Swoop Terrain Warning

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jjj
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by jjj »

To suggest that WJ's SOPs are not evolved or do not evolve is far from the truth. Sure they lack in some ways and there still lingers a few things that are a throwback to the days of the rusty old 200.

What is lost on some of the dummies like Tbalyx is that a professional pilot knows that SOPs have not so much to do with doing things the very best way but more importantly a common way. Thats how we successfully pair up almost any Captain with any FO and usually have a very successful outcome.

The brainiacs at SWOOP that try to do things their own way under the guise of "best practices" are a hazard and lack professionalism.

If i move over to AC to fly one of their Boeings i would no doubt come across a procedure that i dislike. Nevertheless I get it and I would simply do what is requested of me. It's simple and it's safe.

I cast no stones at SWOOP for the alleged incident because of the vacuum of information.

As a betting man - I expect more of this to come.

Cheers and Happy Ferstivus!
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Tacoma
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Tacoma »

Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Tacoma wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:02 am Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
Keeps getting removed from the forum because the guy basically doxxes himself. It’s out there on the internet though if you look hard enough.
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losercruiser
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by losercruiser »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:36 pm
Tacoma wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:02 am Where are yammer are these swoop pilot posts. Would love to read
PostmasterGeneral wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:28 am Captain was Probably too busy working on his yammer post about his problem child FO.
Keeps getting removed from the forum because the guy basically doxxes himself. It’s out there on the internet though if you look hard enough.
The problem is someone put his full name. The Yammer post only had his first name

Leave the last names out of it and it's not hard for someone to google PLEASE KEEP NAMES OUT OF THIS
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FL-280
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by FL-280 »

Impressive career of jumping from operator to operator.... and to say this guy was a training captain hahaha
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skyhighh
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by skyhighh »

Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
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digits_
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by digits_ »

skyhighh wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
Why is that a bad thing? If more pilots were to attempt that you would see wages go up pretty quickly...
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indieadventurer
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by indieadventurer »

skyhighh wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?

We really need to get our heads out of the sand about what we’re worth and realize how seniority ruins our free market ability to drive wages higher being slaves to one company.
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losercruiser
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by losercruiser »

indieadventurer wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:32 am
skyhighh wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?

Yes.
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7ECA
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by 7ECA »

Back to the incident at hand, the CADOR was posted.
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.
https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/ ... d2019P3452
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.80@410
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by .80@410 »

cloak wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:05 am Wow, this thread is so unprofessional-not to mention possibly exposing this site legally-to have started so recklessly based on a conversation just heard on the radio! And to be continued by others. Imagine the possible posts after the Transat glider, or Air Canada crash in YHZ or near miss in SFO, and many more, and clearly those would have been more warranted considering their outcome! Careful, karma could be a beach!
Typical ivory -tower koolaid - drinking reply . “ nothing to see here .. and if you see anything you better NOT see anything if you know what’s good for you “

Interesting how everyone ignored you and kept on discussing. Guess the propaganda is getting weak :wink:
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skyhighh
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by skyhighh »

If you want to improve the industry working conditions and pay, you don't go to Swoop, period. Swoop should have been fought to be kept under the WJ contract but you can't do that if you have "idiots" (I could use many other words) that are willing to step on everyone in order to get a couple extra bucks and 4 bars. If these people had waited Swoop would have been under a way better contract.
So instead of people talking about how bad Swoop is... Let's talk about the reason it is that bad.... The pilots.
And I have no sympathy for pilots throwing their FOs under the bus for not extending their day especially for a company that don't care for their pilots.
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lostaviator
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....

December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.

December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).
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tbayav8er
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by tbayav8er »

lostaviator wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:32 am Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....

December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.

December 18
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-800 (WSW401) on a flight from Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Int'l, MB (CYWG) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) deviated from the standard terminal arrival (STAR) after being cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) approach and descended below the minimum vectoring altitude. Controller cleared the aircraft to 9000 feet and provided vector for instrument landing system (ILS).
I believe the second one (December 18) is the one the original poster was referring to. The tracking on that STAR is especially important as it brings you safely around a couple of pretty big hills. Merry Christmas everyone, and stay safe out there!
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by KAG »

indieadventurer wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:32 am
skyhighh wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:48 am Looks like he goes from captain position to captain positions... Looks like Captainitus to me... And never went to any major with all this experience. It's okay, he will Swoop his way to WestJet... but not before being bypassed by ALL Encore pilots. I have a feeling he might change company soon.
What’s wrong with that? If one is qualified as a DEC at an airline, why should they have to start all over as a FO on a terrible pay scale?

We really need to get our heads out of the sand about what we’re worth and realize how seniority ruins our free market ability to drive wages higher being slaves to one company.
I agree with this. Many other trades/professions pay for experience, ours does not (at least at major airlines). Hopefully that changes as we sink further into the experience swamp.

Merry Christmas all
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Eric Janson
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Eric Janson »

One thing that struck me looking at the Abbotsford plates (Jeppesen).

SID and STAR plates do not have an MSA on them or a terrain map showing the highest elevation. This is now standard on Jeppesen plates.

All that is listed is a 100nm safe altitude.

This is a serious safety deficiency imho.
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lostaviator
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by lostaviator »

Eric Janson wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:20 am One thing that struck me looking at the Abbotsford plates (Jeppesen).

SID and STAR plates do not have an MSA on them or a terrain map showing the highest elevation. This is now standard on Jeppesen plates.

All that is listed is a 100nm safe altitude.

This is a serious safety deficiency imho.
Which Jepp plates are you looking at? They all have the MSA box on my set.

In the case of the custom RNP's, sector altitudes are not even really needed, because they were not designed to be a DCT IAF approach. The routing notes on both RNP's state how to connect and fly the approach from the STAR. The At or above altitudes provide terrain guidance all the way down.

Edit

Sorry, I misread your post (speed reading before coffee) and thought you were writing about the Jepp Approach plates.

I think Jepp is in the process of upgrading their plates with colour terrain profiles etc, but I think the 100 nm safe is the standard on most charts. I don't think I have ever seen 25 MSA's published on STARS or SIDS.
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co-joe
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by co-joe »

lostaviator wrote: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:32 am Seems like this wasn't an isolated incident. Happened the very next day as well....

December 17
A Swoop Inc. Boeing 737-8CT (C-FYBK/WSW107) on a flight from Hamilton, ON (CYHM) to Abbotsford, BC (CYXX) checked in on the HOPE 3 Arrival and was cleared for the area navigation (RNAV) 25 approach. The aircraft proceeded direct TASDI. The aircraft was levelled at the minimum IFR altitude.

...
The Cadors waters it down a bit, considering it was the controller who "levelled the aircraft off" by repeatedly calling them and instructing them to climb. Hacking HE, and KEKPO off the star is a bad idea. There's a reason ATC always instructs you to cross KEKPO at 9000' even though it a hard altitude on the star.

Eric is right, there's no terrain on the jepp star 10-2, and it's not geo synchronized so own ship doesn't display . There's a 100 nm safe and the crossing restrictions and that's it.
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losercruiser
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by losercruiser »

If you really need to know 25nm safe just look at the approach plate.

100nm safe is all you need for a STAR as long as you follow the STAR!

You can't just cut off sections as you please, it's not the same as ATC telling you to go DCT GOREG because you are radar controlled at that point and THEY take responsibility for terrain clearance.

Man fucking Swoop. Every time I drive by YXX on that side road and see those puke planes I roll my eyes and cry a little bit about the state of our profession in Canada.
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Edelweiss air
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Re: Swoop Terrain Warning

Post by Edelweiss air »

losercruiser wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:52 pm If you really need to know 25nm safe just look at the approach plate.

100nm safe is all you need for a STAR as long as you follow the STAR!

You can't just cut off sections as you please, it's not the same as ATC telling you to go DCT GOREG because you are radar controlled at that point and THEY take responsibility for terrain clearance.

Man fucking Swoop. Every time I drive by YXX on that side road and see those puke planes I roll my eyes and cry a little bit about the state of our profession in Canada.
Only time atc takes terrain clearance is if you’re on a radar vector ie flying an assigned heading. Accepting direct to a fix it’s up to you.
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