Swoop Terrain Warning
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
To suggest that WJ's SOPs are not evolved or do not evolve is far from the truth. Sure they lack in some ways and there still lingers a few things that are a throwback to the days of the rusty old 200.
What is lost on some of the dummies like Tbalyx is that a professional pilot knows that SOPs have not so much to do with doing things the very best way but more importantly a common way. Thats how we successfully pair up almost any Captain with any FO and usually have a very successful outcome.
The brainiacs at SWOOP that try to do things their own way under the guise of "best practices" are a hazard and lack professionalism.
If i move over to AC to fly one of their Boeings i would no doubt come across a procedure that i dislike. Nevertheless I get it and I would simply do what is requested of me. It's simple and it's safe.
I cast no stones at SWOOP for the alleged incident because of the vacuum of information.
As a betting man - I expect more of this to come.
Cheers and Happy Ferstivus!
What is lost on some of the dummies like Tbalyx is that a professional pilot knows that SOPs have not so much to do with doing things the very best way but more importantly a common way. Thats how we successfully pair up almost any Captain with any FO and usually have a very successful outcome.
The brainiacs at SWOOP that try to do things their own way under the guise of "best practices" are a hazard and lack professionalism.
If i move over to AC to fly one of their Boeings i would no doubt come across a procedure that i dislike. Nevertheless I get it and I would simply do what is requested of me. It's simple and it's safe.
I cast no stones at SWOOP for the alleged incident because of the vacuum of information.
As a betting man - I expect more of this to come.
Cheers and Happy Ferstivus!
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Keeps getting removed from the forum because the guy basically doxxes himself. It’s out there on the internet though if you look hard enough.Tacoma wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:02 am Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
The problem is someone put his full name. The Yammer post only had his first namePostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:36 pmKeeps getting removed from the forum because the guy basically doxxes himself. It’s out there on the internet though if you look hard enough.Tacoma wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:02 am Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read
PostmasterGeneral wrote: ↑Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
Leave the last names out of it and it's not hard for someone to google PLEASE KEEP NAMES OUT OF THIS
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Impressive career of jumping from operator to operator.... and to say this guy was a training captain hahaha
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Why is that a bad thing? If more pilots were to attempt that you would see wages go up pretty quickly...skyhighh wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?skyhighh wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
We really need to get our heads out of the sand about what we’re worth and realize how seniority ruins our free market ability to drive wages higher being slaves to one company.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Yes.indieadventurer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:32 amWhat’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?skyhighh wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Back to the incident at hand, the CADOR was posted.
https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ ... d2019P3452A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Typical ivory -tower koolaid - drinking reply . “ nothing to see here .. and if you see anything you better NOT see anything if you know what’s good for you “cloak wrote: ↑Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:05 am Wow, this thread is so unprofessional-not to mention possibly exposing this site legally-to have started so recklessly based on a conversation just heard on the radio! And to be continued by others. Imagine the possible posts after the Transat glider, or Air Canada crash in YHZ or near miss in SFO, and many more, and clearly those would have been more warranted considering their outcome! Careful, karma could be a beach!
Interesting how everyone ignored you and kept on discussing. Guess the propaganda is getting weak
Just callin it like it is.
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
If you want to improve the industry working conditions and pay, you don't go to Swoop, period. Swoop should have been fought to be kept under the WJ contract but you can't do that if you have "idiots" (I could use many other words) that are willing to step on everyone in order to get a couple extra bucks and 4 bars. If these people had waited Swoop would have been under a way better contract.
So instead of people talking about how bad Swoop is... Let's talk about the reason it is that bad.... The pilots.
And I have no sympathy for pilots throwing their FOs under the bus for not extending their day especially for a company that don't care for their pilots.
So instead of people talking about how bad Swoop is... Let's talk about the reason it is that bad.... The pilots.
And I have no sympathy for pilots throwing their FOs under the bus for not extending their day especially for a company that don't care for their pilots.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....
December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.
December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).
December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.
December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
I believe the second one (December 18) is the one the original poster was referring to. The tracking on that STAR is especially important as it brings you safely around a couple of pretty big hills. Merry Christmas everyone, and stay safe out there!lostaviator wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:32 am Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....
December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.
December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).
Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
I agree with this. Many other trades/professions pay for experience, ours does not (at least at major airlines). Hopefully that changes as we sink further into the experience swamp.indieadventurer wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:32 amWhat’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?skyhighh wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
We really need to get our heads out of the sand about what we’re worth and realize how seniority ruins our free market ability to drive wages higher being slaves to one company.
Merry Christmas all
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
One thing that struck me looking at the Abbotsford plates (Jeppesen).
SID and STAR plates do not have an MSA on them or a terrain map showing the highest elevation. This is now standard on Jeppesen plates.
All that is listed is a 100nm safe altitude.
This is a serious safety deficiency imho.
SID and STAR plates do not have an MSA on them or a terrain map showing the highest elevation. This is now standard on Jeppesen plates.
All that is listed is a 100nm safe altitude.
This is a serious safety deficiency imho.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Which Jepp plates are you looking at? They all have the MSA box on my set.Eric Janson wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:20 am One thing that struck me looking at the Abbotsford plates (Jeppesen).
SID and STAR plates do not have an MSA on them or a terrain map showing the highest elevation. This is now standard on Jeppesen plates.
All that is listed is a 100nm safe altitude.
This is a serious safety deficiency imho.
In the case of the custom RNP's, sector altitudes are not even really needed, because they were not designed to be a DCT IAF approach. The routing notes on both RNP's state how to connect and fly the approach from the STAR. The At or above altitudes provide terrain guidance all the way down.
Edit
Sorry, I misread your post (speed reading before coffee) and thought you were writing about the Jepp Approach plates.
I think Jepp is in the process of upgrading their plates with colour terrain profiles etc, but I think the 100 nm safe is the standard on most charts. I don't think I have ever seen 25 MSA's published on STARS or SIDS.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
The Cadors waters it down a bit, considering it was the controller who "levelled the aircraft off" by repeatedly calling them and instructing them to climb. Hacking HE, and KEKPO off the star is a bad idea. There's a reason ATC always instructs you to cross KEKPO at 9000' even though it a hard altitude on the star.lostaviator wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:32 am Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....
December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.
...
Eric is right, there's no terrain on the jepp star 10-2, and it's not geo synchronized so own ship doesn't display . There's a 100 nm safe and the crossing restrictions and that's it.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
If you really need to know 25nm safe just look at the approach plate.
100nm safe is all you need for a STAR as long as you follow the STAR!
You can't just cut off sections as you please, it's not the same as ATC telling you to go DCT GOREG because you are radar controlled at that point and THEY take responsibility for terrain clearance.
Man fucking Swoop. Every time I drive by YXX on that side road and see those puke planes I roll my eyes and cry a little bit about the state of our profession in Canada.
100nm safe is all you need for a STAR as long as you follow the STAR!
You can't just cut off sections as you please, it's not the same as ATC telling you to go DCT GOREG because you are radar controlled at that point and THEY take responsibility for terrain clearance.
Man fucking Swoop. Every time I drive by YXX on that side road and see those puke planes I roll my eyes and cry a little bit about the state of our profession in Canada.
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning
Only time atc takes terrain clearance is if you’re on a radar vector ie flying an assigned heading. Accepting direct to a fix it’s up to you.losercruiser wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:52 pm If you really need to know 25nm safe just look at the approach plate.
100nm safe is all you need for a STAR as long as you follow the STAR!
You can't just cut off sections as you please, it's not the same as ATC telling you to go DCT GOREG because you are radar controlled at that point and THEY take responsibility for terrain clearance.
Man fucking Swoop. Every time I drive by YXX on that side road and see those puke planes I roll my eyes and cry a little bit about the state of our profession in Canada.