One List

[George Taylor]

The results of the Pilot Transfer Agreement ratification vote are in. The PTA has been accepted. 87% of WestJet pilots cast their electronic ballots and the vote has passed with 64% voting in favour of the agreement.

[oxfordhouse]

Apparently an Encore Pilot is a WestJet Pilot

[AirportCoffee]

.

[180]

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.

[Yycjetdriver]

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.

Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.

[doiwannabeapilot]

because
Pilot 'A' getting hired at Westjet Encore has 1500 hours
Pilot 'B' getting hired at Westjet has 1500 hours

I cannot quite understand how a reasonable person could argue in favour of a one-list between these two pilot groups.

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

As I said in my earlier post, encore really needs to work on improving its WAWCON instead of worrying about a seniority list on a different company. However, I still stand by my argument that those hired pre May 2019 should be honoured their spot on the list.

[doiwannabeapilot]

I guess upgrade times just improved significantly then !
New mainline FOs can expect left seat within 2-3 years!

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.

Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.

[Yycjetdriver]

I guess upgrade times just improved significantly then !
New mainline FOs can expect left seat within 2-3 years!

You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.

Either way regardless of age/experience this is a temporary bandaid put on one problem that will cause another. Never a good idea or business practice.
This PTA will help with retention and recruiting numbers at Encore in the present, however I’m going to assume there’s several hundred junior mainline/swoop pilot dusting off their resumes and applying to AC. It doesn’t matter where the departing pilots are mainline or encore, it’s not good for Westjet as a whole.

How so? Current numbers were 7ish years and now add however many Encore pilots to those numbers. Even if several hundred leave, given current numbers/movement it’s now probably longer than 7 years for new mainline OTS pilots.

[daedalusx]

Just because you can hold the left seat seniority wise doesn’t mean you’ll pass the assessment and upgrade course. One would hope most pilots are sufficiently self-aware of their abilities and experience level.

[CaptainHaddock]

It’s actually still around 8 years, and would be even hire except so many bypass the upgrade to stay out west instead of moving/commuting to YYZ.......unless you are including Swoop, then there is no wait required at all-what a mess.

[Yycjetdriver]

Just because you can hold the left seat seniority wise doesn’t mean you’ll pass the assessment and upgrade course. One would hope most pilots are sufficiently self-aware of their abilities and experience level.

Oh really that’s crazy I didn’t know that (sarcasm).

[bearitus]

That's great news for encore pilots, I am happy for my friends working there! As someone who has a resume in with WestJet mainline currently working left seat for another regional carrier I think I will withdraw my application at this point. Looks like AC and Sunwing are the only options left for me to apply to in Canada.

[Reinforcer]

Let me put it this way:

Pilot ‘A’ getting hired at Encore with 250 hours fresh out of college at the age of 23.

Pilot ‘B’ getting hired at Westjet, a month later, with 5000 hours of industry experience at the age of 35.

But somehow pilot A will be senior to pilot B. Just does not make sense.

You know nothing John Snow.

There’s no shortage of 30, 40, and 50 year olds at Encore with 7,000 to 10,000 plus hours of industry experience who joined 3 to 4 years ago when the Mainline doors were still shut and the only way into “Westjet” was through Encore out of YYZ.

And while all this business was getting sorted, there was a significant number of 20 and 30 year olds hired at Mainline with 3,000 hours or less of King Air and Metro experience.

“People” seem to think Encore is filled with inexperience.

That’s simply not the case.
[/quote]

Ah I see. I didn’t know the new hire experiences are similar between mainline and encore. Thanks for letting me know. I have a few 250 hour mentorees looking for their first job. I’ll let them know to apply to mainline.

[doiwannabeapilot]

I'm sorry to hear that. I hear AC and Sunwing are terrible options.
(more sarcasm)

That's great news for encore pilots, I am happy for my friends working there! As someone who has a resume in with WestJet mainline currently working left seat for another regional carrier I think I will withdraw my application at this point. Looks like AC and Sunwing are the only options left for me to apply to in Canada.

[elite]

So seniority can be bought at WestJet! How much was it, $1500?!! I wonder how many DFR complaints to CIRB about selling their seniority?! This may come back to haunt WJ pilots, especially the apathetic senior group, if Onex buys Porter and instead of merging it with Encore, has to merge it with mainline and senior pilots get bumped down DOH! Also, it will all but stop recruitment at the mainline and worsen the shortage at Encore as people will have to flow from there. For a period, it will work with some cadets coming in, but recruiting experienced pilots will be next to impossible. Unfortunately it will be bad for the industry too, as Air Canada will have no reason to improve entry level wawcon with the influx of applications bound to come in from WestJet. Rock on boys, enjoy your $1500 (minus tax)!

[Yycjetdriver]

Encore pilots can celebrate like they won a lottery, maybe say a free car.
Eventually they will receive the car and realize it’s a 1996 cavalier, that barely runs. In the long run that car ends up costing them more than the actually value of the car, in fact they could have had a newer nicer car for the cost of said repairs.
This PTA will come back to haunt all groups involved minus one, management.
WAWCON’s will remain terrible at all levels within the WJ group, and with Onex at the helm the day will come where a sale or acquisition will screw each group over.
Yet another set back for aviation in Canada.

[Dizzy D]

I think it’s funny that people think that the PTA is bad for the airline industry. Isn’t this just building unity? Management groups are scared shitless of a unified pilot group. I think I’m the long run, this will raise the bar for Canadian aviation. I think we have a better shot of getting more favourable CBA’s in the future. I know the anti-union people will call bullshit, but just let the haters hate.

[FlyingMonkey]

It’s a huge win for everyone at Encore and the Westjet pilot group as a whole. We are now unified and rowing in the same direction moving forward as one group. The negativity towards this PTA is unfounded. There is no way encore and westjet pilots were better off without it. The argument that it is not industry standard and therefore detrimental is nonsense. And further more, the claims that Encore’s wawcon are below industry standard are inaccurate. Encore’s pay scale is on par with Jazz, Porter and Sky, neither of which have bridging pay and seniority.

We negotiated our first CBA this year at Encore and although it’s not perfect, we made great improvements and can build on that moving forward. I feel for the OTS Westjet pilots who are now behind everyone at Encore. That is a tough pill to swallow.

I believe this new PTA was a big win for our industry and shows consolidation and unity.

[cloak]

To be fair, this was well played by management and will make a good case study for managing labour relation in universities.

First dodging dividends, now controlled labour costs for foreseeable future, it is a good start for Onex, one handed over by pilots union itself.

For Encore, this may seem like a victory, but it will suppress wawcon for a very long time using WJ seniority as leverage, especially for the young cadets. It will also be used to drive down the competition even more for securing the RJ contract, which is almost guaranteed to go to Georgian.

For mainline, seemingly little extra money, which really isn't, and there will be meaningful expansion for WB, however I expect to see significant shrinkage in NB to reduce the total headcount to about 90% of Jan 2019.

It will allow Onex to execute its plans with very low labour costs, and multiple avenues for expansion. The 50 RJs likely soon will show up at Georgian, and Swoop will grow quickly to 30 tails. With costly stock options replaced by modest fixed costs and labour costs in check Onex will be "nimble" to likely engage in more acquisitions, prime targets being Sunwing, then Porter, which will complicate merging of the non DOH seniority lists, but strengthen Onex's position. The growing size of the various assets within Onex airlines, will bring stiff competition to Air Canada, which it "should" manage using good cash reserves and its own low labour costs and no pressure to raise labour costs, especially entry levels.

[nexus]

With only a 64% yes vote for the PTA it is clear that a lot of pilots at mainline are not happy about the PTA. In fact the amount that voted no is close to how many pilots are roughly at encore. Just thought this was an interesting fact.

To say that mainline won't get any OTS hires because of the PTA is wrong. They are currently hiring porter and pasco pilots with 2000 hours direct to mainline and not encore. The only way this agreement would be ideal is 100% flow, and the only way the company can do that is if they lower the captain requirements even lower at encore. Send these 2000 hour pilots to encore and upgrade them in 6 months. Then flow the captains you have now to mainline. However this will never happen. Flow is currently suspended at Encore till summer 2020.