WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

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Blue42
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Blue42 »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:28 am I think that there is no agreement that would ever please everyone, but this agreement smells of bias to some. I’m on the fence.

According to a text message floating around, there are 15 people who are members of the Negotiating Committee, the MEC, or the LEC’s. Of these 15 people, 11 were slated for lay-off as a result of the bid that closed in late April, and 4 were losing their position (including the MEC Chair who lost his YYC CA spot and would have been commuting to YHM for a Swoop CA position, and the Vice-Chair who lost his YVR CA and was forced to commute to YYC).

I understand the senior pilot’s anger at having to subsidize the rest of the bargaining unit. The FA’s, under CUPE chose to maintain work terms. I’m not sure which approach is better. Certainly senior pilots at WJ share their seniority benefits with junior pilots in a manner different from other groups, and I’m thankful they do. Seniority schedule bidding won’t help me for years, and as a commuter, seniority in stand-by travel would hurt me, as would seniority vacation bidding. Having senior people eligible for reserve if they change positions seems to me to be unfair to senior pilots, but it did keep me from any reserve consideration so I’m thankful.

Maybe ALPA should have gotten something for the pilots in exchange for saving the company money through this MOA that would help the senior pilots. Just spitballing.

Finally, the One List is what forced the company into this position of penalizing the senior pilots. Without the PTA, the company would have just laid off by bargaining unit, and been in great shape to weather Covid-19, without the need to punish the senior pilots.

I just want to say thanks to the senior guys and gals. I flew with lots of them the last three years and appreciate their sacrifice as involuntary as it was. 53% of the members voted in a survey to prioritize layoffs over concessions. Not sure why they didn’t hold the line, but it benefitted me so I guess I’m happy-ish.

Here’s a beer to better times ahead!
The 53% wasn’t a vote and it was explained why the decisions were made the way they were. I find it funny that a few keep bringing up the 53% as a majority decision, that was pretty much the “no” vote to unionization 3 or 4 years ago. Didn’t stop the gang from pushing ALPA down throats a year later with their big promises and giant “tool box”. It’s actually a small percentage that are really upset, and seem to be mostly newer upgrades. Some less then a month or 2, c’mon.....we’re going to sink 850 guys so a few can enjoy the summer off. There are many more happier then upset in my opinion. Cheers to beers!
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by hurtin'albertan »

Blue42 wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 10:15 pm
The 53% wasn’t a vote and it was explained why the decisions were made the way they were. I find it funny that a few keep bringing up the 53% as a majority decision, that was pretty much the “no” vote to unionization 3 or 4 years ago. Didn’t stop the gang from pushing ALPA down throats a year later with their big promises and giant “tool box”. It’s actually a small percentage that are really upset, and seem to be mostly newer upgrades. Some less then a month or 2, c’mon.....we’re going to sink 850 guys so a few can enjoy the summer off. There are many more happier then upset in my opinion. Cheers to beers!
I agree. 53% of people saying one thing on a survey that was only filled out by less than 2/3 of the pilots is not a majority. And the guys said on the call a couple weeks ago that a lot of people in that 53% then went on to add things in the comments like "but, I'd be ok with a lower mmg" and all that.

I think some people are scared, some are angry and some probably have a hate-on for alpa already and long for the good ole days of the wjpa. Some feel all three. This whole letter thing written by a former old guard guy... like where do I even begin. :roll:

People need to take a look around at what's happening in the world, and the economy and the industry. Sure, the FAs didn't take any concessions, except now there are only like 350 left flying full blocks and deadheading and hotelling all over the place during a pandemic, out of, what 3000? How many days a month are our pilots flying? That's a whole other conversation right there. :smt022

And this whole bs about us taking the deepest cuts in North America. Well the US carriers CAN'T do any cuts until their fed grants run out this fall and they are already gearing up for massive layoffs and concessions come then. And tell that to the Transat and Sunwing and Porter guys in the EI or CERB line right now. And Air Canada has basically the same deal as us! LOL :rolleyes:

Anyways, let's hope this is all over soon and everyone stay safe. :drinkers:
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Furloughed
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Furloughed »

AC just waited until the Markets closed before the Long Weekend, and then announced layoffs of between 19,000 to 23,500 out of 38,000 employees. Once that happens, we all know it takes years, not months to get everyone retrained and up to speed. Means that what we have been hearing from our own CEO about a long recovery of up to three years is probably realistic. This is going to be for the long haul, hate to say it. Hope the MEC is already looking beyond when the current MOA expires on Sept 30th, because we are not in the drivers seat or anywhere close to it this time. The pilot shortage is officially over. Wait til the inevitable failures of companies start to happen. Going to make 9/11 and SARS look like a cake walk. Hope everyone is keeping healthy in all ways.
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Babar350
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Babar350 »

Or maybe the announcement was made on purpose to force the federal to give them some sort of a bailout.
Meanwhile, watch the market opens on Monday morning, I won't be surprised to see AC stock plummets another 50%.
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rudder
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by rudder »

Babar350 wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:41 am Or maybe the announcement was made on purpose to force the federal to give them some sort of a bailout.
Meanwhile, watch the market opens on Monday morning, I won't be surprised to see AC stock plummets another 50%.
TSX is closed Monday (Victoria Day).

As for timing, AC had already been in discussions with some labour groups and CUPE had put out a bulletin on May 14 containing some of the bad news. Having said that, by putting the story out on Friday after JT headed for Harrington it meant the impact of the story would be felt through the news cycle without rebuttal from YOW for 2-3 days.

CR is clearly pissed about the lack of industry specific aid from the Feds. So he will use this as an opportunity to highlight that. If anything positive comes of it, WJ will benefit by association.

As for valuation, I doubt the stock will move more than 10% on Tuesday. Most of the impact of COVID has been priced in to the stock and there is no suggestion that AC is remotely close to CCAA. And as for WJ, ONEX just took a massive write down on their investment.
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Blue42
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Blue42 »

Babar350 wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:41 am Or maybe the announcement was made on purpose to force the federal to give them some sort of a bailout.
Meanwhile, watch the market opens on Monday morning, I won't be surprised to see AC stock plummets another 50%.
Funny, AC was up over 14%! Good call. :lol:
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Babar350
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Babar350 »

Blue42 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:50 pm
Babar350 wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:41 am Or maybe the announcement was made on purpose to force the federal to give them some sort of a bailout.
Meanwhile, watch the market opens on Monday morning, I won't be surprised to see AC stock plummets another 50%.
Funny, AC was up over 14%! Good call. :lol:
Well, when you have the government saying " we will be working with the airline to help cope with a pandemic" that is some kind of bailout.
Time will tell.
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mijbil
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by mijbil »

It's the CBC reporting so have a shot of tequila and then some salt. It looks at first glance like ONEX is trying to skirt the law. If so, Westjetters, move to stop this before it impacts other companies. A precedent is all that is required for the others.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westje ... -1.5578719
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Commonwealth
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Commonwealth »

mijbil wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:40 pm It's the CBC reporting so have a shot of tequila and then some salt. It looks at first glance like ONEX is trying to skirt the law. If so, Westjetters, move to stop this before it impacts other companies. A precedent is all that is required for the others.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westje ... -1.5578719
I agree about having a drink first. Also take two deep breaths before and after reading the article. IMO there will be a lot of hate towards WestJet over this. I think the general public really dislikes it when a corporation wants special help because following the law is no longer convenient. The public sees that WJ does not want to honour the contract it holds with its workforce. This comes as a low blow and this behaviour really shows what WJ thinks of its workforce. Personally I am sad to read this because I once believed WJ set a high mark In employee relations. How far they have fallen. :(
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palebird
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by palebird »

To all those people who thought/said ONEX purchase was a step forward. Wrong. They are corporate raiders. Period. Now they need to get their money out of Westjet by any means possible. Look out below. Everything is on the table.
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Squid
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Squid »

palebird wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 4:10 pm To all those people who thought/said ONEX purchase was a step forward. Wrong. They are corporate raiders. Period. Now they need to get their money out of Westjet by any means possible. Look out below. Everything is on the table.
Lol I’ve been watching your hypothesis on the industry hate for years. You’ve never been close to any predictions with that business course you took years ago
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palebird
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by palebird »

Watch and weep loser.
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Blue42
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Blue42 »

Commonwealth wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:51 pm
mijbil wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:40 pm It's the CBC reporting so have a shot of tequila and then some salt. It looks at first glance like ONEX is trying to skirt the law. If so, Westjetters, move to stop this before it impacts other companies. A precedent is all that is required for the others.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westje ... -1.5578719
I agree about having a drink first. Also take two deep breaths before and after reading the article. IMO there will be a lot of hate towards WestJet over this. I think the general public really dislikes it when a corporation wants special help because following the law is no longer convenient. The public sees that WJ does not want to honour the contract it holds with its workforce. This comes as a low blow and this behaviour really shows what WJ thinks of its workforce. Personally I am sad to read this because I once believed WJ set a high mark In employee relations. How far they have fallen. :(


My understanding for this is the law, right now, states that anyone on a LOA for 6 months is then required to be paid a severance from the company. Asking for a let on this is to allow employees to remain on an LOA for longer then 6 months. We’ll see if that’s the case. AC is offering 24 months LOAs to FAs right now, not sure if they have an exemption or it’s part of their contract agreement.
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flyinhigh
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by flyinhigh »

Unless it is stated in a labour agreement, than it is 12 months. Pilots are protected as your CBA states 120 months.
Blue42 wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 9:57 am My understanding for this is the law, right now, states that anyone on a LOA for 6 months is then required to be paid a severance from the company. Asking for a let on this is to allow employees to remain on an LOA for longer then 6 months. We’ll see if that’s the case. AC is offering 24 months LOAs to FAs right now, not sure if they have an exemption or it’s part of their contract agreement.
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Blue42
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Blue42 »

flyinhigh wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:50 am Unless it is stated in a labour agreement, than it is 12 months. Pilots are protected as your CBA states 120 months.
Blue42 wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 9:57 am My understanding for this is the law, right now, states that anyone on a LOA for 6 months is then required to be paid a severance from the company. Asking for a let on this is to allow employees to remain on an LOA for longer then 6 months. We’ll see if that’s the case. AC is offering 24 months LOAs to FAs right now, not sure if they have an exemption or it’s part of their contract agreement.
6 months....

Nothing in our CBA stating 120 months, not sure where you got that from. In the CBA you can take a personal leave up to 6 months.
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George Taylor
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by George Taylor »

Recall rights are 120 months
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Blue42
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Blue42 »

George Taylor wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:10 pm Recall rights are 120 months
For a layoff yes, not sure what that has to do with a discussion about LOAs.
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Furloughed »

Blue42 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:47 pm
George Taylor wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:10 pm Recall rights are 120 months
For a layoff yes, not sure what that has to do with a discussion about LOAs.
Ummm, Blue42, you're the only one here talking about LOA. The Thread title is "Layoff Mitigation Agreement" and the news article was about AC laying off it's employees and taking them off of CEWS. So yes, WJ is looking for a Let from the Govt to do mass layoffs. Not sure if you heard but there are a lot of other employees at WJ other than pilots. I know...I had a hard time believing it too, I always thought it was all about us...but....hey!. The gate agents and other ground staff are not required with a 95% reduction in flying, and there is more than 50 of them. So I suspect that is who WJ is planning on giving the boot as soon as they cheaply can. The pilots have 120 Months before they can permanently get rid of us. George Taylor is correct.
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by aerobod »

Just to be clear, from a Federal labour law perspective all temporary layoffs / LOAs have to be made permanent with a severance / termination payout after 6 months, if there isn't a CBA that states otherwise. WS is asking to extend this for a longer period to allow recall beyond 6 months for the employees not under a CBA. The other issue is the notification period to the Government when more than 50 employees are terminated at once, leading to a need to start the termination process 16 weeks before the 6 month LOA is reached, so the decision point is looming soon.

There is no "cheap" termination, WS can terminate at any point if a role is being reduced for the statutory termination pay, the calculation for which doesn't change if it is at the current mandatory 6 month max, or if the period is extended by the Government. What WS is asking is to allow employees to be kept on the payroll in an LOA state longer than the 6 month max, so that they have more flexibility to recall as the operation spools up again.

If someone is on an LOA, their terms of employment at WS allows them to work elsewhere (as long as it isn't for a competitor) and keep their benefits and employment status. The employee commitment is to be available in a "reasonable period of time" to re-commence work when recalled.
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Last edited by aerobod on Fri May 29, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blue42
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Re: WS/WO Layoff Mitigation Agreement

Post by Blue42 »

Furloughed wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:26 am
Blue42 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:47 pm
George Taylor wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:10 pm Recall rights are 120 months
For a layoff yes, not sure what that has to do with a discussion about LOAs.
Ummm, Blue42, you're the only one here talking about LOA. The Thread title is "Layoff Mitigation Agreement" and the news article was about AC laying off it's employees and taking them off of CEWS. So yes, WJ is looking for a Let from the Govt to do mass layoffs. Not sure if you heard but there are a lot of other employees at WJ other than pilots. I know...I had a hard time believing it too, I always thought it was all about us...but....hey!. The gate agents and other ground staff are not required with a 95% reduction in flying, and there is more than 50 of them. So I suspect that is who WJ is planning on giving the boot as soon as they cheaply can. The pilots have 120 Months before they can permanently get rid of us. George Taylor is correct.
No shit Sherlock. If you read a bit you’ll see my response earlier was the explanation as to why the exemption was requested. As has been stated in the company webinars. After 6 months on a LOA, leave of absence, the company must pay severance and the employee cuts all ties with the company! They are no longer employed or able to come back. They lose all seniority, with applicable pay rates, vacation, benefits. The exemption is so the can extend the LOA and STAY employed at Westjet!!!
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