Swoop Terrain Warning

[lostaviator]

The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.

Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...

There's a significant amount of 737 experience at CAE. I'd say they have a pretty good qualification to assess.

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

The thing about CAE is their guys have operated 737's for multiple operators and in accordance with Boeing SOP and have seen best practices. Many Westjet pilots have not operated jets anywhere other than WJ and don't use Boeing SOP and are convinced that Westjet way is the way to operate a 737. Westjet flight ops is much like Air Canada and is welded to their way of doing things which makes it hard to change to best practice.

Minus AC's hard on for messing around in SFO, we (AC and WJ) are two of the safest operators in the world. Who cares if our SOP's vary a little bit from Boeing? Our regulatory body has approved every document we use to date and they cause very little issues. Yes, I agree they need to be tidied up, but they are far from troublesome.

SOP's aside, the larger problem is the growing number of stories coming from our pink cousin that paint a horrifying picture of the complete disregard for basic aircraft operations (set DCT through the mountain), and federal laws. (20 hour duty day anyone???)

[CaptainHaddock]

The SOP’s at Swoop are very similar to WJ’s and hopefully the new DFO doesn’t mess with it. I understand the desire to align to the Boeing ones, but Swoop is embedded (as extremely frustrating as that is) in the ‘WJ Group’. So Encore pilots flow into Swoop, then into WJ when they can hold it. Encore and WJ SOP’s ARE aligned-so it would be pretty foolish to operate 170 aircraft under one set of SOP’S, but operate 10 aircraft differently.

[cloak]

Wow, this thread is so unprofessional-not to mention possibly exposing this site legally-to have started so recklessly based on a conversation just heard on the radio! And to be continued by others. Imagine the possible posts after the Transat glider, or Air Canada crash in YHZ or near miss in SFO, and many more, and clearly those would have been more warranted considering their outcome! Careful, karma could be a beach!

[KAG]

People need to understand that pretty much nobody at Swoop these days spent a single hour flying a WJ aircraft with WJ crews from WJ training/indoc. The results are night and day. Swoop is now just filled with low time people willing to slave themselves out and jump the queue or the loser cast-offs from other airlines.

Because a pilot flew at Westjet and had Westjet training does not make him immune (SXM?) Glass houses and all that

To suggest that somehow pilot A is somehow better than pilot B because he flew a Westjet aircraft is a bit ridiculous.

Yes, I'll say exactly that. The crews at swoop (and some on your course) were the dregs, the guys who couldn't upgrade, weak pilots. Not all, I know you yourself have good experience (If not poor choices in companies) but by and large Swoop is a dumpster fire.
I know glass houses, and shit happens. But swoops experience level is very low.
Furthermore the stories I'm hearing from pilots returning are frankly terrifying.

[hurtin'albertan]

The Westjet SOP's that Swoop use are probably the biggest complaint i hear from CAE instructors. They contradict the FCOM and FCTM and are a long way from the Boeing SOP that other 737 operators in Canada use.

Examples?

Like you and CAE instructors are the authority on flying the 737...

Things like setting field elevation in the MCP prior to starting a VNAV approach, not applying the Adverse Weather FCOM guidance such as wing anti ice on the ground when not taking type 4 in icing conditions, no engine runups in icing conditions etc.

You don't know WJ SOPs if you are using these as examples since you are wrong on all three counts, so next time, do a bit more research.

[jjj]

To suggest that WJ's SOPs are not evolved or do not evolve is far from the truth. Sure they lack in some ways and there still lingers a few things that are a throwback to the days of the rusty old 200.

What is lost on some of the dummies like Tbalyx is that a professional pilot knows that SOPs have not so much to do with doing things the very best way but more importantly a common way. Thats how we successfully pair up almost any Captain with any FO and usually have a very successful outcome.

The brainiacs at SWOOP that try to do things their own way under the guise of "best practices" are a hazard and lack professionalism.

If i move over to AC to fly one of their Boeings i would no doubt come across a procedure that i dislike. Nevertheless I get it and I would simply do what is requested of me. It's simple and it's safe.

I cast no stones at SWOOP for the alleged incident because of the vacuum of information.

As a betting man - I expect more of this to come.

Cheers and Happy Ferstivus!

[Tacoma]

Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read

Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read

Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.

Keeps getting removed from the forum because the guy basically doxxes himself. It’s out there on the internet though if you look hard enough.

[losercruiser]

Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read

Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.

Keeps getting removed from the forum because the guy basically doxxes himself. It’s out there on the internet though if you look hard enough.

The problem is someone put his full name. The Yammer post only had his first name

Leave the last names out of it and it's not hard for someone to google PLEASE KEEP NAMES OUT OF THIS

[FL-280]

Impressive career of jumping from operator to operator.... and to say this guy was a training captain hahaha

[skyhighh]

Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.

[digits_]

Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.

Why is that a bad thing? If more pilots were to attempt that you would see wages go up pretty quickly...

[indieadventurer]

Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.

What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?

We really need to get our heads out of the sand about what we’re worth and realize how seniority ruins our free market ability to drive wages higher being slaves to one company.

[losercruiser]

Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.

What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?

Yes.

[7ECA]

Back to the incident at hand, the CADOR was posted.

A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ ... d2019P3452

[.80@410]

Wow, this thread is so unprofessional-not to mention possibly exposing this site legally-to have started so recklessly based on a conversation just heard on the radio! And to be continued by others. Imagine the possible posts after the Transat glider, or Air Canada crash in YHZ or near miss in SFO, and many more, and clearly those would have been more warranted considering their outcome! Careful, karma could be a beach!

Typical ivory -tower koolaid - drinking reply . “ nothing to see here .. and if you see anything you better NOT see anything if you know what’s good for you “

Interesting how everyone ignored you and kept on discussing. Guess the propaganda is getting weak

[skyhighh]

If you want to improve the industry working conditions and pay, you don't go to Swoop, period. Swoop should have been fought to be kept under the WJ contract but you can't do that if you have "idiots" (I could use many other words) that are willing to step on everyone in order to get a couple extra bucks and 4 bars. If these people had waited Swoop would have been under a way better contract.
So instead of people talking about how bad Swoop is... Let's talk about the reason it is that bad.... The pilots.
And I have no sympathy for pilots throwing their FOs under the bus for not extending their day especially for a company that don't care for their pilots.

[lostaviator]

Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....

December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.

December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).

[tbayav8er]

Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....

December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.

December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).

I believe the second one (December 18) is the one the original poster was referring to. The tracking on that STAR is especially important as it brings you safely around a couple of pretty big hills. Merry Christmas everyone, and stay safe out there!

[KAG]

Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.

What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?

We really need to get our heads out of the sand about what we’re worth and realize how seniority ruins our free market ability to drive wages higher being slaves to one company.

I agree with this. Many other trades/professions pay for experience, ours does not (at least at major airlines). Hopefully that changes as we sink further into the experience swamp.

Merry Christmas all