More WJ layoffs

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CaptainHaddock
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by CaptainHaddock »

Current hours, no. But all the flying they have announced so far will have the remaining pilots flying full blocks this summer I am guessing. YXX-YYZ?, not sure what the plan is with city pairings like that (have we ever done that?). There is talk by EVP’s of ‘digital alignment’ of the Swoop product at WestJet which certainly peaks my interest (tango airline became an AC fare) or maybe something else. 4 slots a day to Gatwick and now 2 slots a day to Heathrow. It looks like they are planning a full frontal assault-so to carry all the pilots for 12 months (when they didn’t need them) to spooling up (and furloughing) does seem pretty silly.
We now have 6 Dreamliner (and 4 more coming this year) that will need to be crewed, especially if they plan to do anything more exciting then YYC-YYZ.
So half the furloughed pilots sit home with 7-12 years layoff pay and the other half go sit at Encore as imaginary pilots being paid by Encore to sit on their hands. At least the pilots remaining are at full contract pay. It just doesn’t look like a real financial or operational win for the company. Unless they think the recovery will be much longer or they want to give up market share to Flair, AC etc. Keep in mind WJ already reduced the pilot group by almost a third last year, so they have already reduced their pilot pool.
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Blue42
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Blue42 »

CaptainHaddock wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:07 pm Current hours, no. But all the flying they have announced so far will have the remaining pilots flying full blocks this summer I am guessing. YXX-YYZ?, not sure what the plan is with city pairings like that (have we ever done that?). There is talk by EVP’s of ‘digital alignment’ of the Swoop product at WestJet which certainly peaks my interest (tango airline became an AC fare) or maybe something else. 4 slots a day to Gatwick and now 2 slots a day to Heathrow. It looks like they are planning a full frontal assault-so to carry all the pilots for 12 months (when they didn’t need them) to spooling up (and furloughing) does seem pretty silly.
We now have 6 Dreamliner (and 4 more coming this year) that will need to be crewed, especially if they plan to do anything more exciting then YYC-YYZ.
So half the furloughed pilots sit home with 7-12 years layoff pay and the other half go sit at Encore as imaginary pilots being paid by Encore to sit on their hands. At least the pilots remaining are at full contract pay. It just doesn’t look like a real financial or operational win for the company. Unless they think the recovery will be much longer or they want to give up market share to Flair, AC etc. Keep in mind WJ already reduced the pilot group by almost a third last year, so they have already reduced their pilot pool.

The majority of the flying announced this week is Q flying, 4 city pairs were on the jet. 1%, maybe 2, of overall flying. All depends what old flying is planned to come back this summer. As for the LHR slots, it’s doubtful the flights will be operated I think. These are adhoc slots that we only hit because of COVID cuts of other airlines. WestJet wants permanent slots not seasonal. I hope I’m wrong but the levels of flying needed to bring back layoffs is still a long ways off.
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cloak
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by cloak »

ALPApolicy wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:47 am
As far as what a union can or should do, that's all contained in the Canada Labour Code, common law, and ALPA's Constitution & Bylaws. ALPA violated that Constitution when it FORCED the PTA through, which sold out the seniority rights of the junior members. Where was your opposition then, or did the PTA not affect your self interest?....
Oh dear more presumptions about my self interests! The PTA was never a good idea. The three parties that entered it: WestJet, its pilots and Encore pilots did so for different reasons or self interests as you like to say, and ALL are unhappy with its ramifications now. Like the stock market everyone is happy to buy into it when things were moving up, but in the decline everyone is unhappy! If no one else is doing it, there usually are good reasons!

As for the current situation, not extending a form of the existing MOA as you say for self interests or out of spite for actions of some members is a similar mistake that will cost all parties involved more headache. That is all. Have a nice week end!
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CaptainHaddock
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by CaptainHaddock »

Blue42 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:01 pm
CaptainHaddock wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:07 pm Current hours, no. But all the flying they have announced so far will have the remaining pilots flying full blocks this summer I am guessing. YXX-YYZ?, not sure what the plan is with city pairings like that (have we ever done that?). There is talk by EVP’s of ‘digital alignment’ of the Swoop product at WestJet which certainly peaks my interest (tango airline became an AC fare) or maybe something else. 4 slots a day to Gatwick and now 2 slots a day to Heathrow. It looks like they are planning a full frontal assault-so to carry all the pilots for 12 months (when they didn’t need them) to spooling up (and furloughing) does seem pretty silly.
We now have 6 Dreamliner (and 4 more coming this year) that will need to be crewed, especially if they plan to do anything more exciting then YYC-YYZ.
So half the furloughed pilots sit home with 7-12 years layoff pay and the other half go sit at Encore as imaginary pilots being paid by Encore to sit on their hands. At least the pilots remaining are at full contract pay. It just doesn’t look like a real financial or operational win for the company. Unless they think the recovery will be much longer or they want to give up market share to Flair, AC etc. Keep in mind WJ already reduced the pilot group by almost a third last year, so they have already reduced their pilot pool.



The majority of the flying announced this week is Q flying, 4 city pairs were on the jet. 1%, maybe 2, of overall flying. All depends what old flying is planned to come back this summer. As for the LHR slots, it’s doubtful the flights will be operated I think. These are adhoc slots that we only hit because of COVID cuts of other airlines. WestJet wants permanent slots not seasonal. I hope I’m wrong but the levels of flying needed to bring back layoffs is still a long ways off.
They plan on flying all previous 42 domestic destinations this summer, but you are correct as to what the frequency will be is yet to be seen. The US border/flying also is yet to be decided. I still think it silly to carry 2/3rds of the pilots through the worst of it to shed more at the rebound. It will all come out in the wash I am sure.
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Launchpad1
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Launchpad1 »

For us furloughed guys does anyone know if we keep our flight benefits after March 31st?
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George Taylor
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by George Taylor »

Launchpad1 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:25 am For us furloughed guys does anyone know if we keep our flight benefits after March 31st?
NOPE
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by pacman007 »

Why would anyone take a furlough if they had a option to go to encore? You would have health benefits LTD STD and flight benefits?
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Yycjetdriver »

pacman007 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:25 pm Why would anyone take a furlough if they had a option to go to encore? You would have health benefits LTD STD and flight benefits?
Troll
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Dias
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Dias »

What happened? Was the company bluffing?
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chromeuser
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by chromeuser »

Just curious to know why the NC rejected the latest deal offered by the company?
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by fish4life »

chromeuser wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:51 pm Just curious to know why the NC rejected the latest deal offered by the company?
Probably the same reason why I don’t sell everything on Kijiji, not good enough
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by throwaway123 »

chromeuser wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:51 pm Just curious to know why the NC rejected the latest deal offered by the company?
Because sometimes you need to stand firm even if it hurts you in the short term.

Long term, it sends a message to WestJet that the pilots aren't going to be walked over and next time they go to negotiate the company will know that they are willing walk away if need be. Covid will be done and dusted in a year, and any contractual losses are forever.

I wish ACPA did that from time to time. The pilots need to be protected from themselves now and again, the AC Cargo LOU is an example of that. Should have never made it to a vote with a 10% discounted wage. Why the @#$! we were negotiating permanent contract changes during the worst crisis in our industry in decades is beyond me.
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notwhoyouthinkIam
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:53 pm
pacman007 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:25 pm Why would anyone take a furlough if they had a option to go to encore? You would have health benefits LTD STD and flight benefits?
Troll
No, that is a valid question.

Here I am, a furloughed Encore pilot, reading that Encore is too shit for some of you jet folks.

But then again, you're just pissed that our MEC has fought for our jobs whereas your MEC made a unanimous decision without consulting those who would be affected.
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betster
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by betster »

It's not really anyone's business why someone would take a furlough over encore but some reasons include : not being able to uproot family for what is hopefully a short term situation, not being able to afford the hotels required for commuting, weighing the costs of being put in year one FO salary vs CEWS and not comming out far enough ahead, just plain not wanting to. There are many reasons why someone would rather a furlough. Maybe focus on your own situation. Nobody is happy now (except maybe the top senior people that kept their position and got a full snap back). Even they might be missing the good old days of overtime and dropping pairings.
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by jazzyboy »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:57 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:53 pm
pacman007 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:25 pm Why would anyone take a furlough if they had a option to go to encore? You would have health benefits LTD STD and flight benefits?
Troll
No, that is a valid question.

Here I am, a furloughed Encore pilot, reading that Encore is too shit for some of you jet folks.

But then again, you're just pissed that our MEC has fought for our jobs whereas your MEC made a unanimous decision without consulting those who would be affected.

No one should have to defend the career decisions that they make for their families or themselves but here it goes. You really need to redirect your anger man....or just get over it. Cause here I am, a furloughed WestJet pilot as of this morning. IT SUCKS!! But it is seniority and it's great when you have it and sucks when you don't. Your attitude comes across that you are upset because I decided to take a lay off instead of bumping another Encore pilot from their job. It must be because I am just too good to fly for encore.....COME ON. No one is out to screw you over. My decision doesn't have anything remotely to do with Encore being "too shit". I think flying the Q400 would be a blast, but there are other things in life besides flying and I am going to take advantage of the time off and lay off pay. I really hoped that there would be another MOA going forward. Am I mad at ALPA for giving up my job? Yes. The way everything this last month played out is pathetic but it is what it is. It will take some time to come to terms with the fact that getting a recall will most likely be for Swoop initially. But I can say after some time that I am happy ALPA finally took a stand against WestJet. For the last 5 ish years they have been walking all over the employee groups and maybe it is short term pain for long term gain. Let's just hope for a recovery for aviation this summer/fall and that we still have airlines to work at. Attacking your fellow pilots does not help.
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by hithere »

Did the WestJet guys get notice of layoff(I assume the company had to give 30 days notice as per your contract) or had you already received layoff notice and it took effect yesterday? Are you going to be on EI or CEWS?
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ALPApolicy
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by ALPApolicy »

hithere wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:23 pm Did the WestJet guys get notice of layoff(I assume the company had to give 30 days notice as per your contract) or had you already received layoff notice and it took effect yesterday? Are you going to be on EI or CEWS?
The company issued the 30 day notice just prior to March 1st, if I recall correctly. Some of those laid off from Mainline (assuming they have the seniority, system wide) will exercise transfer rights under the PTA and bump into Encore, displacing some of those pilots, although I believe Encore has recalled 250 pilots so the math seems to indicate some pilots will still get laid off and not find work at Encore.
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

ALPApolicy wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:36 pm
hithere wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:23 pm Did the WestJet guys get notice of layoff(I assume the company had to give 30 days notice as per your contract) or had you already received layoff notice and it took effect yesterday? Are you going to be on EI or CEWS?
The company issued the 30 day notice just prior to March 1st, if I recall correctly. Some of those laid off from Mainline (assuming they have the seniority, system wide) will exercise transfer rights under the PTA and bump into Encore, displacing some of those pilots, although I believe Encore has recalled 250 pilots so the math seems to indicate some pilots will still get laid off and not find work at Encore.
Any WJ pilot who is laid off on April 1, 2021 who exercised their bump down rights and who had the seniority to hold a position at Encore was given a spot at Encore.

There may have been Encore pilots or lower seniority WJ pilots bumped out of Encore, but nobody should have been rejected their PTA rights.
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by Mostly Harmless »

newlygrounded wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:49 am So what would you have preferred? Every is unhappy but nobody ever says what the fix would've been
I'm not sure if you are asking me or simply_no_one. I'll answer because it's pretty obvious what simply_no_one meant... put everyone who's job was effected (as in, no longer actually employed) on EI rather than paying companies your salary to keep you "employed".

The EI system could have been changed to pay out the current level of support but, at least you would have honest numbers on how many workers were unemployed and the direct impact on the economy for everyone to see rather than hiding those numbers in a fraudulent manner.
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betster
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Re: More WJ layoffs

Post by betster »

It's questionable if the amount the government is paying the company to keep people on payroll is being completely passed on to employees. There are reports of people in other companies such as porter getting a higher cews payment than westjet employees. Also if people are on payroll why are they losing certain benefits such as flight benefits? Why did laid off flight attendants keep flight benefits but not the pilots?
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