More WJ layoffs

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sstaurus
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by sstaurus »

Disgusting to say the least that the last offer didn’t even go out to a vote.
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Curiousflyer
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Curiousflyer »

sstaurus wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:10 pm Disgusting to say the least that the last offer didn’t even go out to a vote.
Doesn’t look like the last offer had ESP?
Does the current MOA have ESP?
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Yycjetdriver »

Curiousflyer wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:06 pm
sstaurus wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:10 pm Disgusting to say the least that the last offer didn’t even go out to a vote.
Doesn’t look like the last offer had ESP?
Does the current MOA have ESP?
No it did not. The last offer did have block hour triggers (percentages based on 2019 hours) that would provide WSP at different levels.
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cloak
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cloak »

George Taylor wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:22 am WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.
Although the tendency by employees is to usually blame the big bad company when things don’t go their way, it is simply not so in this case and its offer would have likely met the expectations of the majority had it been presented to the membership. Possibly internal union wrangling or a coup?!
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George Taylor
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by George Taylor »

cloak wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 pm
George Taylor wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:22 am WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.
Although the tendency by employees is to usually blame the big bad company when things don’t go their way, it is simply not so in this case and its offer would have likely met the expectations of the majority had it been presented to the membership. Possibly internal union wrangling or a coup?!
Umm, you’re wrong. I said employees, not pilots. So the termination, not layoffs, of thousands of employees wasn’t taking advantage of the crisis? The way the employees have been treated is disgusting. The only thing that saved the pilots was the union and the cost of layoffs.
The circus currently happing re: Union is a totally different matter.
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sstaurus
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by sstaurus »

cloak wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 pm
George Taylor wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:22 am WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.
Although the tendency by employees is to usually blame the big bad company when things don’t go their way, it is simply not so in this case and its offer would have likely met the expectations of the majority had it been presented to the membership. Possibly internal union wrangling or a coup?!
Yep, in this case self-serving union reps who need to be recalled asap, for once not the company’s fault.
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FL410AV8R
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by FL410AV8R »

sstaurus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:15 am
cloak wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 pm
George Taylor wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:22 am WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.
Although the tendency by employees is to usually blame the big bad company when things don’t go their way, it is simply not so in this case and its offer would have likely met the expectations of the majority had it been presented to the membership. Possibly internal union wrangling or a coup?!
Yep, in this case self-serving union reps who need to be recalled asap, for once not the company’s fault.
You can't possibly be that short-sighted. In the immortal words of someone familiar to WJers, give your head a shake.
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Oscar
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Oscar »

There is a LOT more to the story than everyone has heard so far. This has been a completely one-sided information campaign. When you hear the details from the other side, which I've been assured is soon, I think most people will have a drastically different outlook on who's to blame.
Keep your heads up. Still 12 days left. The MOA has not expired. The company and the union have said talks are over as of a few days ago, but they have NOT amended the current MOA to end a few days ago. The MOA has not expired. There is still a lot of time remaining for talks. I will say one thing for certain, it is absolutely despicable that the outgoing chair decided to throw a grenade on his way out and screw the pilot group as he has. Like I say, wait till you hear the other side of the story in detail!!!
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tsgas
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by tsgas »

This has turned into a real cliffhanger.
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kiaszceski
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by kiaszceski »

Popcorn and coke?

Who is the other side? WJ, Encore, or the company, maybe Kaplan is in there? :smt040
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Oscar
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Oscar »

All I can say, is the majority of the people who sent harsh messages to the 4 LEC and/or 3 NC, may ultimately end up apologizing and actually thanking them instead. Wait to hear some of the stuff that has gone on behind the scenes, and you'll come to realise a well orchestrated attempt to undermine our representation and force the ball into the company's court. There is a reason the Chair is being ousted. Again, patience please. The truth will emerge.
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FL030
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by FL030 »

Why not just say what happened? I never understood the psychology behind these cryptic social media posters. Is it about attention?
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Yycjetdriver »

FL030 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:27 pm Why not just say what happened? I never understood the psychology behind these cryptic social media posters. Is it about attention?
Without knowing what the information to come is, perhaps the reason for being cryptic is for fear of repercussions for spreading said news on a public forum. Westjet has and will terminate employees for their internet activity.
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cjet
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cjet »

I absolutely can and will blame WJ. I 100% stand behind are LEC members.

Cjet
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cloak
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cloak »

George Taylor wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm
cloak wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 pm
George Taylor wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:22 am WestJet seems too focused on how to game the employees. They're giving up market share, canceling orders, while others are expanding and placing new orders.
Although the tendency by employees is to usually blame the big bad company when things don’t go their way, it is simply not so in this case and its offer would have likely met the expectations of the majority had it been presented to the membership. Possibly internal union wrangling or a coup?!
Umm, you’re wrong. I said employees, not pilots. So the termination, not layoffs, of thousands of employees wasn’t taking advantage of the crisis? The way the employees have been treated is disgusting. The only thing that saved the pilots was the union and the cost of layoffs.
The circus currently happing re: Union is a totally different matter.
Clearly in Canada the liberal government has failed the nation, but particularly the aviation industry. In stark contrast with the United States, Justin has used every opportunity to issue bans and restrictions while failing to bear the cost and offer support. The States understood the challenges early on and proactively supported the industry.

In this environment, airlines have tried to cope with the realities in which they find themselves. They can’t be faulted for wanting to survive. It wouldn’t do anyone any good if a company kept all its staff including non skilled labour and went bankrupt nine months ago. At the same time, one’s perception is one’s reality and as long as some remain of the opinion that the big bad company wants to hurt their career, they will find a way to make it a reality themselves!

As for the current circus that you say, clearly the deal had to be presented to the membership and the will of union reps as illumined and informed as they may think they are, cannot decide for the majority. Frankly, if really illumined and wise, they wouldn’t want to bear that responsibility. Unfortunately ALPA, like other unions, becomes the very obstacle it seeks to remove.
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ALPApolicy
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by ALPApolicy »

As for the current circus that you say, clearly the deal had to be presented to the membership and the will of union reps as illumined and informed as they may think they are, cannot decide for the majority. Frankly, if really illumined and wise, they wouldn’t want to bear that responsibility.
cloak, whatever one thinks about the morality of not presenting an offer to the membership, the ALPA Constitution & Bylaws are quite clear that the MEC (composed of LEC status reps and the MEC chair) are under no legal obligation to bring an offer to the membership.




ARTICLE XVIII - AGREEMENT APPROVAL AND VALIDATION

SECTION 1 - COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

.
.
.

SECTION 2 - RATIFICATION

A. Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC, substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member pilots will be subject to membership ratification under the following terms and conditions:

(1) The MEC will, at its option, ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their desire to have membership ratification. Once membership ratification is established it will remain in effect until changed by another ballot of the membership through MEC action.

(2) Unless the membership is balloted, as described in Section 2A(1) of this Article, membership ratification of individual contracts and agreements will remain the option of the MEC.
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cloak
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cloak »

ALPApolicy wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:22 pm
A. Any contract, letter of agreement or letter of understanding that, in the opinion of the MEC, substantially affects the pay, working conditions, retirement, or career security of member pilots will be subject to membership ratification under the following terms and conditions:

(1) The MEC will, at its option, ballot the membership of their airline to determine if it is their desire to have membership ratification. Once membership ratification is established it will remain in effect until changed by another ballot of the membership through MEC action.

(2) Unless the membership is balloted, as described in Section 2A(1) of this Article, membership ratification of individual contracts and agreements will remain the option of the MEC.
Interestingly enough it does say under your own post number (1) that once a ratification is established, as in the last MOA, it remains in effect until a new ratification is done! Not to mention that a vote was promised in the last MOA. Not to mention that the decision was not unanimous. Not to mention the opening paragraph above regarding substantially affecting the membership, etc. And in a position of authority of just recently being acclaimed, one who is wise and a well wisher of all members would not wish to carry alone the burden of making such weighty decision, rather seek participation and involvement from as broad a base as possible. A vote would have been and remains the right thing to do. Let the members decide their own fate.
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newlygrounded
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by newlygrounded »

cloak wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:54 pm
George Taylor wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm
cloak wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:48 pm

Although the tendency by employees is to usually blame the big bad company when things don’t go their way, it is simply not so in this case and its offer would have likely met the expectations of the majority had it been presented to the membership. Possibly internal union wrangling or a coup?!
Umm, you’re wrong. I said employees, not pilots. So the termination, not layoffs, of thousands of employees wasn’t taking advantage of the crisis? The way the employees have been treated is disgusting. The only thing that saved the pilots was the union and the cost of layoffs.
The circus currently happing re: Union is a totally different matter.
Clearly in Canada the liberal government has failed the nation, but particularly the aviation industry. In stark contrast with the United States, Justin has used every opportunity to issue bans and restrictions while failing to bear the cost and offer support. The States understood the challenges early on and proactively supported the industry.

In this environment, airlines have tried to cope with the realities in which they find themselves. They can’t be faulted for wanting to survive. It wouldn’t do anyone any good if a company kept all its staff including non skilled labour and went bankrupt nine months ago. At the same time, one’s perception is one’s reality and as long as some remain of the opinion that the big bad company wants to hurt their career, they will find a way to make it a reality themselves!

As for the current circus that you say, clearly the deal had to be presented to the membership and the will of union reps as illumined and informed as they may think they are, cannot decide for the majority. Frankly, if really illumined and wise, they wouldn’t want to bear that responsibility. Unfortunately ALPA, like other unions, becomes the very obstacle it seeks to remove.
What do you call CERB and CEWS?
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tsgas
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by tsgas »

newlygrounded wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:25 pm
cloak wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:54 pm
George Taylor wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

Umm, you’re wrong. I said employees, not pilots. So the termination, not layoffs, of thousands of employees wasn’t taking advantage of the crisis? The way the employees have been treated is disgusting. The only thing that saved the pilots was the union and the cost of layoffs.
The circus currently happing re: Union is a totally different matter.
Clearly in Canada the liberal government has failed the nation, but particularly the aviation industry. In stark contrast with the United States, Justin has used every opportunity to issue bans and restrictions while failing to bear the cost and offer support. The States understood the challenges early on and proactively supported the industry.

In this environment, airlines have tried to cope with the realities in which they find themselves. They can’t be faulted for wanting to survive. It wouldn’t do anyone any good if a company kept all its staff including non skilled labour and went bankrupt nine months ago. At the same time, one’s perception is one’s reality and as long as some remain of the opinion that the big bad company wants to hurt their career, they will find a way to make it a reality themselves!

As for the current circus that you say, clearly the deal had to be presented to the membership and the will of union reps as illumined and informed as they may think they are, cannot decide for the majority. Frankly, if really illumined and wise, they wouldn’t want to bear that responsibility. Unfortunately ALPA, like other unions, becomes the very obstacle it seeks to remove.
What do you call CERB and CEWS?
A token jester and not enough compared to the USA.
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newlygrounded
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by newlygrounded »

tsgas wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:28 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:25 pm
cloak wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Clearly in Canada the liberal government has failed the nation, but particularly the aviation industry. In stark contrast with the United States, Justin has used every opportunity to issue bans and restrictions while failing to bear the cost and offer support. The States understood the challenges early on and proactively supported the industry.

In this environment, airlines have tried to cope with the realities in which they find themselves. They can’t be faulted for wanting to survive. It wouldn’t do anyone any good if a company kept all its staff including non skilled labour and went bankrupt nine months ago. At the same time, one’s perception is one’s reality and as long as some remain of the opinion that the big bad company wants to hurt their career, they will find a way to make it a reality themselves!

As for the current circus that you say, clearly the deal had to be presented to the membership and the will of union reps as illumined and informed as they may think they are, cannot decide for the majority. Frankly, if really illumined and wise, they wouldn’t want to bear that responsibility. Unfortunately ALPA, like other unions, becomes the very obstacle it seeks to remove.
What do you call CERB and CEWS?
A token jester and not enough compared to the USA.
If you see their stimulus bill there was a lot of hogwash in it IMO. Almost every company in Canada is suffering, and tax payers seem super against bailouts. I personally would rather the money in people pockets than what the USA did.
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