More WJ layoffs

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alkaseltzer
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by alkaseltzer »

elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects. The problem however is that unions are not meant to be run like kingdoms as they don’t have individuals with long and proven history of benevolence.

Under the circumstances while the government is simply apathetic to the challenges of the industry and the financial plight of its people, and the effects of its limitations and restrictions linger on, it was very short-sighted, and as someone mentioned above driven by self interests or spite, that the company’s reasonable offer was not accepted or at least shared with the group to make a democratic decision based on the will of the majority.

To add insult to injury, it appears those individuals removed the other elements that were in favour of the deal! All under the guise of “protecting the contract”, “out of principle” and all under the watchful eyes of ALPA! By now it must be painfully clear that ALPA was a failed experiment! The simple fact is that ALPA, with all its benefits and shortcomings and politics, is not a Canadian organization and is not for Canadian pilots. Similar events took place with Canada 3000 that it charged in overpromising, underdelivering, and in the end running away when there was no money coming in. Another example would be air Canada walking away. Canada and the challenges unique to its pilots are not appreciated fully.

If you must have a union, have one that is for you, its constitution makes sense, and it follows common sense. There are other choices in Canada, not to mention the one you can make for yourself. And on top of all that, negotiate! No one has ever reached a “good deal” through antagonization, walking away from talks, and arbitration! Rebuild your relationships, amongst yourselves and with your employer to arrive at a mutually agreeable and prosperous solution. You’ve done it in the past, there is no reason you can’t do it in the future!
ALPA = Liberal Party? The parallels are uncanny.
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gswartz
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by gswartz »

elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
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Mach1
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Mach1 »

elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects. The problem however is that unions are not meant to be run like kingdoms as they don’t have individuals with long and proven history of benevolence.

Under the circumstances while the government is simply apathetic to the challenges of the industry and the financial plight of its people, and the effects of its limitations and restrictions linger on, it was very short-sighted, and as someone mentioned above driven by self interests or spite, that the company’s reasonable offer was not accepted or at least shared with the group to make a democratic decision based on the will of the majority.

To add insult to injury, it appears those individuals removed the other elements that were in favour of the deal! All under the guise of “protecting the contract”, “out of principle” and all under the watchful eyes of ALPA! By now it must be painfully clear that ALPA was a failed experiment! The simple fact is that ALPA, with all its benefits and shortcomings and politics, is not a Canadian organization and is not for Canadian pilots. Similar events took place with Canada 3000 that it charged in overpromising, underdelivering, and in the end running away when there was no money coming in. Another example would be air Canada walking away. Canada and the challenges unique to its pilots are not appreciated fully.

If you must have a union, have one that is for you, its constitution makes sense, and it follows common sense. There are other choices in Canada, not to mention the one you can make for yourself. And on top of all that, negotiate! No one has ever reached a “good deal” through antagonization, walking away from talks, and arbitration! Rebuild your relationships, amongst yourselves and with your employer to arrive at a mutually agreeable and prosperous solution. You’ve done it in the past, there is no reason you can’t do it in the future!
Holy one dimensional, one sided argument Batman!

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ALPApolicy
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by ALPApolicy »

elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects. The problem however is that unions are not meant to be run like kingdoms as they don’t have individuals with long and proven history of benevolence.

Under the circumstances while the government is simply apathetic to the challenges of the industry and the financial plight of its people, and the effects of its limitations and restrictions linger on, it was very short-sighted, and as someone mentioned above driven by self interests or spite, that the company’s reasonable offer was not accepted or at least shared with the group to make a democratic decision based on the will of the majority.

To add insult to injury, it appears those individuals removed the other elements that were in favour of the deal! All under the guise of “protecting the contract”, “out of principle” and all under the watchful eyes of ALPA! By now it must be painfully clear that ALPA was a failed experiment! The simple fact is that ALPA, with all its benefits and shortcomings and politics, is not a Canadian organization and is not for Canadian pilots. Similar events took place with Canada 3000 that it charged in overpromising, underdelivering, and in the end running away when there was no money coming in. Another example would be air Canada walking away. Canada and the challenges unique to its pilots are not appreciated fully.

If you must have a union, have one that is for you, its constitution makes sense, and it follows common sense. There are other choices in Canada, not to mention the one you can make for yourself. And on top of all that, negotiate! No one has ever reached a “good deal” through antagonization, walking away from talks, and arbitration! Rebuild your relationships, amongst yourselves and with your employer to arrive at a mutually agreeable and prosperous solution. You’ve done it in the past, there is no reason you can’t do it in the future!
Ummm, I was actually at Canada 3000; please explain how ALPA was in any way culpable for anything that went down.

As far as what has occurred in recent months at WJ, well, no system is perfect. It is all about politics, regardless of how employees organize themselves. There will always be people who are unhappy with the result of employee/employee negotiations. Always. Today is is you. Next time it might be me. That is life. To you I would say, “Suck it up, buttercup.”


Life isn’t fair. Get over yourself and move on. Enjoy what time you have left on the planet. I’m off to go jump off a cliff. That’s one way how I deal with resentment. You should find something outside of work that does it for you.

Cheers, friend.

John
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Yycjetdriver »

gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am
elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
With the highest rate of unemployment......
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fish4life
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by fish4life »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:38 am
gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am
elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
With the highest rate of unemployment......
Pretty sure Transat, Sunwing, Porter have higher levels of unemployment.

AC pilots should be happy as well because it will make it harder for AC to ask us for another reduced MMG if WJ is getting full pay
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Yycjetdriver »

fish4life wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:41 am
Yycjetdriver wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:38 am
gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am

Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
With the highest rate of unemployment......
Pretty sure Transat, Sunwing, Porter have higher levels of unemployment.

AC pilots should be happy as well because it will make it harder for AC to ask us for another reduced MMG if WJ is getting full pay
Was referring to airlines actually operating.
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Dias
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Dias »

gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
At the sake of their co-workers jobs. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but the remaining pilots are at full pay because the other half are gone. Different cultures I guess.
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kiaszceski
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by kiaszceski »

gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am
elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
Okay, if that is what matters...
So you sacrificed your junior pilots to have your full pay whereas they are struggling to meet ends and some of them are losing wives, kids, and houses?
Nice mentality.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

The WENMEC has been doing a great job. I'm sorry to hear that the WJAMEC is not living up to your expectations.

If you are so upset with their performance, please let ALPA Canada know your thoughts.
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elite
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by elite »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:36 am
Ummm, I was actually at Canada 3000; please explain how ALPA was in any way culpable for anything that went down...
overpromised, underdelivered, walked away! When they initially campaigned to come in, there were promises of Air Canada wages. After the mergers and 911, discussion quickly changed to pay cuts and furlough and ALPA shutting down their so called helpline website when dues stopped coming in. Even ALPA acknowledges this shortcoming, odd that you keep trying to justify and defend it!
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Longtimer
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Longtimer »

Do you think the original bargaining group would have done better under the new private ownership in todays reality? I highly doubt it.
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Mostly Harmless »

kiaszceski wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:52 am some of them are losing wives, kids...?
If a person's wife actually left them because they were laid off, maybe she wasn't a keeper to begin with, IE: she wasn't in the marriage for the right reasons and this was just inevitable. The vows are, for better or for worse. Or, there were other problems in the marriage before the layoff and this was, again, just inevitable with time.

These are difficult times and everyone is learning that there is no such thing as security when it comes to life and income. Uncertainty is something you have to deal with, and sometimes it opens new opportunities that lead you to a better place, it's all in how you deal with your emotions because no one can control the hand life deals you. The union is not who laid you off, that decision was made by the company. Looking at the other employee groups, the pilots had the least number of layoffs so I see that as the union having done well protecting our careers. Not perfection, but they have done better than those who had no protection. People much more vulnerable than us (the CSA's, the Ground Handlers, the Office staff, the FA's... the list goes on) have lost their jobs long ago. It seems your anger and frustrations are misplaced on who was actually responsible for the events unfolding in your life. Worse yet, it is no one group. A disease has no one to blame, then bad Government policy followed by more bad Government policy, a Public in fear, a Media that feeds on fear, Bankers, Company Executives, a Union, and many more. All had parts to play. Some parts larger, some smaller but no single entity or person is to blame.

I know this won't help right now but perhaps it will when you are ready. All of life's pain and misery is brought about by ourselves trying to hold onto the way things are right now. We have our ducks lined up and we like it, and we are going to do everything we can to keep those ducks lined up. The problem is, that's not how the universe works. The universe is in constant change. So, if times are good, enjoy them because things will change. If times are bad, enjoy them because thing will change... or as they say in the simulator, enjoy your emergency.
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Blue42
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Blue42 »

kiaszceski wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:52 am
gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am
elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
Okay, if that is what matters...
So you sacrificed your junior pilots to have your full pay whereas they are struggling to meet ends and some of them are losing wives, kids, and houses?
Nice mentality.
Yup, and many junior pilots with huge bills to pay back to the company for vacation and stat holidays taken, many sitting at Encore and not getting trained at a 70% pay cut. Meanwhile a few complaining about now sitting one reserve and trying to read the contact, or senior 787 guy tired for supporting juniors while complaining he’s $20 short on per diems because of US exchange rate in MIA. Awesome
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jjj
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by jjj »

kiaszceski wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:52 am
gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am
elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
Okay, if that is what matters...
So you sacrificed your junior pilots to have your full pay whereas they are struggling to meet ends and some of them are losing wives, kids, and houses?
Nice mentality.
Nobody from the rank-and-file sacrificed anyone. This situation unfolded without a vote from the membership. I make no issue about that one way or the other. I only wish to dispel any notion that the junior pilots were sacrificed at the hands of the more senior guys. Had this deal gone to a vote - it would have likely passed.

Cheers.
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cloak
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cloak »

The recent events require some somber reflection to move forward. Whether because of ALPA’s constitution, some perceived notion of “principle”, or spite; failure to negotiate, to listen to reason, and to consult with the pilot group, resulted in a decision by a few individuals and in such slim majority, which was short-sided and will cause harm to many pilots for long.

At the same time, a perspective of the greater landscape reveals that the federal government has simply failed aviation industry and instead of a sector wide aid package, like the U.S, has busied itself in micromanagement and effectively become a large shareholder in its former crown corporation again, which makes its fair regulation of the industry even more challenging. Add to that is the erosion of market share of all Canadian carriers to foreign carriers under the mismanagement of the liberal regime.

For these reasons, not accepting a reasonable company offer will further delay recovery, and put the corporation and its staff at a greater disadvantage, the effects of which will be felt for long. This is a substantial threat and for all WestJetters it requires renewed trust and loyalty to the corporation and to one another to recover and prosper again. For pilots, some sincere reflection is needed to determine whether or not ALPA has been a good return on investment.
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Mach1
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Mach1 »

cloak wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:53 pm The recent events require some somber reflection to move forward. Whether because of ALPA’s constitution, some perceived notion of “principle”, or spite; failure to negotiate, to listen to reason, and to consult with the pilot group, resulted in a decision by a few individuals and in such slim majority, which was short-sided and will cause harm to many pilots for long.

At the same time, a perspective of the greater landscape reveals that the federal government has simply failed aviation industry and instead of a sector wide aid package, like the U.S, has busied itself in micromanagement and effectively become a large shareholder in its former crown corporation again, which makes its fair regulation of the industry even more challenging. Add to that is the erosion of market share of all Canadian carriers to foreign carriers under the mismanagement of the liberal regime.

For these reasons, not accepting a reasonable company offer will further delay recovery, and put the corporation and its staff at a greater disadvantage, the effects of which will be felt for long. This is a substantial threat and for all WestJetters it requires renewed trust and loyalty to the corporation and to one another to recover and prosper again. For pilots, some sincere reflection is needed to determine whether or not ALPA has been a good return on investment.
Another amazingly one sided opinion. Another management propaganda message about the pilots needing to be loyal to the company, about the pilots sacrificing for the company, about everyone and everything bending to the will of management. Where was the company's loyalty to the employees? Where was the will to negotiate a compromise for the sake of this great recovery? 415 or 0 in a take it or leave it offer with no discussion about any middle ground. Keep those management messages to the paupers coming... or maybe realize that it took two parties to wind up in this situation and it's been the management who has been unwilling to negotiate under any circumstances. It's the management's actions that resulted in the union showing up on property in the first place. Clive's words, companies get the union they deserve... a wise piece of advice he forgot to live by.
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CaptainHaddock
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by CaptainHaddock »

gswartz wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:38 am
elite wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:25 am It should be painfully clear to WestJet pilots by now that they were let down by a few individuals who did not even trust them and made the decision for them as benevolent kings do for their subjects.
Ummm, ok

Westjet pilots flying in April and onwards are now being paid FULL PAY for their position.
100% MMG plus the 20% WSP(ESP). Full WAWCON as per the contract.
For the first time ever, WJ pilots are actually the highest paid airline pilots in Canada right now.
Is that tongue in cheek?, the 20% of the unaffected pilot group is pleased as punch I am guessing-not to sure about the rest that downgraded, switched bases, bumped to Encore or got furloughed, not to mention the 115 Encore pilots that were expecting recall either.
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cloak
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cloak »

Mach1 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:00 pm
Another amazingly one sided opinion. Another management propaganda message about the pilots needing to be loyal to the company, about the pilots sacrificing for the company, about everyone and everything bending to the will of management. Where was the company's loyalty to the employees? Where was the will to negotiate a compromise for the sake of this great recovery? 415 or 0 in a take it or leave it offer with no discussion about any middle ground. Keep those management messages to the paupers coming... or maybe realize that it took two parties to wind up in this situation and it's been the management who has been unwilling to negotiate under any circumstances. It's the management's actions that resulted in the union showing up on property in the first place. Clive's words, companies get the union they deserve... a wise piece of advice he forgot to live by.
There are a number of pilots who perceive any message contrary to their own narrow perception as having come from “management”. You seem to be one of them! However, most know that had the company offer been put to a vote, it would have passed with great majority. In the place of those new reps, most would not be pressured to carry the burden of that decision alone, especially in such slim majority, and would definitely want to consult the larger pilot group.

But you are saying that had the company offered something between 0 and 415 layoffs, it would have been better than 0 layoffs? Please do tell!
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Mostly Harmless wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:23 am
kiaszceski wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:52 am some of them are losing wives, kids...?
If a person's wife actually left them because they were laid off, maybe she wasn't a keeper to begin with, IE: she wasn't in the marriage for the right reasons and this was just inevitable. The vows are, for better or for worse. Or, there were other problems in the marriage before the layoff and this was, again, just inevitable with time.
Funny, my spouse likes to remind me that she's with me in spite of me being a pilot.
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