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Mach1
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Re: One List

Post by Mach1 »

"Companies get the union they deserve." - Clive Beddoe.

I wonder why WJ has unions today? ________

That is a pretty disappointing post Realitychex. Here's how that reads:

Executives never make mistakes. Ever.
All problems are because of the lazy employees.
If anything goes wrong, it's the employee's fault.
If anything goes right, it's because of the executives genius.
You lot are lucky you are allowed to work for us. It's not like you make any money for the company through the work you do because you are just a cost item on a ledger sheet. We executives make all the money with our brilliance.

Once upon a time, an employee was considered an asset and treated as such. Now they are the enemy of your bonus. Meanwhile, companies are run by what appears to by psychopaths who have no empathy for anyone and no sense of right and wrong.

The whole point of making it expensive to retrain people in a lay off is to cause a company to really, really think about it before they lay off ~80% of their pilots. How many did AC lay off? WJ has become AC of the 1990's... where the executives hated the employees (as shown by your post), the employees start hating the executive... and since they can't take it out on the executive, they take it out on the customer. The customer hates the company and the company goes bankrupt. Why WJ refuses to learn that lesson of history (because it sure looks like AC did) is beyond me but there's the top of the top marching down this well worn pathway determined to repeat the mistakes of others... Oh right, executives never make mistakes. It's all the unions fault.

I can't help but wonder if WJ would be unionised today had the executive not decided to start treating the employees as the enemy.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

vrefplus5 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:19 am
The only practical option is for WJ to close Encore and place the Q400's into the WJ fleet.
+1. And may very well happen.
With all due respect, that will not change the challenge presented by current conditions.

The challenge right now is not unique to WestJet or even airline industry. It's global. This is why all industries have reduced hours, as there is little demand! Until restrictions are lifted and people start flying again, some understanding, patience and cooperation is needed.
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flashheart
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Re: One List

Post by flashheart »

Realitychex wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
The boogie man scare tactic. You are so predictable. I remember your "we need SWOOP NOW!!!" post due to the phantom ghost that was going to suck up the entire market.

Give it a break man.
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Realitychex
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Re: One List

Post by Realitychex »

flashheart wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:08 pm
Realitychex wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:14 am Genius move.

Force the company to spend finite cash retraining pilots to fly aircraft temporarily until this SS is over.

The airlines that bounce back to previous operations the fastest will be the ones that were not forced by intransigent unions to expend their most limited resource on idiotic, wasteful retraining programs such as these.

The concept of short term pain, long term gain is completely lost on some folks.

Meanwhile, the competition, both existing and otherwise, must be thanking their lucky stars the once leanest and meanest operator in Canada now has to deal with a collective dose of stupid.

Indigo is going to club WJ into quick oblivion if this sort of nonsense continues. At that point, seniority and allegiance to big brother union will buy you a cup of hot, steaming jack squat.

8)
The boogie man scare tactic. You are so predictable. I remember your "we need SWOOP NOW!!!" post due to the phantom ghost that was going to suck up the entire market.

Give it a break man.
Make no mistake about it. WJ will need Swoop in a big way on the other side of this.

Leisure will come back faster than business, but stimulated by low fares, which requires low unit costs.

There are going to be a ton of 737-800’s available, (AA alone have almost 80 sisterships available). Aircraft leasing for $225k a month in Feb are now $150k.

There will be all kinds of experienced pilots and AME’s available.

There might never be a better window of opportunity for a Cdn startup or even the expansion of Flair into all the various voids down the road.

Swoop better be in the game and ready, willing and able to deal with such a scenario.

Be thankful that many of the sort of people who could pull this off with ease in Canada are already tied into a US based startup that’s sitting in the weeds, fully capitalized and with an active OC with a B737.
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ToolShed
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Re: One List

Post by ToolShed »

And People will fly those 737NGs for $100/hour...

or less.

Again.

That is the sad reality.
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flashheart
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Re: One List

Post by flashheart »

Oh yes Im sure the public is DYING to be crammed into a Swoop high density 737 after an epidemic
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Kaykay
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Re: One List

Post by Kaykay »

flashheart wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:47 pm Oh yes Im sure the public is DYING to be crammed into a Swoop high density 737 after an epidemic
+1

Would almost rather dish out the cash for a business class ticket or just not go anywhere at all. No thank you on that middle seat.
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Realitychex
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Re: One List

Post by Realitychex »

Think beyond the current crisis.

I’m sure people figured commercial sea travel was done on April 16th 1912 and there was no future in commercial air travel on May 7th 1937.

There was no shortage of experts predicting the permanent decimation of demand for air travel on Sept 12 2001 either.

Lo and behold, the snow starts to fly in November and people that would “never get on an airplane again” are spending $ like drunken sailors on tickets to Cancun, Punta Cana, Montego Bay and snowbirds are flying off to their winter homes in Florida, Arizona.

The best strategy to ensure you have a job to go back to is do everything you can to make sure your employer is the tallest midget cowboy in the room with a full bandolier of bullets.

There’ll be no future for 98lb weakling airlines when this is over and done with.
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Last edited by Realitychex on Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Daniel Cooper
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Re: One List

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Rich people are losing a lot of money during this pandemic. They need to pass the bill on to the lower classes.
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FL320
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Re: One List

Post by FL320 »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:24 am Rich people are losing a lot of money during this pandemic. They need to pass the bill on to the lower classes.
Wrong: rich (and some higher class) educated people are now enjoying many opportunities to make more money. The money always move from one hand to another; it does not disappear.
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Dh8Classic
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Re: One List

Post by Dh8Classic »

Due to a desire to change jobs back in late 2019, I thought I might start applying at WJ. The Onelist thing had fallen through. Seemed like a good place to work. Then all of a sudden, Onelist. Instead of anybody coming into WJ mainline from the outside starting at the bottom, which seemed fair, all off the street hires were screwed over for any future decent career.

It seems like the Encore guys were quite happy to do that. Now their willingness to do that has come back to bite them. If you had just been fair and accepted going through the process like everyone else instead of demanding that you get ahead, things would be different.

Don't take it personally, but it is a classic example of trying to unfairly get ahead while in their minds, theoretically accepting a risk that they never thought would happen.
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FlyingMonkey
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Re: One List

Post by FlyingMonkey »

Dh8Classic wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:00 pm Due to a desire to change jobs back in late 2019, I thought I might start applying at WJ. The Onelist thing had fallen through. Seemed like a good place to work. Then all of a sudden, Onelist. Instead of anybody coming into WJ mainline from the outside starting at the bottom, which seemed fair, all off the street hires were screwed over for any future decent career.

It seems like the Encore guys were quite happy to do that. Now their willingness to do that has come back to bite them. If you had just been fair and accepted going through the process like everyone else instead of demanding that you get ahead, things would be different.

Don't take it personally, but it is a classic example of trying to unfairly get ahead while in their minds, theoretically accepting a risk that they never thought would happen.
Encore pilots had that seniority long before you came to join WJ. It was taken from us and when it returned, we got back what was ours in the first place. End of story...

You should have known that the one list was not dead when you accepted a job at WJ. It was never dead, just voted down initially. Immediately after it was voted down the WJ MEC and the company were in discussions to get it back.

You took a gamble coming OTS and it didn’t payoff.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: One List

Post by ALPApolicy »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:48 am
Dh8Classic wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:00 pm Due to a desire to change jobs back in late 2019, I thought I might start applying at WJ. The Onelist thing had fallen through. Seemed like a good place to work. Then all of a sudden, Onelist. Instead of anybody coming into WJ mainline from the outside starting at the bottom, which seemed fair, all off the street hires were screwed over for any future decent career.

It seems like the Encore guys were quite happy to do that. Now their willingness to do that has come back to bite them. If you had just been fair and accepted going through the process like everyone else instead of demanding that you get ahead, things would be different.

Don't take it personally, but it is a classic example of trying to unfairly get ahead while in their minds, theoretically accepting a risk that they never thought would happen.
Encore pilots had that seniority long before you came to join WJ. It was taken from us and when it returned, we got back what was ours in the first place. End of story...

You should have known that the one list was not dead when you accepted a job at WJ. It was never dead, just voted down initially. Immediately after it was voted down the WJ MEC and the company were in discussions to get it back.

You took a gamble coming OTS and it didn’t payoff.
Just a clarification on the sequence of events, as I understand them. Perhaps a lawyer could chime in to clarify the exactness on what I say, but once the mainline pilots certified, they then had the right to negotiate their own seniority list as part of the negotiations towards a CBA. Once certification occurred, all previous employment agreements were null and void, with only a statutory freeze in place preventing altering of work terms for, and this is crucial, mainline pilots only. So the procedure where Encore pilots received super-seniority when they were hired at WestJet mainline was legally over at certification.

Through a series of gyrations, the PTA has renewed that scheme. But not for eternity. WestJet ALPA owns the seniority list, and WestJet administers it. WestJet pilots will always control their own seniority list and are free to negotiate changes to it in the future. Not saying they will, but they have that right.

In that sense, Encore pilots will always be gambling that the One List will be maintained.

I’m open to corrections on my interpretation.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:48 am
Dh8Classic wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:00 pm Due to a desire to change jobs back in late 2019, I thought I might start applying at WJ. The Onelist thing had fallen through. Seemed like a good place to work. Then all of a sudden, Onelist. Instead of anybody coming into WJ mainline from the outside starting at the bottom, which seemed fair, all off the street hires were screwed over for any future decent career.

It seems like the Encore guys were quite happy to do that. Now their willingness to do that has come back to bite them. If you had just been fair and accepted going through the process like everyone else instead of demanding that you get ahead, things would be different.

Don't take it personally, but it is a classic example of trying to unfairly get ahead while in their minds, theoretically accepting a risk that they never thought would happen.
Encore pilots had that seniority long before you came to join WJ. It was taken from us and when it returned, we got back what was ours in the first place. End of story...

You should have known that the one list was not dead when you accepted a job at WJ. It was never dead, just voted down initially. Immediately after it was voted down the WJ MEC and the company were in discussions to get it back.

You took a gamble coming OTS and it didn’t payoff.
I believe you misunderstood! Dh8Classic was simply stating that the one list scheme eliminated his interest in joining WestJet because his seniority would be behind hundreds of others that weren't at the airline yet. I believe that sentiment was shared by many, especially more experience pilots. As it turns out, the one list did not have much benefit for any particular party. Encore pilots are subject to substantial reductions, in spite of attempts to sour the milk, the company is faced with a massive cost and time for retraining, and even WestJet pilots didn't get much in return as it only benefits a small portion that may be willing to relocate, etc. There usually is a good reason why everyone does it a certain way!
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Madman
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Re: One List

Post by Madman »

WestJets biggest problem...ALPA, and the incompetence that their decisions made by those to represent and make the best decisions for ALL its members.
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Dh8Classic
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Re: One List

Post by Dh8Classic »

FlyingMonkey wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:48 am
Dh8Classic wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:00 pm Due to a desire to change jobs back in late 2019, I thought I might start applying at WJ. The Onelist thing had fallen through. Seemed like a good place to work. Then all of a sudden, Onelist. Instead of anybody coming into WJ mainline from the outside starting at the bottom, which seemed fair, all off the street hires were screwed over for any future decent career.

It seems like the Encore guys were quite happy to do that. Now their willingness to do that has come back to bite them. If you had just been fair and accepted going through the process like everyone else instead of demanding that you get ahead, things would be different.

Don't take it personally, but it is a classic example of trying to unfairly get ahead while in their minds, theoretically accepting a risk that they never thought would happen.
Encore pilots had that seniority long before you came to join WJ. It was taken from us and when it returned, we got back what was ours in the first place. End of story...

You should have known that the one list was not dead when you accepted a job at WJ. It was never dead, just voted down initially. Immediately after it was voted down the WJ MEC and the company were in discussions to get it back.

You took a gamble coming OTS and it didn’t payoff.
Encore pilots voted to screw the OTS guys long ago instead of accepting that they are from a different airline and should be treated the same. Don't worry, regional guys do that wherever they can. Talk about getting screwed by your own greed. Maybe some of the OTS guys are happy now that there is a Q400 job waiting. I wonder what the Encore results would have been if the vote were today. I suspect one that would toss the mainline guys on the street. Maybe we need a new vote guys....to end Onelist. 100% support from Encore pilots.
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Re: One List

Post by CaptainHaddock »

Ha!, get rid of the one list is shouted out!. Well the fact of the matter is WestJet, Swoop, and Encore ARE all one list now for all intensive purposes. So give it a rest. The most junior Encore FO has 4 years in, and the most junior CA has 6. The majority of Encore is comprised displaced Mainline.All of Swoop is, the most junior Swoop FO has 12 years at WestJet. The most junior WJ FO has 16!.
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Maxpwr
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Re: One List

Post by Maxpwr »

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JBI
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Re: One List

Post by JBI »

Maxpwr wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:05 am
Intensive purposes? When I have a purpose I like it to be intensive. Sounds serious.
I said it like that for years! When I read that it was actually "for all intents and purposes" I was shocked! :lol:

The other one that came up was a friend would was calling something a "mute" point instead of a moot point.
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mmm..bacon
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Re: One List

Post by mmm..bacon »

Dh8Classic wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:00 pm Instead of anybody coming into WJ mainline from the outside starting at the bottom, which seemed fair, all off the street hires were screwed over for any future decent career.
Entitled much? Peeps already working for a company trying to get some say in how their career progression goes while working for that same company are somehow 'screw[ing] over' OTS peeps?
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