One List

[George Taylor]

I find it annoying when Encore pilots use the argument, that if the PTA fails, they'll all goto SWOOP and screw the WJ pilots. Don't the same concerns about staffing levels at Encore come into play. The point being WestJet is ignoring the flow from Encore to mainline now. So, WestJet would decimate Encore to fill SWOOP planes? Who knows, but I doubt it. Some bean counter will make the call on that one. And all the OTS hires at Swoop will step over you.
The Encore guys that are so emotional and post on here should really look in the mirror. It's been said many time before, you, the Encore pilot that voted on a CBA that didn't capture flow/PTA were duped. Your reps should never have presented that. Although there has been some good communication about the PTA currently being voted on, it was really sleazy of management to tie WJ pilots compensation to the Encore PTA. Same old dirty tricks from a horrible management team.
It will be an interesting outcome to see how this vote goes. For all the Encore folks that still continue to think it's the bad, mean, and greedy WestJet pilots ruining your flow and seniority , it's NOT. Buck stops with you! You voted in your CBA.
This big ball of shit keeps rolling down the hill, and getting bigger, and bigger, and we're all getting rolled into it.

[Gerry Schwartz]

I find it annoying when Encore pilots use the argument, that if the PTA fails, they'll all goto SWOOP and screw the WJ pilots. Don't the same concerns about staffing levels at Encore come into play. The point being WestJet is ignoring the flow from Encore to mainline now. So, WestJet would decimate Encore to fill SWOOP planes? Who knows, but I doubt it. Some bean counter will make the call on that one.

I find it annoying that my colleagues think that if this PTA fails everything will stay status quo. IT WON'T!!! I don't work at Encore and I AM saying that if the PTA fails we at WJ will face challenges.The company will take the $10-20 million dollars in increased value that they are offering us for our stock options and find other places to use it for pilot staffing. Some bean counter WILL make the call on that one. Do you honestly think it will be in favour of WJ pilots? Would it be Swoop? Encore? Link? who knows, but I've just outlined the other options they have without needing to include us, 71 regional or Swoop aircraft!!!

I haven't seen too many 'emotional' Encore pilots posting but I've only been reading this thread to deal with my WJ colleagues, presumably newer OTS guys trying to make up BS arguments to make themselves feel justified in voting something solely for their own benefit or because they're pissed off at the company. It'll come back to bite us in the ass.

[elite]

Please accept my apology for the insult. I was back from a red-eye and frustrated.....

Apology acepted, thank you. There is a different perspective.

The wawcon in the U.S improved because of Colgan crash which brought about changes from the Congrass regarding license requirements. It had nothing to do with deregulation, pilot solidarity, or union work. In fact ALPA was all too happy to represent the folks that were making 20k in the regionals.

Pilots may as well accept what is in the CBAs, as things that will happen. That is to say including other things at Swoop, there will be up to 50 RJs outside WJ. If it's in the CBA, it's already been priced in by Onex. So Encore folks threatening WJ folks has zero value. It is going to happen and my guess is depending on the kind of reaction Encore pilots show if the vote is rejected, those RJs may or may not go to them. It is possible that Onex will want to diversify its regional assets anyway.

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

If one looks at this deal without thinking about individuals that are attached to it and judges it by itself, it becomes clear, for reasons mentioned, that it is not good for the industry and the pilots and will vote it down.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.

[sarg]

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.

You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.

[plausiblyannonymous]

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.

You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.

So, basically what you are saying is that if Encore gets the PTA, new hires at mainline will be pissed off that people who were hired at the company before them are more senior than them?

[George Taylor]

It's not the same company, and it's two different bargaining units.

[citizenbanana]

Encore and WestJet are seperate companies.

[Yycjetdriver]

And voting for the one list will be bad for wawcon because the company can leverage that to pay Encore pilots less. In the long run though, it will tie the company's hands in recruitment and create a seniority that is not in line with experience. It will be bad even for Encore guys because even though they are placed ahead of WJ guys that are currently flying the jets, and let's face it, which pilot doesn't like that, it will limit their flow to 90 per year and slow their flow and career progress. Due to operational ristrictions, the company will delay their flow saying not to worry, you already got your number. But they won't start their YOS. In essence the company is giving from pilot seniority, which doesn't belong to it, instead of paying them.

At the same time, even voting the one list down doesn't mean no flow for Encore, it just means to the BOTL like all other ALPA-represented airlines. My understanding is that they have guaranteed flow and top up pay, which is better than most other airlines.

You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.

So, basically what you are saying is that if Encore gets the PTA, new hires at mainline will be pissed off that people who were hired at the company before them are more senior than them?

When they say “Westjet group of COMPANIES” in job adds, company website, pilot handbook and employment contracts they really mean it.

[Gerry Schwartz]

The wawcon in the U.S improved because of Colgan crash which brought about changes from the Congrass regarding license requirements. It had nothing to do with deregulation, pilot solidarity, or union work. In fact ALPA was all too happy to represent the folks that were making 20k in the regionals.

There's a great book called Hard Landing: The Epic Contest for Power and Profits That Plunged the Airlines into Chaos by Thomas Petzinger, Jr. https://books.google.ca/books?id=GF5GZa ... r_versions It provides a very interesting and detailed history about pilot/union relations as well as the growth of regional airlines and the impact deregulation has had on the industry. In particular, you'll see repeating history of how, with the separation of mainline and regional flying, airlines are able to whipsaw business. It's just a start, but would really help you understand the complexities of how we got here today.

While I agree, the unfortunate Colgan crash and the public response thereafter was a factor for today's pilot staffing issues and increased WAWCON's in the US. The primary factor is demographics and supply/demand. Major airlines are facing more retirements in the next ten years than there currently are pilots flying at all the regionals combined.

Without the proper historical understanding of how the Industry got to the position it was in after 3407, trying to dispute your claims is really like trying to argue with someone that the moon landing was faked. They take the position because of a certain shadow in the black and white film footage while they complete ignore the history of the space race and NASA development altogether and that there were tens of thousands of people directly involved in the launches.

While I do query your 'standing on the sidelines' status as you indicate you have read both contracts, it is unfortunately clear that you do not have a full grasp of the situation.

[elite]

You have that right the flow will be limited to the max 90/year, while the pilot supply is tight. In the meantime 300+ will be hired this year and probably 200+ next year meaning 300+ OTS pilots that will be disadvantaged by the PTA continuing, especially if the next CBA goes to full seniority bidding.

If the PTA passes I predict that it will continue to be a sore point and a divisive issue for years to come and most likely an item that continues to be brought up at LEC meetings to force cancelation.

Contrast that with Encore that will quite likely be hiring cadets next year. Do the cadets really need to be on WestJet's seniority list to be hired at Encore!? This PTA will be a disaster if passed.

Although seemingly the company wins, because it will continue to be able to attract pilots to Encore at below industry level wages, in the long run it will create such a headache for itself by helping create a seniority list that is NOT in line with experience. It will create years of problem. It will also find recruitment at mainline very difficult with the elephant of seniority in the room and the prospect of very long years to upgrade. Why would anyone with experience want to come to WestJet and sit behind 600 cadets (no offense) when they have so many choices? So the company will lose in the long run.

Encore pilots also seemingly win to get a seniority number at another company, but will take much longer to actually get there and start their years of service and higher pay. At a rate of maximum 90 per year it will take the last guy over 6 or 7 years to get to WestJet! Then they'll have seniority over the folks that have actually been working there all these years, but years behind them in pay! More senior to bid for upgrade, but don't have the skills and experience. It will be problematic.

WestJet pilots will not only retard the progress of the FOs they fly with right now to the benefit of pilots in another company, they will help lower the industry standard in general by approving this PTA. What do WestJet pilots get out of this that wasn't already theirs?!!

[cloak]

I believe that this issue requires a fresh approach.

The reasons for which Encore was created as a separate company have not changed, perhaps even strengthened with Onex. And being two separate companies and bargaining units, and the challenges and divergence of the recruitments will make reserved seniority for Encore pilots at WestJet, such as this proposed PTA, very problematic and contentious going forward. Therefore, I believe that it will behoove all parties, corporation, WS/WO MEC, and EN MEC, to abandon this PTA and instead find ways to establish:

1- 100% flow for Encore pilots or bypass pay and seniority for every pilot the company has to hire directly for operational reasons.
2- Full (settle on portion) years of service for Encore pilots. Another option would be a bonus like most U.S carriers
3- Seniority as date of hire into WestJet to BOTL, which is in line with experience in the company.
4- Guaranteed flow for Encore pilots.

Although given that Encore will be hiring Cadets soon, the company would be wise to agree to grandfather guaranteed flow for the existing Encore pilots, but implement second interview for new-hires to ensure their suitability.

That will be a viable and lasting solution.

[Gerry Schwartz]

.

[elite]

Ok, now you're just trying to suck and blow at the same time.
....
90% of the Encore pilots on property had a seniority number at WestJet. This was promised to them as part of an employment contract and it was IN the previous contract. It was further promised by our MEC. And even after the failed LOA vote in May, it was promised again...

... Unlike this alternate reality that you seem to be living in, pretty much all of the Encore Captains on property (and few I'm really good friends with)...
Next you're basically pulling numbers out of your ass - WTF - 600 Cadets!!...

Perhaps another red-eye flight for you?!!

Stop disrespecting people and learn how to advocate for your position without attacking and insulting others. Like your handle for instance!

And it is a figure of speech. If they are hiring cadets and continue to expand Encore (provisions of CBA which by the way is a public document) it won't be long before there are a few hundred cadets at Encore. Why do those cadets (whatever the number) need to be put on WestJet's seniority list? Air Canada doesn't do that. Air Canada doesn't even guarantee their flow. Why should WestJet be so desperate?

And why should they be grandfathered? The conditions of employment for those Encore pilots changed with certification, so it did for WestJet pilots. Why is it more important to protect them at all costs?

As for "YOUR" stock options, not to worry it is enshrined in the CBA (again a public document) that it has to replaced by another method of equal value. And agreements such as this, mask the real pilot shortage by supplying unlimited number of cadets through the system, so WAWCON not only at Encore but also at WestJet won't have to improve anytime soon.

However, your comments raise a question: Why is "YOUR" MEC making promises to pilots in another bargaining unit and advocating for them? Especially when it directly harms the careers of its own members that are paying dues? Frankly I'm surprised some have not been recalled yet!

[Gerry Schwartz]

voting closed

[elite]

...I'm sure you're a nice young fellow/lady...

Don't need your patronizing ace! Although I do feel very young after decades of flying around the world, and serving as union executive at times. Good luck with your flow!

[hurtin'albertan]

Perhaps another red-eye flight for you?!!

Stop disrespecting people and learn how to advocate for your position without attacking and insulting others. Like your handle for instance!

Nope, this time my response wasn't based on being fatigued but rather the frustration due to the absolutely non-nonsensical idiotic nature of your argument. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you're a nice young fellow/lady and we'd get along great if we were on a pairing, but your argument lacks any type of coherent reasoning, it really is like arguing with someone about the moon landing.

However, against my better judgment, I will comment on each of your rebuttal comments.

As for "YOUR" stock options, not to worry it is enshrined in the CBA (again a public document) that it has to replaced by another method of equal value. And agreements such as this, mask the real pilot shortage by supplying unlimited number of cadets through the system, so WAWCON not only at Encore but also at WestJet won't have to improved anytime soon.

You don't understand how stock options are valued. Because stock options are a risk related investment, the value that the stock option is granted doesn't translate into what they would be worth as cash. Case in point, prior to being purchased by Onex, we had an choice to either take the value of the option or a significantly lower (by thousands of dollars) guaranteed cash payout value. As part of the PTA negotiations, the MEC was able to negotiate a significantly higher full value for the cash value of our stock options. We are getting MORE than what we are entitled to in the CBA. It is a benefit for the WJ pilots in the range of $10-$20 million over the life of our contract. That is definitely MORE than we were already entitled to. SO, while there IS a discussion as to whether that increased compensation is worth it for some pilots to vote for the PTA (some feel they want more), to suggest that "we are already owed that value" OR "it's a method of equal value" is simply WRONG.

And it is a figure of speech. If they are hiring cadets and continue to expand Encore (provisions of CBA which by the way is a public document) it won't be long before there are a few hundred cadets at Encore. Why do those cadets (whatever the number) need to be put on WestJet's seniority list? Air Canada doesn't do that. Air Canada doesn't even guarantee their flow. Why should WestJet be so desperate?

Hyperbole is a figure of speech. Suggesting that there will be 600 cadets at a 500 pilot airline is an overactive imagination. Regardless, let's think about who actually transfers to WestJet. It's not the new FOs, it's the Captains that have been on the Q for years and have thousands of overs on a 705 machine now.

And comparing to Air Canada is a moot endeavour. It's not like Encore pilots want something they never had, unlike Jazz/GGN/Sky Encore pilots had seniority transfer.

And why should they be grandfathered? The conditions of employment for those Encore pilots changed with certification, so it did for WestJet pilots. Why is it more important to protect them at all costs?

However, your comments raise a question: Why is "YOUR" MEC making promises to pilots in another bargaining unit and advocating for them? Especially when it directly harms the careers of its own members that are paying dues? Frankly I'm surprised some have not been recalled yet!

So again, you do not understand how union representation works and seem to not understand the situation of both how we got here and what will happen if we screw over the Encore pilots.

My MEC was making promises based on the mandate given to them by the majority of WJ pilots. Through multiple surveys, polls and discussions, our MEC has been given a mandate that supports seniority transfer for the Encore pilots. Yes, some vocal folks are against it, but the MEC has done its research to find that the majority of WJ pilots are in favour of it in some form or another. That is the information "promises" that were made. As a result, many Encore pilots such as a few really good friends of mine, decided to remain at Encore.

I love how folks shout out "recall" when they don't even know the mechanism to have an LEC or MEC member recalled.

No one has said "protect them at all costs" - again, that's an improper use of hyperbole. However, in this situation, there are reasons on the opposite end of the spectrum as to why we should vote YES for this PTA and restore the previous seniority transfer provisions that the Encore pilots had. I repeat, this isn't 'giving' them something new.

As discussed above, almost all of the current Encore Captains were hired at a time when WJ was not doing much hiring. Many of my friends had applied to WestJet and were then asked if they would be willing to go to Encore as a DEC or a quick upgrade FO but they would get seniority at WestJet. They made important life decisions based on this. They had the seniority number given to them. All OTS hires that came to WJ between 2013 and May 14, 2019 knew that seniority transfer was part of the deal at WJ. To then say "nah, I think it's in my own self interest to now take that away from Encore pilots" is pretty shallow. It's like the home owner buying a house at the end of the runway of an airport that's been there for decades only to then start complaining about the airplane noise and try and get the airport shut down. It's dirty and, in my opinion, unethical. (Now to be clear, I also know plenty OTS hires who want seniority transfer and understand what they signed up for - I am by NO means saying all OTS folks want this or are unethical).

But, let's take ethics out of it. Who cares right? Everyone should just do what's best for them. F&%k the other guys!

What do you think Encore pilots will do if WE screw them again? Do you think they'll just say "aw shucks, I wish those awesome jet pilots would have been nicer to me? They're right, those new 2000 hour OTS pilots definitely are more skilled than me with my 5000 Hours + PIC Q time."

NO! Of course not - they'll either bail somewhere else or give their MEC a mandate to negotiate against the position of WJ pilots. There is a significant amount of growth opportunity that they can exploit that would reduce our career options at WJ.

The fact of the matter is I want my namesake (who I respect and think is a shrewd business man btw) to sign off on more 787s for us. The more growth at the high end of our airline the better it is for all of our career growth. They need the Qs to fill the 787s though. Do you really think there's a market just from Calgary to do YYC to FCO next summer? No, a huge percentage of those passengers are coming to YYC on the Qs and transferring to the wide bodies. We are at a critical time in our growth at WJ yet already having some challenges staffing Encore. A NO vote would cripple them. Would they raise the WAWCON at Encore in the short term, maybe. But why would WJ/Onex take a risk of buying 10 more 787s when a reliable regional feed is in question? Next, the Swoop president commented last week that he could see the ULCC market in Canada being 30-50 aircraft. Suddenly you have dozens of Encore FOs going - "hey, Swoop seems like a good option now".

Alright I think that's enough for me. There's a reason I only previously read posts and didn't post. Again, I'm sorry if you felt insulted. I wasn't insulting you personally, just your sh*tty arguments. This vote has pretty significant consequences on my career progression and to have someone "on the sidelines" making nonsensical arguments with no repercussions to him or herself gets me extremely frustrated. Not only does this vote have the potential of literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in career earnings for my friends at Encore, it has significant indirect consequences of whether I'll actually get to be a 787 Capt during my time at WJ.

The last few years have been difficult and frustrating. The company has been incredibly stubborn and our previous Execs seemed to go out of their way to simply piss off the pilots. We're slowly making the turn around. This PTA won't solve everything, but it gets the pilot groups pulling in the same direction again. This is key. So if you are on the sidelines, you should think twice before you start getting upset when I tell you that you don't know what you're talking about.

Nailed it.

[elite]

Some seem to not truly understand the meaning of whipsaw effect in the context of airlines.

Encore has had the greatest whipsaw effect on WestJet. There are hardly any flights in the Eastern or Western triangle that are on WestJet anymore. Air Canada operates some flights on wide body aircraft, meanwhile the only choice on WestJet group is a noisy Dash8 most times. While their MEC was so focused on Swoop, it lost another 50 tails to Encore or another airline like it.

What impact would this PTA have on pay at Encore or those 50 RJs? Instead of forcing the airline to pay industry wawcon for Encore and make it less attractive for them to take jobs away from mainline, this PTA will all but guarantee those 50 jets end-up at Encore. Why wouldn't they want to put them there, pay them a fraction of industry standard, and give them WestJet seniority numbers to boot too! Yes nailed it, rock on boys!!

[sstaurus]

Well if you vote this down, any money that would have been spent at mainline (read option value) will get sent to Encore instead. What a nice gift for the Encore pilots... I knew you OTS guys were really a bunch of softies concerned for the well being of others!

[mel gibson]

Careers section of,

Aircanada.com

We need all of you.

[Gerry Schwartz]

.