One List

[flyinhigh]

What the **** does ACPA have to do with a WestJet/Encore seniority list?

Could not agree more. Who cares what Air Canada is doing with their regionals and seniority lists.

The Encore pilots have stood with you holding hands through your entire negotiation, where as 95% of mainline pilots stood with the Encore pilots through theres. The REIP payments when you flow is not industry standard, in fact it sets the bar which is what every negotiation should do. The rest of the contract is industry standard (Trig and Duty Rigs to come in, Higher sick time than mainline, solid work rules, etc.) and will get much better.

Cloak as I read your comments, it reads to me that you are almost jealous of the fact that Encore has negotiated aspects of there agreement which is better than yours and are trying to say, f&(K'em AC doesn't have that. Really who cares what AC has, why can't WJ set the standard in every facet instead of going, Nope AC don't have it.

If the language of whatever is being proposed is not adequate than it absolutely should not be brought forward until it is up to par and your happy with it, but for the love of gawd don't say NO just because its not industry standard and you don't believe in it. Ask yourself, what will this do for our profession as a whole moving forward?

[cloak]

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?

These guys don’t know what was going on 20 yrs ago Cloak. The majority of them were still pissing the bed.

I suspect you might be right and a lot of the contributors are very young and dare I say come across a little entitled. I always know that when my opponents in a debate resort to ridicule and profanities, is because they feel they've lost the debate. Not that I want to prove anyone wrong though. This is an opportunity for everyone to contribute to the discussion at hand and ultimately everyone will draw their own conclusions.

I think it is a valid discussion to have and WestJet and Encore pilots alike should weigh the comments that come from other pilots to see if they advocate(d) for something else in their own company and here sound hypocritical and for the purpose of disturbing the feces so to speak. One thing for certain, is that if this issue does make its way before the CIRB, whether as a DFR challenge or common employer application, that the Air Canada vs. Jazz dispute is very relevant and be used as precedent.

[x-wind]

You've been proven wrong a few times now that I've seen Cloak and I find your arguments suspect of being anti pilot.

I've not been around for too long but I'm pretty sure you're a troll. If I'm wrong then you'd be a great guy to spend a few days with in the airplane and chat.

[Gear Jerker]

altiplano, since you seem so eager to contribute, what are your thoughts on the subject and why did ACPA fight and defeat it?

These guys don’t know what was going on 20 yrs ago Cloak. The majority of them were still pissing the bed.

I suspect you might be right and a lot of the contributors are very young and dare I say come across a little entitled. I always know that when my opponents in a debate resort to ridicule and profanities, is because they feel they've lost the debate. Not that I want to prove anyone wrong though. This is an opportunity for everyone to contribute to the discussion at hand and ultimately everyone will draw their own conclusions.

I think it is a valid discussion to have and WestJet and Encore pilots alike should weigh the comments that come from other pilots to see if they advocate(d) for something else in their own company and here sound hypocritical and for the purpose of disturbing the feces so to speak. One thing for certain, is that if this issue does make its way before the CIRB, whether as a DFR challenge or common employer application, that the Air Canada vs. Jazz dispute is very relevant and be used as precedent.

OK, I'll bite again.

It's ironic that you mention the name calling as opposed to constructing a proper argument approach to a debate.

I'm glad you said that Encore pilots come across as entitled. This is rhetoric that has been used before, and will no doubt continue to be used.

If one applies for a job, and during the interview they are offered a different job, but it exists in writing that said job contributes to seniority for the job one thought they were applying for, is it then entitled to be upset when the seniority card is pulled away? Is it entitled to continue to fight for it?

This is exactly the case of numerous Direct Entry Captains. Arrived for a WJ FO interview, was offered Encore direct entry Captain, but since the one list existed, the seniority building aspect wasn't a concern. Then, for hundreds of others, they came to Encore because the one list existed in writing until May 14, 2019. It continues to be honoured by the company and by the WJ MEC.

Entitlement is expecting to be rewarded a certain way without putting in commensurate effort that others would normally put in for that reward. Or something like that. Entitlement is not, accepting the terms of an existing agreement which has been in effect for a number of years, and then being surprised or frustrated when the terms are changed.

Has the 2000hr 1900 captain paid their dues more than the 5000hr Encore Q400 captain, and is thus deserving of a seniority spot hundreds of numbers higher, even if the Encore captain took the job because of the seniority?

As for the "they have no idea what was going on 20 years ago" argument; perhaps you're right. Does that have anything to do with this? Isn't a more defined career path, and better working conditions etc. better for our profession? I worked the ramp up north, I did jump hunting road trips, I survived 703, I moved a bunch of times in order to build my career. Do I think that everyone should go through the exact same BS that I went through, or that you presumably went through? Absolutely not. I think progress is a good thing, and the eating your young mentality is a lose-lose.

[Freeport_Flyer]

It is either dumb luck or pure genius that the company has been able to get two parts of the same union to go to war with each other.

"Divide and conquer" - Julius Caesar

[Hudson90]

Stop your whining and drivel! Your embarrassing yourselves. The only one that’s going to lose is you. Your anger towards the WJ pilot group will only backfire. Remember you will have to fly with them sooner our later and your not helping by blaming WJ pilots.. Some were told in mainline ground school years ago, you’ll all be Captains in three years. Did that happen.. No! Shit happens and things change in this industry. Do you think it’s ok for an OTS mainline f/o to be thrown under the bus with a new (changed) agreement. Not going to happen. Point your anger somewhere else. The best out come for you is to start working towards making Encore a place to work. The rest will fall in place. Trust me. You won’t be forgotten. But if you continue to blame the WJ pilots, you’ll have a major headwind in front of you. Be smart. There will be lots of advancement in the near future...it’s up to you how you get there.

Cheers

[Hudson90]

Dubble post.

[plausiblyannonymous]

Do you think it’s ok for an OTS mainline f/o to be thrown under the bus with a new (changed) agreement.

Do I think that someone who has spent one year flying the WestJet tail should be thrown under the bus? No. I do believe that their seniority number should be below the person who has spent the last five years flying a WestJet tail.

What you are arguing is that you are better than us just because your props are ducted.

[Impact]

Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.

[yvrpilot82]

Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.

Isn't it? When myself and many of my close friends started at Encore years ago, we were told that was the only way to expect to get to Westjet. But hey, slog it out in the trenches for a few years working 18 days a month getting tossed around at FL250 and you'll be rewarded for your penance down the road.

How nice of you to think that now, we should have those years stripped away from us. But hey, it's "industry standard" so let's treat them the same as the 250 hour new guys that are coming aboard soon at Encore.

Everyone I talk to at Encore just wants some recognition/grandfathering in for the guys who've been on property before this went downhill. I fail to see how that's unreasonable.

[Hudson90]

Do you think it’s ok for an OTS mainline f/o to be thrown under the bus with a new (changed) agreement.

Do I think that someone who has spent one year flying the WestJet tail should be thrown under the bus? No. I do believe that their seniority number should be below the person who has spent the last five years flying a WestJet tail.

What you are arguing is that you are better than us just because your props are ducted.

Stay positive plausiblyannonymous. Mentor your new f/o and try to make Encore a great place to work. Making room for future WEN pilots will help Movement to mainline. I’m not better then you. Be patient, it will all work out in the end. I look forward to working alongside you and all the Encore team one day soon.

Cheers

[sarg]

Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.

Everyone I talk to at Encore just wants some recognition/grandfathering in for the guys who've been on property before this went downhill. I fail to see how that's unreasonable.

So how do you propose to reconcile the grandfathering with the career expectations of those hired since the seniority list change? Which was clearing define as Jan 1, 2019 not later as some have contended.

So, grandfathering promotes the rights of one group of pilots over the same rights of a different group, how do you best recognize the damage done to the rights of the damaged group, whichever group it might be?

[cloak]

...I'm glad you said that Encore pilots come across as entitled. This is rhetoric that has been used before, and will no doubt continue to be used.

If one applies for a job, and during the interview they are offered a different job, but it exists in writing that said job contributes to seniority for the job one thought they were applying for, is it then entitled to be upset when the seniority card is pulled away? Is it entitled to continue to fight for it?...

Thank you for your comments and to be fair the feeling of "entitlement" is not particular to one group, rather a phenomenon of our time I suppose. For instance there used to be a time that one had to have thousands of hours, jet experience, college diploma, military background, and still be under 30 to be considered by a major airline in Canada! Times are much better now. And to be fair again, the answer to both your questions would have to be yes and yes! If one can advance one's situation through respectable dialogue and negotiations, why not?

At the same time, one has to be prepared to accept outcomes that may not be to one's liking. Outcomes that are not possible under new labour relations and new ownership. Of course it would be good to maintain some sort of flow, which will help with retention and pilot supply for the corporation and is win-win, although more to the benefit of the company as securing a supply of pilots outweighs pilot aspirations in the current market. This should be preferably without a second interview which distinguishes WestJet group above Air Canada and U.S major airlines.

As others have mentioned, change also brings things that are not to everyone's liking. People that have been through bankruptcies, job changes, forced to work overseas, or even change profession altogether, all have experienced this, often in most humbling ways. Even Encore pilots that flowed just before the new top-up pay are probably feeling a little cheated. Fortunately the industry is in expansion and there are plenty of opportunities. Specifically at WestJet group too, the new arrangement will likely bring many new opportunities soon. Good luck.

[Impact]

Never was a supporter of the "one list" concept in which one carries their WJE DOH to mainline. It wasn't industry standard, and was bound to implode eventually. Was a strong supporter of "flow" however.

Nothing personal against Encore pilots, but expecting to bypass OTS hires at a mainline is not on.

Isn't it? When myself and many of my close friends started at Encore years ago, we were told that was the only way to expect to get to Westjet. But hey, slog it out in the trenches for a few years working 18 days a month getting tossed around at FL250 and you'll be rewarded for your penance down the road.

How nice of you to think that now, we should have those years stripped away from us. But hey, it's "industry standard" so let's treat them the same as the 250 hour new guys that are coming aboard soon at Encore.

Everyone I talk to at Encore just wants some recognition/grandfathering in for the guys who've been on property before this went downhill. I fail to see how that's unreasonable.

A grandfathering solution may have legs, and I may be persuaded into something along those lines. What I can say however is that the more I see the entitlement attitude, the less I'm willing to support any solution.

You're not the only one in history who's slogged it out for years working 18 days a month getting tossed around at FL250. Drop the attitude, and we'll talk.

[FlyYYC]

The one list was voted down by the group. Is it not the unions job to move in the direction that the group voted for? Was the vote just for show? If the union can't support the group on this issue how will they support on other issues? Keep the guys already on the list there. No more moving forward. Improve working standards at Encore and stop using Mainline as the carrot on the string.

[Gerry Schwartz]

The one list was voted down by the group. Is it not the unions job to move in the direction that the group voted for? Was the vote just for show? If the union can't support the group on this issue how will they support on other issues?

Surveys! Surveys! Surveys!

The surveys after the failure of the one list vote in May have indicated that the MEC has a clear mandate to continue seniority transfer.

[FlyYYC]

What's the percentage of pilots that completed the survey? Can we get some surveys going on for other issues we don't like? Were these surveys completely anonymous? I'm asking because I did not complete a survey and I was under the impression that a vote was a vote.

[pilotidentity]

So pilots were told at the mainline interview they would have mainline seniority if they took a captain spot at wje and that promise was broken? Who wouldn't be upset about that? That is a huge loss! That isn't the same as "you'll be a captain in 3 years".

Telling someone in those shoes that it will all work out in the end sounds positive but falls flat.

Best of luck that this will be made right.

[Gerry Schwartz]

What's the percentage of pilots that completed the survey? Can we get some surveys going on for other issues we don't like? Were these surveys completely anonymous? I'm asking because I did not complete a survey and I was under the impression that a vote was a vote.

90% of pilots completed the survey. The MEC purposely didn't ask you because they don't like you and think you smell.

[cloak]

The one list was voted down by the group. Is it not the unions job to move in the direction that the group voted for? Was the vote just for show? If the union can't support the group on this issue how will they support on other issues?

Surveys! Surveys! Surveys!

The surveys after the failure of the one list vote in May have indicated that the MEC has a clear mandate to continue seniority transfer.

Then the MEC should share the results of that "survey". The MEC cannot possibly "stand by the pilots' decision", and "continue to negotiate" on its own agenda at the same time! In its emails, it continually contradicts itself. The MEC must serve the membership, not the other way around!