WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

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Hangry
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Hangry »

tbaylx wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
I don't think anyone would expect you to understand what a CA is, or does, or prevents.
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sjatana
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by sjatana »

altiplano wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:48 am
:lol: :lol:
@altiplano, that was stellar.
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Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

tbaylx wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
It all comes down to math. Without being able to put specifics to numbers... What is the guaranteed monthly minimum for a pilot at WJ? Is ALPA willing to negotiate a change to that like AC did? How many pilots will WJ, Swoop and Encore require going forward and how long fast will they recall anyone? If mainline lays off 1000 pilots and encore/swoop only needs 300...700 mainline pilots + all of encore/swoop is on the street, taking into account relative seniority. Still significant cash flow savings. Maybe those 300 initial training courses saved another few jobs. But once the amount of layoffs exceeds the training costs of all the jobs left at encore/swoop the there is no telling how deep the cuts may go since there is only savings to the company beyond that point.

Hope it doesn’t sting too bad.

-Jimmy
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mbav8r
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by mbav8r »

Hangry wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:13 pm
tbaylx wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
I don't think anyone would expect you to understand what a CA is, or does, or prevents.
Not too often I laugh out loud when on avcanada, this one did it! Thanks
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moe
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by moe »

:lol:
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Yycjetdriver »

hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:18 am Guys a lot of this rumour and speculation could be resolved by just reading the contract and PTA agreement.

There is no force majeure clause in the contract. There is something that sounds like a force majeure clause in the layoff section, but it only applies to notice of layoff timelines and layoff pay. That's it. If it applied to the whole contract it wouldn't specify the exact clauses it applies to! And it would live up in Scope or General or something, not buried in section 20 Layoffs. Even when that card is pulled (20.1.05) you still get layoff pay, but less.

As far as bumping to Encore, the PTA spells it out. If a mainline guy is gonna be on the street, he can bump into an Encore position. Period. "BUMP". Not "fill vacancy". When I bump you, you fall off your chair. That's the price the Encore guys (and company for recruitment carrots, remember when that was a thing? :rolleyes: ) were willing to pay for getting a number on the WJ main list.

Please go read the contract and PTA. Then read it again for good measure. Then think about how bad it would look on WJ if they fu*&ed around with things and decide if they are willing to look like DBs to save a buck or 3, when every other airline is following the rules they agreed on.
There was no need for me to re-read the CBA or PTA, I know what they say and have zero faith in the ELT. The email from the MEC tonight saying how the union and the company are not “interpreting” the CBA and PTA the same is further proof they’re trying to circumvent it to the best of their ability....
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mbav8r
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by mbav8r »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:00 pm
hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:18 am Guys a lot of this rumour and speculation could be resolved by just reading the contract and PTA agreement.

There is no force majeure clause in the contract. There is something that sounds like a force majeure clause in the layoff section, but it only applies to notice of layoff timelines and layoff pay. That's it. If it applied to the whole contract it wouldn't specify the exact clauses it applies to! And it would live up in Scope or General or something, not buried in section 20 Layoffs. Even when that card is pulled (20.1.05) you still get layoff pay, but less.

As far as bumping to Encore, the PTA spells it out. If a mainline guy is gonna be on the street, he can bump into an Encore position. Period. "BUMP". Not "fill vacancy". When I bump you, you fall off your chair. That's the price the Encore guys (and company for recruitment carrots, remember when that was a thing? :rolleyes: ) were willing to pay for getting a number on the WJ main list.

Please go read the contract and PTA. Then read it again for good measure. Then think about how bad it would look on WJ if they fu*&ed around with things and decide if they are willing to look like DBs to save a buck or 3, when every other airline is following the rules they agreed on.
There was no need for me to re-read the CBA or PTA, I know what they say and have zero faith in the ELT. The email from the MEC tonight saying how the union and the company are not “interpreting” the CBA and PTA the same is further proof they’re trying to circumvent it to the best of their ability....
This is sounding like they will do what they think and tell you to grieve it, going to arbitration and we know how that goes.
I sincerely wish you guys the best, I hope we all have a speedy resumption of demand.
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Blue42
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Blue42 »

mbav8r wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:19 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:00 pm
hurtin'albertan wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:18 am Guys a lot of this rumour and speculation could be resolved by just reading the contract and PTA agreement.

There is no force majeure clause in the contract. There is something that sounds like a force majeure clause in the layoff section, but it only applies to notice of layoff timelines and layoff pay. That's it. If it applied to the whole contract it wouldn't specify the exact clauses it applies to! And it would live up in Scope or General or something, not buried in section 20 Layoffs. Even when that card is pulled (20.1.05) you still get layoff pay, but less.

As far as bumping to Encore, the PTA spells it out. If a mainline guy is gonna be on the street, he can bump into an Encore position. Period. "BUMP". Not "fill vacancy". When I bump you, you fall off your chair. That's the price the Encore guys (and company for recruitment carrots, remember when that was a thing? :rolleyes: ) were willing to pay for getting a number on the WJ main list.

Please go read the contract and PTA. Then read it again for good measure. Then think about how bad it would look on WJ if they fu*&ed around with things and decide if they are willing to look like DBs to save a buck or 3, when every other airline is following the rules they agreed on.
There was no need for me to re-read the CBA or PTA, I know what they say and have zero faith in the ELT. The email from the MEC tonight saying how the union and the company are not “interpreting” the CBA and PTA the same is further proof they’re trying to circumvent it to the best of their ability....
This is sounding like they will do what they think and tell you to grieve it, going to arbitration and we know how that goes.
I sincerely wish you guys the best, I hope we all have a speedy resumption of demand.
Never worked in a union environment before?? IAM, CUPE, TEAMSTERS, ACPA, and guess what, ALPA. They’re all the same. Except most of those other ones communicate! Plus they have a lot more experience in the game.
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tbaylx
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by tbaylx »

Hangry wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:13 pm
tbaylx wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:11 pm I doubt that the Westjet group is going to create 300+ initial training courses on a Q400 as part of their layoff plan regardless of what is in the one list agreement. Defeats the purpose of managing cash flow.
I don't think anyone would expect you to understand what a CA is, or does, or prevents.
Nor would anyone expect you to understand economics and why Westjet isn't going to train 300 initial Q400 courses.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Layoffs announced today. 1700 total, notices going out tomorrow. 700 effective May 1st, 1000 effective June 1st.
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George Taylor
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by George Taylor »

tbaylx, you're the plague in aviation. You should be called Tbaylx-19. Ef-u and your lack of current knowledge of what's going on here. You went from flying one ugly plane to an even uglier one.
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98 Corolla
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by 98 Corolla »

So are all Encore pilots laid off and those spots will be filled by WestJet pilots or not?
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Jean-Pierre »

They're not going to train 737 pilots to fly the Q400 in a couple of weeks. The one list was always a one way street.
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by DirtyDashDriver »

So are all Encore pilots laid off and those spots will be filled by WestJet pilots or not?
That's not how I read the e-mail from JA or the WEN MEC. The phrase that sticks out to me is "...per bargaining unit." That says to me we're being treated as individual groups, PTA be damned. Although I would have been screwed with the PTA, I really wish they'd follow what we agreed to.
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Dry Guy
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Dry Guy »

The government is giving out free money for wages until at least June 6th. It's not much but it's more than EI. Why are scumbag companies doing this?

It's like they are holding their employees as hostages and saying if they don't get a bailout they are going pull the trigger. And just to prove they aren't bluffing they already pulled it on 75% of them.
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Fanblade
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by Fanblade »

Dry Guy wrote: Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:13 pm The government is giving out free money for wages until at least June 6th. It's not much but it's more than EI. Why are scumbag companies doing this?
https://globalnews.ca/news/6825183/coro ... s-layoffs/

This news article states that those furloughed May 1 and June 1 will remain on CEWS until June 6.
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altiplano
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by altiplano »

I just saw the numbers... I'm shocked. I hope we get out the other side of this quickly.
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thrust set
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by thrust set »

I’ve heard plans of returning with only 39-737’s and 22-Q400’s. What are the plans for the 787’s and the 767’s? Initially parking or any being returned ?
Good luck to all, hope for a quick return.

TS
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derk99
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by derk99 »

thrust set wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:46 am I’ve heard plans of returning with only 39-737’s and 22-Q400’s. What are the plans for the 787’s and the 767’s? Initially parking or any being returned ?
Good luck to all, hope for a quick return.

TS
I was told Air Canada has already shown interest in purchasing the 787 aircraft.
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altiplano
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Re: WestJet Group Hiring Freeze

Post by altiplano »

derk99 wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:36 am
thrust set wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:46 am I’ve heard plans of returning with only 39-737’s and 22-Q400’s. What are the plans for the 787’s and the 767’s? Initially parking or any being returned ?
Good luck to all, hope for a quick return.

TS
I was told Air Canada has already shown interest in purchasing the 787 aircraft.
I believe AC already has 787 options available from Boeing at a significantly discounted price, 2004 prices from the initial 777/787 order. Plus with MAX leverage? Plus with Boeing desperate for orders? That price would be getting really good.
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