One List

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Stratopaused
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Re: One List

Post by Stratopaused »

citizenbanana wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:04 pm Ridiculous as always stratopaused. The sky won't fall without the one list. Encore will keep operating the same as every other regional.
Management has never given an inch on anything with us. They fought us every step of the way with our contract negotiations, and they stretched out the implementation as long as they possibly could. So when Jeff Martin approached our MEC to tell us that there's a problem with our staffing levels and that they need to put together a retention plan to keep more people from leaving, I tend to believe him. If management is willingly coming forward and telling us that they're going to give us more to try to keep us from quitting, then something is seriously awry. Has WestJet ever voluntarily given its employees anything without a fight? That alone should tell you that there's an issue. If you still don't believe me, you can check on Westnet: in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!
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aerobod
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Re: One List

Post by aerobod »

Stratopaused wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:12 pm ...in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!
Typical days see around 300 Encore flights, so 20 cancellations in a given day would be 6.7% of flights.

The whole of August saw 3.11% of flights cancelled for Encore (9 flights per day on average), that compares with 3.09% for Jazz and 3.18% for Porter, so nothing particularly unusual in comparison to the competition. October was a good month for Encore with low cancellations of 1.17% (4 flights a day), compared with 2.90% for Jazz (18 flights a day) and 2.42% for Porter (4 flights a day).

Obviously all the cancellations are not just for crew related issues, but Encore doesn't have a particular problem with the number of cancellations when the numbers are crunched.
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tbayav8er
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Re: One List

Post by tbayav8er »

Encore reduced the flying schedule this month due to staffing issues. Not sure if that was the case in October as well. So obviously, considering the flying schedule has been reduced, you're not going to see a hike in cancellation percentages.

aerobod wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:56 pm
Stratopaused wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:12 pm ...in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!
Typical days see around 300 Encore flights, so 20 cancellations in a given day would be 6.7% of flights.

The whole of August saw 3.11% of flights cancelled for Encore (9 flights per day on average), that compares with 3.09% for Jazz and 3.18% for Porter, so nothing particularly unusual in comparison to the competition. October was a good month for Encore with low cancellations of 1.17% (4 flights a day), compared with 2.90% for Jazz (18 flights a day) and 2.42% for Porter (4 flights a day).

Obviously all the cancellations are not just for crew related issues, but Encore doesn't have a particular problem with the number of cancellations when the numbers are crunched.
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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

For Strat
Here check this out,

https://careers.aircanada.com

You'll never be happy here with that axe you have to grind.

Heres something to help with all that pity :

https://www.walmart.ca/en/pantry-househ ... sue/N-3104
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aerobod
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Re: One List

Post by aerobod »

tbayav8er wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:03 pm Encore reduced the flying schedule this month due to staffing issues. Not sure if that was the case in October as well. So obviously, considering the flying schedule has been reduced, you're not going to see a hike in cancellation percentages.

aerobod wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:56 pm
Stratopaused wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:12 pm ...in the last week there have been thirteen Encore flights cancelled due to lack of crew, compared to five on the jets in the same time period, despite the jet fleet being three times larger. That's nothing compared to the peak of the summer, when there were up to twenty flights being cancelled per day. Check August 23 if you don't believe me. That's 10% of our daily flights!
Typical days see around 300 Encore flights, so 20 cancellations in a given day would be 6.7% of flights.

The whole of August saw 3.11% of flights cancelled for Encore (9 flights per day on average), that compares with 3.09% for Jazz and 3.18% for Porter, so nothing particularly unusual in comparison to the competition. October was a good month for Encore with low cancellations of 1.17% (4 flights a day), compared with 2.90% for Jazz (18 flights a day) and 2.42% for Porter (4 flights a day).

Obviously all the cancellations are not just for crew related issues, but Encore doesn't have a particular problem with the number of cancellations when the numbers are crunched.
November and February are always low points in numbers of flights for the year, any significant issue is unlikely to show itself until April. The schedule for Nov will have been set in May, when the winter schedule was firmed up.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: One List

Post by yvrpilot82 »

StratoP just chill out. Alienating the WJ guys isn't the answer. Anyone at Encore who qualifies for AC has either gone, or it in the process of. For the rest, it's just treading water. If you're stuck with keener captains taxiing single engine on snow covered aprons to try and save a dime then I feel for you. Hopefully there's not many koolaid drinkers like that left anymore. They should give their heads a shake.
Really, Encore guys can just check-out now and see what happens. Use those sick days, give nothing extra, do your job safely and go home. Apply elsewhere and not worry. You're only a year in, that's nothing.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Strato,
I believe it’s safe to assume all mainline pilots do not care what you think about them, as you shouldn’t the opposite. This is only a job, family and friends should be you’re only real concern. Maybe if you realized this you wouldn’t be so angry.
Secondly you’re anger is directed in wrong direction. It is the company and only the company that is responsible for the failure of the one list. They can’t honestly expect and group to sign onto a “onelist” when that list and transfers is one way and only get to suit how the company wants them exactly. I know mainline pilots who would for sure bid into an encore captain spot if a true one list were to exist. However as previously stated many times in this thread a true one list would be far more costly than the first version.
Lastly the anger you’re showing towards the mainline group isn’t helping. Unless the onelist were to improve significantly before going to a vote I’d expect another vote would result in even more “no” votes solely due to the hostility the encore pilots have directed at the mainline group while they should be towards the company. There was much surprise and disappointment by the mainline group the onelist didn’t pass. A lot of mainline pilots threw up a stink in defence of the encore pilots. Many of those pilots have witnessed the reaction of the encore group and since changed their mind.
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plhought
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Re: One List

Post by plhought »

I've got no troops in this battle, but from what I gathered from my WestJet/Encore buds - and personal opinion - I tend to agree with Strato on this one.

I don't think Strato is upset personally with the WestJet guys as much as he is upset with the hypocrisy coming from all the stakeholders (ALPA, corporate, pilots, etc).

Not that long ago every WestJet guy on this forum was railing against NCPs diatribes about how the one-list would cease to exist - likely driving the poor guy to some kind of internet-psychosis (remember all the accounts he had???). Many swore and veneiatly argued the one-list would never go away.

WestJet and ALPA knew full well that any successful drive at WestJet would never be long term successful without a similar one at Encore (787s to Encore? ala Swiss Air handing it's 777 orders to the regional pilot group in 2015).

Both ALPA organizing groups dangled that carrot; that the only way to maintain the one-list was to come on board into the ALPA-fold.

Alas two years-ish later and it's basically dead for those on property post-May 2019.

It seems the WestJet pilot talking points about Encore now are "oh it's just a job - you're always going to have to take some punches kiddo - time to start recognizing you're just a number - realize this is simply a transaction blah blah blah"

Pretty different language from years ago when they we're asking help from their "brothers" at Encore asking them to respect the picket when a strike was imminent.

You know, Strato is the guy you want in your union leadership - not people who think the pilot labour movement is simply a numbers game of block times, per diems, credit hours and other hair-pulling complexities. I don't want a leadership that just argues "oh well Jazz doesn't have one list so it's not realistic here". I wouldn't give two rats-ass' about how other regional-mainline relationships work. I'd want the best for myself and my members.

It's pretty clear the WestJet and Encore MECs have thrown the one-list out the window, because "well, it's the company's fault".

You're telling me that two pilot groups, both represented by the same flippin' union, flying the same flippin' passengers, with the same flippin' paint-job, owned by the same flippin' company - can't put a some pressure on the company to make the one list work????
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One List

Post by Yycjetdriver »

plhought wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:31 pm I've got no troops in this battle, but from what I gathered from my WestJet/Encore buds - and personal opinion - I tend to agree with Strato on this one.
Anonymous person with second hand info on a public forum is telling me I’m wrong than it must be true. Oops my bad, I guess everything I’ve seen first hand must be less true than what your “Westjet/Encore buds” tell you. My bad I’ll change my opinion and side with strato right away.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

It would be incorrect and unfair to blame the WestJet pilot group for the failure of the one list. In fact it could be argued that the one list was started by them to compensate for poor initial conditions at Encore. It could also be argued that had the initial WAWCON at Encore was in line with the industry, a one list scheme would not have been necessary. Although for a period the one list leveraged pilots seniority at WestJet for recruitment at Encore, after certification and the continued divergence of experience level of the two companies, it cannot be continued. As it is with other major airlines, anything but BOTL creates problems and puts seniority out of step with DOH. This is a natural step in WestJet's evolution as it transitions into a legacy carrier which may have to attract experienced talent directly. Market forces too play a vital role and straying too far from other airlines in their relationship with and expectations at regionals would expose the group to more risk and cost.
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plhought
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Re: One List

Post by plhought »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:33 pm Anonymous person with second hand info on a public forum is telling me I’m wrong than it must be true. Oops my bad, I guess everything I’ve seen first hand must be less true than what your “Westjet/Encore buds” tell you. My bad I’ll change my opinion and side with strato right away.
I'm didn't say anyone is outright wrong - just that I'm more impressed with Strato's response than the others on this forum. My personal opinion. From the outside looking in. That's all.

I didn't argue what anyone had seen or stated "first hand" - certainly it can't be as dramatic as the recent "Jump Seat Wars" down in the States??

I'm not that anonymous - first name's Patrick, throw in a couple letters out of my user name not hard to figure out :P

Okay, I'll throw a crazy idea out there - using my Swiss example again. 2018 all the pilot groups harmonized after negots with the mother company. Swiss folded up its "regional" (Swiss 'Global') subsidiary and put it all under one roof.

Maybe 5 years or so something along the lines at WestJet? The Encore AMO is already gone in a bit. The other bits of the company already work out of the campus I assume.

Every new hire starts day one on the Q/Future-Embraer/Mitsu-CRJ/Whateverplane then moves up? That would certainly shake-up the Labour status-qou in Canadian aviation.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

cloak wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:12 pmAlthough for a period the one list leveraged pilots seniority at WestJet for recruitment at Encore, after certification and the continued divergence of experience level of the two companies, it cannot be continued.
It cannot be continued?

The majority of people entering mainline off the street have less experience than the captains who are flowing up from Encore. The guys flowing from Encore already have spent years flying the same paint, same passengers, and same common goal as our mainline counterparts.

The only difference between the mainline guys and the Encore guys is that Encore is still willing to support mainline. It seems that the comradery only goes one way now.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

That's fine, however it could be argued that it is a personal choice and pilots can go to WestJet directly, or Encore, Link or other regionals WestJet may start and flow from there, but to the BOTL. It can be appreciated that there's no good reason for WestJet pilots to leverage their seniority to recruit for Encore or other regionals, nor to pioneer a revolutionary industry-leading deal for the regionals! If it's not done elsewhere, it's for good reasons. It's called market forces. In fact it could be argued that without a one list scheme at start, Encore WAWCON would be much closer to market levels and would help lift the industry as a whole. A one list scheme creates an imbalance in the industry.
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

In other words, no good reasons to offer, only more rude comments or emotional retorts.
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lostaviator
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Re: One List

Post by lostaviator »

plausiblyannonymous wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:59 am That's a load of horse crap. You are arguing that you are right to stab your coworkers in the back because others do it.

It's the age old, if your friend jumped off a bridge, would you?
I fail to see how anyone is stabbing you in the back or how comradely only goes one way now. The only thing going one way was the proposed Transfer MOA.

We had a "One List" that an overwhelming majority of pilots voted Yes to in 2014.

Fast forward, the year is 2018/2019. 2 ALPA MEC's, WJ, Encore and Swoop sit down and dissolve the "One List" and spit something out called the "Pilot Transfer Agreement" with very different verbiage than the original "one list". The WJ pilots were concerned about the language so voted no.

WJ pilots never voted to eliminate the "One List". A $hitty new version was forced on us to vote for and we didn't like it. Why would we vote for something that is a step backwards? You don't have to vote yes to something the first time. A lesson I hope Encore has learned going forward. You voted on a backwards contract with no flow language.

Apparently the language has been modified and the next vote will start in a few weeks. Of course, they went and F'd it up another way now. We will see.
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George Taylor
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Re: One List

Post by George Taylor »

Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
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cloak
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Re: One List

Post by cloak »

No likely it won't; likely there will be more fall-out too. Likely that puts pressure on WAWCON everywhere...
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tps8903
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Re: One List

Post by tps8903 »

George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
Why?
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plausiblyannonymous
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Re: One List

Post by plausiblyannonymous »

tps8903 wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:55 am
George Taylor wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:37 am Theres no way the new agreement is going to pass.
Why?
Because the mainline guys really want to stick it to the company by throwing all of Encore under the bus.

They haven't seen the offer and they don't care to. They are just looking for the easiest group to take it out on.
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