Competing Union

[oldncold]

in 1999 the Saskatchewan nurses union went on strike the govt of the day ordered them back to work under essential services act . the union refused and defied the back to work order. then filed a constitutional charter of rights challenge. govt quickly went back to the negotiating table and hammered out a deal . .

Moral of the story no one owns you! only you and or your representatives allow them to purchase a specific portion of your time and skills and ALWAYS HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE unless they pay you what you feel is fair. for that privilege..

Now of course. we don't live in a perfect world do we , there are egos and emotions that do get elevated in those bargaining sessions. . the question of this thread in my mind is threefold:
a) would you be better off both individually and as collective group without a union? no union dues , able to call the big boss directly without 4 layers of internal bureaucracy, no representation. if ya had a bad day etc

b) would the replacement be any better? would they give the shirt off your back to get the agreement . . / would you have to wait another 3 years to get an agreement buy changing or starting over.?

c) do you as a collective group have the fortitude to defy the govt back to work orders in order to get a proper settlement . if not then the above former 2 options are mute points. the govt can order anyone back to work but if the solidarity is 100 percent . the trains still wont run ,planes wont fly and short of gun to ones noodle telling me to work the guys and gals with the skills and the hands on tools win .

disclosure currently not affiliated with any airline ,but from all the tortured whining here about getting shafted by unions or mgt kinda of glad

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

What are the legal repercussions to union representatives who defy a back to work order?

[oldncold]

they can face hefty fines or potential time in the crowbar hotel. but if the membership sticks with the reps or if the reps covering their ass say go back to work and membership defy s the union reps with 100 percent solidarity in support to stay out. what is govt going to do? answer posture and be verbally bellicose but not much for they don't have the enough of the skill sets to make the system work.

The day the Canadian govt do 'das boot 'kicking down doors of hard working Canadians who are peacefully exercising their right to withhold their knowledge and skills also guaranteed under the freedom of person in the charter. Then that is the day they start having armed insurrection. because it demonstrates to the masses dictatorship by political elites which open up a much bigger can of worms. .something that 99 percent of bureaucrats and politicians fear ..an uprising of very pissed off and defiant group of union members , taxpayers. . note over the past century n a half 125000 Canadians have died to protect those values. of freedom of religion, freedom of expression and assembly. that is why the charter says freedom of assembly. that was tested in supreme court of Canada and the union won...

What is the flip side? well in a nutshell > if the previous contract has been fulfilled by both parties ,(employer and the employees) has expired and new agreement cannot be reached. Employers legally do have the right lock out workers and in extreme circumstances. 'do what pres1981 Ronald Regan did and fire the whole lot' and start over from scratch. In practical terms a private company firing the whole lot while trying to make a buck vs the faa govt funded controllers highly unlikely but still a risk to consider. the fed govt can force parties to SUBMIT TO binding arbitration and force a contract. if the guys n gall with the skills stick together. you win .

True its easy to say ,yet difficult to stay that committed. Then execute your> out of work/ on strike game plan, when you have mortgage n hungry mouths to feed .Employers playing hardball use that fear to present. low-ball offers to get the best deal for their shareholders. Maybe your existing union knows that fear of its membership. and its bargaining to the averages in the group?

again it comes down to how badly you to want win big ? what are you going to do to make that happen? how long are the big brass set or big ovaries (im not sexist in any way) do you want the stand up to wawcon being dictated without your consent// you do have alot of control but only if you exercise it not abdicate it. the trick is when ,how much. and using it smartly so that the employer knows how capable your collective group is, without forcing the employer to shutter its doors for good.

[ALPApolicy]

oldncold, WJ pilots were not represented by a labour union from 1996 to 2017, and it took two organizing drives before we became certified. Everyone is well aware of the issues involved. You don't need to spend anymore time giving your perspective on labour unions. And since you're not an airline employee, maybe run along and go play somewhere else.

[Dionysus]

Just happy our grievance chair used his Alpa days off between Xmas and New Years to create a week of holidays. He must have passed the advice along to the new yyc captain grievance enforcement guy LH to build the Alpa days off before snd after Xmas

[altiplano]

Just happy our grievance chair used his Alpa days off between Xmas and New Years to create a week of holidays. He must have passed the advice along to the new yyc captain grievance enforcement guy LH to build the Alpa days off before snd after Xmas

That's brutal. Line for thee, but not for me...

[rudder]

Just happy our grievance chair used his Alpa days off between Xmas and New Years to create a week of holidays. He must have passed the advice along to the new yyc captain grievance enforcement guy LH to build the Alpa days off before snd after Xmas

All of those type of issues can (and should) be dealt with in the WJA MEC Policy Manual.

Ask for a copy.

[slob driver]

Just happy our grievance chair used his Alpa days off between Xmas and New Years to create a week of holidays. He must have passed the advice along to the new yyc captain grievance enforcement guy LH to build the Alpa days off before snd after Xmas

All of those type of issues can (and should) be dealt with in the WJA MEC Policy Manual.

Ask for a copy.

The WJA ALPA policy manual is available on the public WJA ALPA website and app and should be required reading for all WJA pilots.
As for the grievance chair using ALPA days to take Christmas and New Year’s Eve off, when one looks up his schedule on Flica, he is working through December 25 and finishes early on the 26th on a pairing that begins on December 22. Looks like lots of ALPA days off for him in December, but when I reached out to a rep to query, it was confirmed that there are a great deal of mediations and arbitration’s in December. As well, there is no ALPA day off marked for the 31st of December for him, just a regular day off. Those are the facts as any WJA pilot can see on Flica.

[Dionysus]

So a lot of mediation arbitration between Christmas and New Years? Lol . How about the yyc captain whip LH lol. That’s even better! But I see he’s blocked his schedule now

[Blue42]

So a lot of mediation arbitration between Christmas and New Years? Lol . How about the yyc captain whip LH lol. That’s even better! But I see he’s blocked his schedule now

Isn’t it nice to have the time to sit at home studying other guys/gals schedules, who are stepping up to do the work that you won’t……

[ALPApolicy]

Just happy our grievance chair used his Alpa days off between Xmas and New Years to create a week of holidays. He must have passed the advice along to the new yyc captain grievance enforcement guy LH to build the Alpa days off before snd after Xmas

It is very easy to pick and choose what "facts" of an argument that one wants to present. A fuller divulgation of all the facts of an argument usually reveal a different assessment of a situation. Your post might have more weight if it showed how much time the two individuals spend on union matters and what they are doing in that time.

Dionysus, might I ask what the purpose of your post was? Character assasination of two fellow employees or criticism of ALPA as the bargaining agent? I've been guilty of both offences in the past so I am not judging you.

Thank you to LH for representing me as a YYC captain and for the Grievance Chair for his work.

John Swallow

[Dionysus]

Here’s the thing. We pay a lot of dues to have these guys work for us. You don’t pee in the bathtub by putting Alpa days like LH before the 25th and all the way to New Years. under the guidance of CT who also put a week of days between Christmas and New Years before and after important dates that all us try not work. You are under scrutiny for these jobs and don’t go building artificial weeks of holidays saving vacation points up for prime weeks. It stinks and we don’t all have a lifestyle like yours policy. Still just facts. Not picking or choosing since it needs to be called out

[ALPApolicy]

Here’s the thing. We pay a lot of dues to have these guys work for us. You don’t pee in the bathtub by putting Alpa days like LH before the 25th and all the way to New Years. under the guidance of CT who also put a week of days between Christmas and New Years before and after important dates that all us try not work. You are under scrutiny for these jobs and don’t go building artificial weeks of holidays saving vacation points up for prime weeks. It stinks and we don’t all have a lifestyle like yours policy. Still just facts. Not picking or choosing since it needs to be called out

If I parse your response correctly, I believe you are saying the original post had mostly character assassination and a little ALPA critique. Fair enough.

I haven't checked to verify your info and I won't do so because absent corruption these things turn out to be inaccurate or not the whole picture. How do you feel about the rest of the work done by the ALPA volunteers (including those two you mentioned)? Do you feel it is good value for your money and do you believe that people like LH and CT step up to serve in order to get a juicier schedule?

[fish4life]

A friend of mine was a rep at a different ALPA carrier, the amount of work (I’m talking answering calls and emails 31 days a month) he put in more than offsets getting Christmas off

[Dionysus]

It doesn’t matter how many calls and emails you get. It’s still paid flight relief on Alpa days so it’s not like they are doing free work. You don’t take advantage of the position to get a schedule advantage on your peers who you represent and just for fun I looked at the VR captain rep who openly says he doesn’t want to commute around Christmas and he put a week of alpa days off from the 19 20 21 22 23 to work the system. Ask people what they bid in points for holidays there.

[ALPApolicy]

It doesn’t matter how many calls and emails you get. It’s still paid flight relief on Alpa days so it’s not like they are doing free work. You don’t take advantage of the position to get a schedule advantage on your peers who you represent and just for fun I looked at the VR captain rep who openly says he doesn’t want to commute around Christmas and he put a week of alpa days off from the 19 20 21 22 23 to work the system. Ask people what they bid in points for holidays there.

I am too busy in the Arizona sun skydiving my butt off to worry about what other people are doing. Work isn't life. I wish you peace and freedom from worry about other people and their lives. I truly do.

I've got my vertical speed record up to 209 mph in my wingsuit. Tomorrow I'm going to try to get 220. Yesterday I lost control at 195 and today is a recovery. I'm pretty sore.

Take care.

[pumpkinpatch]

It doesn’t matter how many calls and emails you get. It’s still paid flight relief on Alpa days so it’s not like they are doing free work. You don’t take advantage of the position to get a schedule advantage on your peers who you represent and just for fun I looked at the VR captain rep who openly says he doesn’t want to commute around Christmas and he put a week of alpa days off from the 19 20 21 22 23 to work the system. Ask people what they bid in points for holidays there.

Every single union volunteer/rep I have known over the years does way more work in a month than any flight release/union day credit they get. Way more. They don't look at their schedule when they get a phone call on day and deny the call "because today is not technically a union day"... They pick up, and they do their job. Where the union days are placed are largely irrelevant for anyone other than people who have frequent in person meetings such as Negots or Grievance (possibly LEC Chair if they are dealing with disciplinary stuff). Instead of complaining, maybe volunteer yourself and see what union work is really like.

[imjustlurking]

How dare someone take extra work when offered! The only thing that will happen if they don't take it is that, either somebody else will take it or the flight will be cancelled.

Last I checked, having your employer cancel flights is not beneficial to you, nor the company. It's also not going to force their hand into recalling bodies.

[Mach1]

How dare someone take extra work when offered! The only thing that will happen if they don't take it is that, either somebody else will take it or the flight will be cancelled.

Last I checked, having your employer cancel flights is not beneficial to you, nor the company. It's also not going to force their hand into recalling bodies.

Come and listen to my story about place named Rouge, where pilots got together and overtime refused...
A poor airline, barely kept their pilots fed,
And then one day into work they were drafted,
And along came wages 2.5 times more than the regular shaft.

Money that is, actual gold, taxes paid.

First thing you know pilots are paid like millionaires
Ontario folk said, "Brilliant move over there."
Said, "2.5 is the place you ought to be."
So they refused time and a half and made some big money....

Houses, swimming pools, movie stars.

[imjustlurking]

How dare someone take extra work when offered! The only thing that will happen if they don't take it is that, either somebody else will take it or the flight will be cancelled.

Last I checked, having your employer cancel flights is not beneficial to you, nor the company. It's also not going to force their hand into recalling bodies.

Come and listen to my story about place named Rouge, where pilots got together and overtime refused...
A poor airline, barely kept their pilots fed,
And then one day into work they were drafted,
And along came wages 2.5 times more than the regular shaft.

Money that is, actual gold, taxes paid.

First thing you know pilots are paid like millionaires
Ontario folk said, "Brilliant move over there."
Said, "2.5 is the place you ought to be."
So they refused time and a half and made some big money....

Houses, swimming pools, movie stars.

Apples and hand grenades.

If we were talking about how Swoop pilots are paid less to do the same work as WJ pilots, you would have a valid argument, but we are talking about union reps taking overtime when pilots are still on layoff.