation. One thing not sure about, is the cancellation. If there is a grandfather clause once voted in, it will make things very complicated.

And you are right, it's not worth the stress that it causes everyone, including Encore pilots. This affects everyone, including the very senior group, for future mergers. This PTA will be bad for WestJet and Encore pilots and the industry in general. And the longer it lingers on, the longer the stress and wrangling....
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: One List

Post by Mostly Harmless »

So what you are saying is;

WJ is going to give RJ's to Encore, the company that has "hard landed" 3, or is it 4, Dash 8's.

OR;

Subcontract the worst 705 operator in Canada to fly RJ's.

What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

In a day or two it won't matter as the vote will close and the issue never be revisited again regardless of the outcome.
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Reinforcer
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Re: One List

Post by Reinforcer »

I cannot quite understand how a reasonable person could argue in favour of a one-list between these two pilot groups.

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

As I said in my earlier post, encore really needs to work on improving its WAWCON instead of worrying about a seniority list on a different company. However, I still stand by my argument that those hired pre May 2019 should be honoured their spot on the list.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:02 pm So what you are saying is;

WJ is going to give RJ's to Encore, the company that has "hard landed" 3, or is it 4, Dash 8's.

OR;

Subcontract the worst 705 operator in Canada to fly RJ's.

What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

In a day or two it won't matter as the vote will close and the issue never be revisited again regardless of the outcome.
No, that's not what anyone is saying at all. It's not like it was any of our ideas to give those RJ flying away, the union lost that in the CBA. At this point that flying is unfortunately lost. What I'm saying is that let's not make it even cheaper for the corporation to give that flying to Encore, leveraging WJ seniority numbers. Without WJ seniority numbers they will have to pay industry standard. Also, without WJ seniority the corporation is more likely to give the RJ flying to Encore to improve recruitment and retention, as opposed to another operator.
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altiplano
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Re: One List

Post by altiplano »

I can't believe you guys are revisiting this - and so soon! Didn't you vote No already this year? Seems that should have been it. Decided.

The forces that want to be the only mainline airline giving away seniority to people at another airline must be strong! Astonishing.

Certainly benefits the company in that it might attract a few more people to Encore, but I imagine it will be tough to attract and retain anyone with experience at the mainline with the prospect of hundreds of regional tueboprop pilots parachuting ahead of them on the list for years and years.

Also surprising that you're doing it now, as Onex prepares to take over, and the future of where everything will be is a little blurry... Again the forces must be strong...
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

Voting closed.
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Gerry Schwartz
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Re: One List

Post by Gerry Schwartz »

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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

The results of the Pilot Transfer Agreement ratification vote are in. The PTA has been accepted. 87% of WestJet pilots cast their electronic ballots and the vote has passed with 64% voting in favour of the agreement.
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oxfordhouse
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Re: One List

Post by oxfordhouse »

Apparently an Encore Pilot is a WestJet Pilot 🙄
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AirportCoffee
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Re: One List

Post by AirportCoffee »

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180
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Re: One List

Post by 180 »

Reinforcer wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:24 pm Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.
You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver »

180 wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:00 pm
Reinforcer wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:24 pm Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.
You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.
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