50 Q400 at WJ being farmed out

[DaveP]

Hi,

Please re read my post. In particular the set in stone piece.

Guys,
I'm sure you can appreciate my position in this.
I would love to sit here and debate, but I can't.

Cheers!

[Airbrake]

It will be interesting to see if any of the guys n gals in the WestJet PropJet Q400 class will get the call from AC just like some of the Jazz guys n gals in ground school got from WJ

Guaranteed they will, but only if they apply!

[watermeth]

Hi,
Date of hire carries over.

with all due respect, it would be really great from westjet to change its hiring practices to offer a chance to every pilot in Canada willing to work for a successful airline, and not only to their employees' friends. I know it gave some good results until now, but sometimes being an equal opportunity employer goes in par with being a successful company.
best of luck

[YQLRookie]

First of all, I'd like to say that I'm very excited for this development, but even more so, I hope that the agreement being worked on is beneficial for the pilots. I have little knowledge about the industry, but I hold a lot of respect for you guys up front, and I hope the pilot group can work out a deal to make this happen.

Second of all, it looks like some smaller communities have a lot of hopes riding on these new 'props. There was an article in the Lethbridge Herald today about Westjet's developments, and although "a company spokesperson was not able to confirm Monday that it was one of the routes now proposed", it seems like the Lethbridge County Airport really wants the service, to break down the Air Canada monopoly. Don't know if 70 people would fit in the waiting area, but who knows...

[gonnabeapilot]

An interesting development to say the least. Well I appreciate that nothing is set in stone, the tone that is being set regarding wages and working conditions says one thing to me... that management at Westjet doesn't have any faith in the Westjet brand and that should worry all the employees there.

When Westjet started they paid much less than industry standard. I can completely understand why this was done and agree with the logic behind it. Westjet was a brand new company and having to compete against the likes of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada... two carriers with an established brand and a loyal following. Nobody knew who Westjet was or what they were about. To gain any sort of market-share, Westjet needed to offer their product for a price that was much cheaper than the competition and one of the easiest ways to do that was to use employee wages to establish a lower cost structure. As the company grew (although I would argue with the opinions of some on here and say that although Westjet has had a strong management team, they also benefited from a lot of dumb luck that just happened to put them in the right place at the right time) the wages and working conditions at Westjet improved to where they are today. Westjetters should be proud of their current working conditions and I think they set a good standard for the industry.

However... when it comes to this new regional company, Westjet is no longer the little start-up nobody has heard of. Westjetters love to thump their chest and talk about their 'guest experience', how owners care and all the other reasons that they feel make Westjet the better travel choice. If Westjetters actually believe that this is true, they should feel completely comfortable starting a regional airline with working conditions and wages that are equivalent to, or better than those at Jazz. Saying that wages need to be lower than the established airlines means that management has no faith on their ability to attract passengers through their brand and must rely on their ability to under-cut on price to gain market share. Apparently, this cost advantage won't come from all the innovative initiatives that Westjet likes to brag about. Instead, it will come on the backs of the employees making less than the competition.

The employees at the Air Canada regionals have worked long and hard over the years to make sure that Jazz is one of the highest paid regional operators in North America with some of the best working conditions and every pilot in Canada who has ever touched a turbo-prop has benefitted from this fact. Starting a company that pays 20% less than Jazz and justifying it by saying that one day Westjet Regional will set the bar for working conditions at a regional airline is laughable. Thanks to the work of the pilots who have come before, we're already there. Destroying the wages and working conditions at Westjet's competitors just so the industry can work its way back to the same spot 10 years from now is not beneficial to this industry.

It's time for the "owners" to put their money where their mouth is. If you really feel that Westjet is the be all, end all when it comes to air travel in this country, pay your new regional pilots better than the competition and set them loose. If people really buy into the Westjet image that you're selling, they will choose to travel with Westjet Regional over the competition as long as the price is comparable. And I can guarantee that even with comparable wages, that should easily be with-in the grasp of any new competitor. An established and profitable company shouldn't have to chop wages to under-cut competitors just to gain market-share. May the best brand win!!!

[Sultan]

An interesting development to say the least. Well I appreciate that nothing is set in stone, the tone that is being set regarding wages and working conditions says one thing to me... that management at Westjet doesn't have any faith in the Westjet brand and that should worry all the employees there.

When Westjet started they paid much less than industry standard. I can completely understand why this was done and agree with the logic behind it. Westjet was a brand new company and having to compete against the likes of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada... two carriers with an established brand and a loyal following. Nobody knew who Westjet was or what they were about. To gain any sort of market-share, Westjet needed to offer their product for a price that was much cheaper than the competition and one of the easiest ways to do that was to use employee wages to establish a lower cost structure. As the company grew (although I would argue with the opinions of some on here and say that although Westjet has had a strong management team, they also benefited from a lot of dumb luck that just happened to put them in the right place at the right time) the wages and working conditions at Westjet improved to where they are today. Westjetters should be proud of their current working conditions and I think they set a good standard for the industry.

However... when it comes to this new regional company, Westjet is no longer the little start-up nobody has heard of. Westjetters love to thump their chest and talk about their 'guest experience', how owners care and all the other reasons that they feel make Westjet the better travel choice. If Westjetters actually believe that this is true, they should feel completely comfortable starting a regional airline with working conditions and wages that are equivalent to, or better than those at Jazz. Saying that wages need to be lower than the established airlines means that management has no faith on their ability to attract passengers through their brand and must rely on their ability to under-cut on price to gain market share. Apparently, this cost advantage won't come from all the innovative initiatives that Westjet likes to brag about. Instead, it will come on the backs of the employees making less than the competition.

The employees at the Air Canada regionals have worked long and hard over the years to make sure that Jazz is one of the highest paid regional operators in North America with some of the best working conditions and every pilot in Canada who has ever touched a turbo-prop has benefitted from this fact. Starting a company that pays 20% less than Jazz and justifying it by saying that one day Westjet Regional will set the bar for working conditions at a regional airline is laughable. Thanks to the work of the pilots who have come before, we're already there. Destroying the wages and working conditions at Westjet's competitors just so the industry can work its way back to the same spot 10 years from now is not beneficial to this industry.

It's time for the "owners" to put their money where their mouth is. If you really feel that Westjet is the be all, end all when it comes to air travel in this country, pay your new regional pilots better than the competition and set them loose. If people really buy into the Westjet image that you're selling, they will choose to travel with Westjet Regional over the competition as long as the price is comparable. And I can guarantee that even with comparable wages, that should easily be with-in the grasp of any new competitor. An established and profitable company shouldn't have to chop wages to under-cut competitors just to gain market-share. May the best brand win!!!

Couldn't be said better.

[TheSuit]

If Westjetters actually believe that this is true, they should feel completely comfortable starting a regional airline with working conditions and wages that are equivalent to, or better than those at Jazz. Saying that wages need to be lower than the established airlines means that management has no faith on their ability to attract passengers through their brand and must rely on their ability to under-cut on price to gain market share. Apparently, this cost advantage won't come from all the innovative initiatives that Westjet likes to brag about. Instead, it will come on the backs of the employees making less than the competition.

This is correct. The WestJet brand and experience doesn't command a premium price in the market (it was never intended to), so the cost must be lower. If you want Jazz WAWCON, apply to Jazz.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Mindless drivel.

[Red1]

Everybody's all hung up on 80%.. what if they had simply said we will pay the same as sky regional.or porter etc, I mean what is 80% who the hell knows. It won't be as much as Jazz, because jazz wages include 757 and RJ's. (It's pretty easy to blend wages up) plus Jazz has been around forever, its a career. This doesn't exist yet.. it will have guaranteed flow to WestJet.. no other regional has this. There may come a day when this regional becomes a career, but you got to get it going first.

There is tremendous potential here for Wetjet to do the same thing they did in 96, stimulate the market, means more people flying, leads to increased flying on the 737's leads to more growth. But like I said before it needs to get going first.

Ps. something to think about.. when has the management of any Canadian Aviation company ever asked its pilot group on something so pivotal to the future of the company...

[CanadaEH]

An interesting development to say the least. Well I appreciate that nothing is set in stone, the tone that is being set regarding wages and working conditions says one thing to me... that management at Westjet doesn't have any faith in the Westjet brand and that should worry all the employees there.

When Westjet started they paid much less than industry standard. I can completely understand why this was done and agree with the logic behind it. Westjet was a brand new company and having to compete against the likes of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada... two carriers with an established brand and a loyal following. Nobody knew who Westjet was or what they were about. To gain any sort of market-share, Westjet needed to offer their product for a price that was much cheaper than the competition and one of the easiest ways to do that was to use employee wages to establish a lower cost structure. As the company grew (although I would argue with the opinions of some on here and say that although Westjet has had a strong management team, they also benefited from a lot of dumb luck that just happened to put them in the right place at the right time) the wages and working conditions at Westjet improved to where they are today. Westjetters should be proud of their current working conditions and I think they set a good standard for the industry.

However... when it comes to this new regional company, Westjet is no longer the little start-up nobody has heard of. Westjetters love to thump their chest and talk about their 'guest experience', how owners care and all the other reasons that they feel make Westjet the better travel choice. If Westjetters actually believe that this is true, they should feel completely comfortable starting a regional airline with working conditions and wages that are equivalent to, or better than those at Jazz. Saying that wages need to be lower than the established airlines means that management has no faith on their ability to attract passengers through their brand and must rely on their ability to under-cut on price to gain market share. Apparently, this cost advantage won't come from all the innovative initiatives that Westjet likes to brag about. Instead, it will come on the backs of the employees making less than the competition.

The employees at the Air Canada regionals have worked long and hard over the years to make sure that Jazz is one of the highest paid regional operators in North America with some of the best working conditions and every pilot in Canada who has ever touched a turbo-prop has benefitted from this fact. Starting a company that pays 20% less than Jazz and justifying it by saying that one day Westjet Regional will set the bar for working conditions at a regional airline is laughable. Thanks to the work of the pilots who have come before, we're already there. Destroying the wages and working conditions at Westjet's competitors just so the industry can work its way back to the same spot 10 years from now is not beneficial to this industry.

It's time for the "owners" to put their money where their mouth is. If you really feel that Westjet is the be all, end all when it comes to air travel in this country, pay your new regional pilots better than the competition and set them loose. If people really buy into the Westjet image that you're selling, they will choose to travel with Westjet Regional over the competition as long as the price is comparable. And I can guarantee that even with comparable wages, that should easily be with-in the grasp of any new competitor. An established and profitable company shouldn't have to chop wages to under-cut competitors just to gain market-share. May the best brand win!!!

You lost me after your first paragraph. "..that management at Westjet doesn't have any faith in the Westjet brand and that should worry all the employees there." It's a good thing you're not a CEO of an airline because yours wouldn't last a week.

[CanadaEH]

Everybody's all hung up on 80%.. what if they had simply said we will pay the same as sky regional.or porter etc, I mean what is 80% who the hell knows. It won't be as much as Jazz, because jazz wages include 757 and RJ's. (It's pretty easy to blend wages up) plus Jazz has been around forever, its a career. This doesn't exist yet.. it will have guaranteed flow to WestJet.. no other regional has this. There may come a day when this regional becomes a career, but you got to get it going first.

There is tremendous potential here for Wetjet to do the same thing they did in 96, stimulate the market, means more people flying, leads to increased flying on the 737's leads to more growth. But like I said before it needs to get going first.

Ps. something to think about.. when has the management of any Canadian Aviation company ever asked its pilot group on something so pivotal to the future of the company...

What about the potential beyond 2018? Regional -> Mainline -> WestJet Widebody??

[Red1]

from what I understand the agreement has some language that all wide-flying will be done by westjet.

[Red1]

Saying that wages need to be lower than the established airlines means that management has no faith on their ability to attract passengers through their brand and must rely on their ability to under-cut on price to gain market share

um isn't it always about under-cutting the competition.. isn't that how the free market works. Brand loyalty was created by the marketing department in the hopes the consumer would pay more for a familiar brand.. I guess it worked for Heinz..

[gonnabeapilot]

You lost me after your first paragraph. "..that management at Westjet doesn't have any faith in the Westjet brand and that should worry all the employees there." It's a good thing you're not a CEO of an airline because yours wouldn't last a week.

Nope, you're right. Not a CEO. But here's what I do know about business.... you have 2 choices: Once your company has gained entry into the market you can start to build a brand around your product that brings with it consumer loyalty. As your market share increases, your brand loyalty should become stronger. This brand loyalty means that you no longer have to be the cheapest thing on the market to keep your customer base. As long as you can control your costs to keep your price point reasonable, customers will follow your brand and your product. Take a look at Fortune 500 companies that deal with consumer products... they all have strong brands with a loyal following. Your second choice is to build your market share by always being the cheapest guy in the market. This can also work quite well but it means that your customers are only ever choosing you on price and price alone. They don't care about your brand because you don't really have one. The thing with being the cheapest guy on the market is after a few years of operation, your costs increase and there will always ALWAYS be someone new who can do it a bit cheaper than you. Guess where your customers will go?? To the guy that does it cheaper.

Westjet has spent a lot of time and money trying to convince it's employees and the general public that it has a good brand and a strong brand. "Canada's low-cost, high value, <insert whimsical thing>, airline. Another poster commented that the Westjet brand was never meant to command a premium in the market. It doesn't have to command a premium in the market (people don't have to be willing to pay more just so they can travel Westjet) but it should command a presense in the market (Airfare being equal, people should want to choose Westjet over the competition because it's Westjet). As I said in my previous post, Westjet has been around long enough to have brand presense. It should be capable of paying it's employees a wage equivalent to Jazz and still operate at a slightly lower cost structure which will allow them to compete quite easily in this new venture. Why do I use the wages at Jazz? Because that is where the bar is set. Porter pays less because they are where Westjet was in '96... trying to build a brand and enter a market and to do that you need to be the lowest cost guy.... same with Sky Regional. Westjet is no longer in the same league and shouldn't act like it when it comes to their (future) employees.

So why should employees be worried?? Well as I said, if you and your management feel that the only way you can steal market share from AC is to be the guy with the lowest cost and the lowest price, so be it. Will you be successful at it? Definitely! Will the shareholders and the managers benefit? Definitely! But you are living in a dreamworld if you think that Westjet will always be the lowest cost operator out there. At some point, someone will see an opportunity and they will out Westjet Westjet. Think back to those couple of (rare) quarters where Westjet actually was reporting losses. What was going on then?? Well there was this annoying guy out in Quebec who had started an airline called Jetsgo and was doing things much cheaper than Westjet (a little too much cheaper as it turned out). But the day will come when we see another Jetsgo in Canada and it may just be run by someone with a bit better business smarts. If your customers are only choosing you for your price, they will flock to the new cheapest airline on the block. And when that happens, your managers and your shareholders will come to you and say "we need you to do things cheaper because otherwise we won't survive" and all the touchy feely stuff about being an "owner" won't matter anymore. You will feel then how I'm sure the folks at Jazz are feeling right now... that the wages and working conditions you've fought so hard for (and that benefit every single Canadian pilot out there) are going to be under attack all because some guys down the road are willing to do it for cheaper.

So as I said before... put your money where your mouth is. Look out for your fellow professionals and the future pilots of Westjet Regional. Tell your management that the only way you'll agree to this new regional is if the pay and wage is equal to, or better than the existing competition (you know.... like how you would negotiate your own contract). Then go out and compete, but do it by offering reasonable fares backed by the Westjet brand that you all feel so strongly about. If the brand is as strong as you all believe it is, you should still be successful and Westjet Regional will see growth. But if you set out from day one to just be the cheapest, you are only helping to set yourselves up for failure. Because when the next Jetsgo comes around (and it will come around), there will be a reckoning. If it happens before you've managed to work your new regional's wages back up to the present standard then working conditions in the entire industry take a hit and we all loose.

Am I a CEO of an airline? No. I'm just a pilot. But unlike some on here, I realize that in the terms of this industry, that's all I'm ever going to be. We're not "owners", we're not on the board of directors, we're not fund managers and we're not financial visionaries... there are people who do those jobs and when the going gets tough, they won't be looking out for us. At the end of the day we're all just pilots.... and it's about high time we started looking after ourselves... Westjetters, here's your chance....

[Legacy]

Correct me if I am wrong but a day 1 capt at Porter makes 75k? Jazz capt makes 74k? Why is everyone saying Jazz is setting the bar?

[KAG]

Because there is no such thing as a day 1 CPT - they have years of service towards upgrade. So if you a FO for 10, when you get upgraded you get 10 year pay

[rudder]

Correct me if I am wrong but a day 1 capt at Porter makes 75k? Jazz capt makes 74k? Why is everyone saying Jazz is setting the bar?

There is no such thing as a day 1 capt at Jazz just as there is no such thing as a day 1 capt at AC on the 777. At both companies, the FO carries years of service into the pay scale when upgraded. Therefore, every AC 777 capt starts at year 12 777 pay. As a result, a more logical comparison between carriers operating Q400's might be at a median year like 5 or 6 and for both capt and FO. There will always be demographic discrepancies between a startup carrier and a legacy carrier, even at the regional level. Then of course there is the pension and benefits. The WJ pay system has developed such that they trade high productivity for high pay rates on the 737. There is no traditional pension expense, but there are line item expenses and actuarial liabilities associated with the ESOP matching program and Option/RSU Program. Other carriers offer more traditional pension programs.

p.s startup carriers get a honeymoon on pay as every employee is a new-hire starting at day 1 pay. This obviously changes over time. What WJ is proposing by paying 80% of median (The Median is the "middle number" in a sorted list of numbers) is to effectively tax the tenured staff and offset the negative cost impact of longevity. The sales pitch is that the missing 20% will come from full ESOP participation (10% contributory if you can afford it) and profit sharing from the mother ship. Brilliant business plan - poor employee plan. By making the calculation 'median', Jazz is already effectively excluded from the calculation. I would take a close look at Porter and Skyregional pay and the subtract 20%. Wonder what the offer is for the rest of the WJ Express staff? Can a WJ Express FA afford to work for just 80% of what a Porter FA makes? What about the AME's? What about the counter staff at the new stations? Lots of questions...

[Legacy]

I fully understand there is not LIKELY to be a day 1 captain at Jazz BUT it is published. Thats like saying there is no day 1 captain at AC on the EMB! But we know thats not true. If jazz and porter offered at position as capt, what would be your starting pay? Point is, from a salary only POV, Porter pays more.

[rudder]

For most mature carriers, Capt pay scale is used to develop the comparable FO pay rate (i.e. 65-70%). That is typically why there are published scale 1/2/3 etc Capt pay rates that do not apply to even a single member in the demographic. The only exception is a startup carrier and the anomaly that temporarily resulted in direct entry Capt at AC on the EMJ. That will likely not repeat itself.

What is Porter's year 10 Capt pay rate? What is Porter's pension worth? Apples to apples.

When you get that info, please send it here so that people do not have to continuously come to forums like this and ask the same question over and over -

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... adian.html

[haironfire]

I am a current Q400 check pilot at a Canadian Airline and I believe WJ Regional could probably benefit from my experience (especially during the start-up phase). I have to admit that I was definitely interested in the prospects of WJ Regional, until I read the conditions of employment. I think pilots in Canada should finally stand up for themselves and boycott WJ Regional until the conditions improve. Try to start a Regional Airline if no pilots apply. This race to the bottom should stop, and until we all band together it will just continue to deteriorate.

Just my two cents