Just a question for Westjet employees and I'll preface this by saying that I'm not trying to slag the benefits or program at Westjet but I'd really like to know if anyone is concerned with the prospect of no pension at the end of thier career? I understand that young people don't always consider that they will one day get old and not be able to work one day, or not want to, or want to retire early. I am in the middle of my career and although I still enjoy working and flying airplanes, will probably opt to retire as early as I can, being that there's things I'd rather do than work. I have the security of a handsome pension and have made a good salary most of my career with only a short layoff at one point.
How does Westjet renumerate pilots after they reach retirement age, is there a pension that I'm unaware of?
retirement age...now what?
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Consider the ESP program a self directed Pension.
By year 2 you can save away 30k a year into the coffers. this contribution amount raises annually with your salary increase.
Pull the money out of WestJet if you want, invest it if you want, pay off your mortgage in a real hurry if you want.
If you spend your money on bitches and booze you will not have a dime when you retire.
Personally I prefer having the management responsibility of my own retirement $.
jjj
By year 2 you can save away 30k a year into the coffers. this contribution amount raises annually with your salary increase.
Pull the money out of WestJet if you want, invest it if you want, pay off your mortgage in a real hurry if you want.
If you spend your money on bitches and booze you will not have a dime when you retire.
Personally I prefer having the management responsibility of my own retirement $.
jjj
The Employee Share Purchase (ESP) program is one of the best in the country and can be used as your own self directed pension plan. The beauty of this is that you can change your investing style to suit your needs. After a year the shares are yours to keep or sell.
The force will be with you, always
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just curious
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Blachang,I am in the middle of my career and although I still enjoy working and flying airplanes, will probably opt to retire as early as I can, being that there's things I'd rather do than work. I have the security of a handsome pension and have made a good salary most of my career with only a short layoff at one point.
Congratulations on being one of the few in the industry with a pension. Outside of AC, and the Federal departmants, there are few pensioned pilots around.
While I do not work at WJ,AC,TC or the Forces, I have a bit of money tucked into RRSPs. Sadly, the same cannot be said for many in the business.
WestJets ESP seems to be one of the few chances that a professional pilot can make it to the end of their days without resorting to the same diet and accomodations as their college years.
blachang
What makes you think a DC pension will be around for anyone's retirement? Its far from a guarantee. I'll take the ESP anyday over it... the nest egg has grown much faster by buying, and then selling WestJet ESP. I'm way ahead of track from where I'd be with a pension.
What makes you think a DC pension will be around for anyone's retirement? Its far from a guarantee. I'll take the ESP anyday over it... the nest egg has grown much faster by buying, and then selling WestJet ESP. I'm way ahead of track from where I'd be with a pension.
Do pensions die with companies or are they protected? - I don't know.
If AC was to vanish tomorrow (I don't wan't them to, my friends work there) do contributions vanish?
If WestJet was to vanish tomorrow - I still own every penny that I liquidated from WS and moved to other portfolios.
jjj
If AC was to vanish tomorrow (I don't wan't them to, my friends work there) do contributions vanish?
If WestJet was to vanish tomorrow - I still own every penny that I liquidated from WS and moved to other portfolios.
jjj
Ask a US Airways pilot how they feel about a pension plan. I was on an HF route not long ago listening to 123.45 and two of them were debating over where to apply after age 60 (which was 6 months away for them both)
... a Walmart Greeter or Hooter's Dishwasher were the choices.
I think I'll put a sell in for Monday.
... a Walmart Greeter or Hooter's Dishwasher were the choices.
I think I'll put a sell in for Monday.
I believe the laws that govern pensions are somewhat different between what we have here in Canada and what exists down in the states. There is what you could say marginally better protection here, at least that is what was said to me. This does not of course imply that it is secure. You need only look at the fact that say in the case of AC, the pensions are severely underfunded.
I would not be surprised if at somepoint the defined benefit pension is soon changed to a defined contribution system. The ESP is great, as long as the stock is doing great...
Worse comes to worse... run as an MP, stay 2 terms and I think you will do just fine!
I would not be surprised if at somepoint the defined benefit pension is soon changed to a defined contribution system. The ESP is great, as long as the stock is doing great...
Worse comes to worse... run as an MP, stay 2 terms and I think you will do just fine!
I would be curious to know what the deal is for pensions being there when you get to that stage in your career, I was more curious as to what the Westjet deal is regarding the stock contribution program or options. Needless to say many people got rich in the early days. I would suspect that it would be naive to ecpect the same performance now from the stock but who knows. As jjj mentioned you can take the contributions and manage your own self directed portfolio which is probably best. Many companies offer a stock contribution program and a defined benefits pension which would obviously be the best option. I personally would feel uncomfortable without any sort of company renumeration at retirement after putting in 20 or more years. It would be my guess that if you were hired at Westjet now at say 30-40 years old and had to buy a house and raise kids it may be a tough road ahead to plan for retirement without a pension.
Why zero in on Westjet? The same applies to the majority of Canadian workers and Westjet flight crews will have had many years of incomes in the top 25% of the general population.blachang wrote: It would be my guess that if you were hired at Westjet now at say 30-40 years old and had to buy a house and raise kids it may be a tough road ahead to plan for retirement without a pension.
Tough years ahead for a lot of Canadians, many of whom will never be able to truely retire. Disciplined saving and investing is what is required.
Yup, I would be surprised if the baby boomer generation doesn't completely drain the federal retirement reserve leaving nothing to future generations. Save and invest what you can during your earning years cuz company and federal pension plans may not be the same in 20 years as they are today... then retire somewhere where the cost of living and taxation is half of what it is here and palm trees sway in the afternoon breeze.
Prop 2 Jet,
Success in the ESP program is not dependant on a booming stock price.
When the company matches your contribution, your money is essentially doubled even when the stock price is neutral.
Double your dough and invest elsewhere.
Take a 25 year mortgage and cut it in half over time.
Invest in other stocks.
Blow it all on hookers and blow - whatever.
Once you liquidate your WS stock, you don't have to sweat price changes.
jjj
Success in the ESP program is not dependant on a booming stock price.
When the company matches your contribution, your money is essentially doubled even when the stock price is neutral.
Double your dough and invest elsewhere.
Take a 25 year mortgage and cut it in half over time.
Invest in other stocks.
Blow it all on hookers and blow - whatever.
Once you liquidate your WS stock, you don't have to sweat price changes.
jjj
To put out some numbers for you all.
I will make some assumptions
1. a person were hired this year. (I believe that we will hire 100 or more)
2. If it took 6 years to go capt as well (a fair assumtion I believe)
3. the Stock never goes up 1 cent in 22 years (just a number on a spreadsheet I used) (I am sure you are all capable of seeing what it has done in the past 5 years, I will not say it will repeat the first 5 years or the last 8 months either. Historically it has a fair return, my goals are 10% a year)
You would have roughly $830 000.00 in what you contributed and what the company matched. That is also assuming
1. maxing out at 20% ESP and
2. using 25% stock options for all 22 years.
I am not going to compare our to other plans but I believe that ours is a great system. Since I take mine out after doubling the value of my "investment" it is hard to say where I personaly sit. I do know that my ROI is much greater than 120% as of right now.
These also do not including any OT, Straight time over 85 hours, Profit Share, or Stock Options. (All to be added whenever they are there.
I will make some assumptions
1. a person were hired this year. (I believe that we will hire 100 or more)
2. If it took 6 years to go capt as well (a fair assumtion I believe)
3. the Stock never goes up 1 cent in 22 years (just a number on a spreadsheet I used) (I am sure you are all capable of seeing what it has done in the past 5 years, I will not say it will repeat the first 5 years or the last 8 months either. Historically it has a fair return, my goals are 10% a year)
You would have roughly $830 000.00 in what you contributed and what the company matched. That is also assuming
1. maxing out at 20% ESP and
2. using 25% stock options for all 22 years.
I am not going to compare our to other plans but I believe that ours is a great system. Since I take mine out after doubling the value of my "investment" it is hard to say where I personaly sit. I do know that my ROI is much greater than 120% as of right now.
These also do not including any OT, Straight time over 85 hours, Profit Share, or Stock Options. (All to be added whenever they are there.
Buy property in a big enough city (YUL / YYZ / YHZ etc.) that will get you continued revenue (triplex, duplex... etc...). That is one of the only true investment that will give you income after you retire. Buy now while while it's cheap I'll never rely on a pension in an airline.
I'll never rely on a pension in an airline.-
Machiavelli
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To expand on Airbrakes numbers, after 15 years at WestJet you could have approximately $630,000 in Employee Share Purchase Plan money at 0% return. At 20 years it's just shy of a million at $960,000 also at 0%. No sane investment advisor would have you keep all your eggs in one basket so even at a modest bond return of 4% you'll have about $1,500,000 after 20 years (at 8% it's over $2,400,000). Even if you sat on the $2,400,000 and lived off 4% interest, that's $96,000/year How's that for company renumeration when you retire?
By the way, this does not include the option part of pilot compensation. You could conservatively add another $160,000 to the 15 year plan and $215,000 to the 20 year.
I'd be far more concerned about some suit doling out my pension from some fund that could dry up should my employer go bankrupt. No thanks.
By the way, this does not include the option part of pilot compensation. You could conservatively add another $160,000 to the 15 year plan and $215,000 to the 20 year.
I'd be far more concerned about some suit doling out my pension from some fund that could dry up should my employer go bankrupt. No thanks.
Few points to ponder - at WJ you put in 20% of pre-tax income to the ESP to get matched. At AC our pension contribution is about 6%. We then have 14% income to invest as we want. It would be almost impossible to do better than this. Don't waste brain cells thinking pension rules in Canada and the US are similar - they're not. The biggest threat to airline pensions in Canada is WJ pilots not having one.
