Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[dream_big]

uggg, another guy that cant do math.

No i can do math fine thank you. I did misread the hourly rate. It is $38 rather then $32. My apologizes for that. However, it still does not solve the fact that encore is paying about 10% less for starting wage compared to other carriers. NOW if my math is wrong please tell me because I REALLY want to hear your rational. And please don't start into the whole profit share business!!!!

[pilotidentity]

All you WJ guys at the mainline are saying that its all going to be fine as far as the wages are concerned yet you aren't saying anything about the 20 days worked to earn the wage. That is a huge negative is it not?

I'm on the outside so of course I don't get it.

I've heard about the Kool-aid, never cared to understand it, but reading this thread is almost spooky.

Why are you WJ guys defending this so strongly? I'm sure there is not one of you that is going to take a position at Encore and yet you are talking it up when the the rest of us "outsiders" think it is going to be nothing but bad news for YOU and US.

We are telling you not to drink it, yet you are offering it to us and telling us its going to be just fine.

[7thirtyseven]

All you WJ guys at the mainline are saying that its all going to be fine as far as the wages are concerned yet you aren't saying anything about the 20 days worked to earn the wage. That is a huge negative is it not?

I'm on the outside so of course I don't get it.

I've heard about the Kool-aid, never cared to understand it, but reading this thread is almost spooky.

Why are you WJ guys defending this so strongly? I'm sure there is not one of you that is going to take a position at Encore and yet you are talking it up when the the rest of us "outsiders" think it is going to be nothing but bad news for YOU and US.

We are telling you not to drink it, yet you are offering it to us and telling us its going to be just fine.

Nope, Im telling you now, if you are an "outsider" yer screwed. If I was in your shoes Id be shitting myself. Encore pilots will be "just fine".

[Donald]

Why are you WJ guys defending this so strongly?

Ever heard of a Ponzi scheme?

[dream_big]

Why are you WJ guys defending this so strongly?

exactly! Because there is not a single WJ pilot that will ever tell you that what westjet is doing is wrong. Why? Because it does not effect THEM!!!

I need to ask this. Would any current WJ pilot who are for encore still feel this way if come the new mainline contract you were forced to lower starting wage by 10%, lower overall wages by 5-10%, have working days increased, and having your pension slashed (I understand you dont have one, just an example)??? Would you still feel great about Encore if this was going to happen to you because of it?

Well for the people at the regionals this is a very real possibility!! So how can you sit here and tell us this is a great deal??

[ikarus]

So how can you sit here and tell us this is a great deal??

How? Well, it's easy when you have been making profit after profit for the last 15 years or so. You forget that maybe, just maybe things may slow down (or even head the other way) one day. And we are all humans...nothing wrong with thinking positive, but at some point you gotta ask yourself if this is the right thinking.

Second, many WJ senior guys, frankly don't care about Encore's impact on their future regional fellows, or anyone else in this industry. They have made good change, and pension is not even on their "worry" list, so it's pressing to spot any concern on their face.

For the rest of WJ guys, what other option do they have, once the train has left the station? Of course you are going to think positively about this new venture.

But look around the industry guys. Everyone is trying to squeeze each penny from their dollar invested. Competition is fierce, very competitive and something will ultimately have to give. On top of it all, our economy is sputtering with no hopes for the short term future.

Good luck to WJ mainline guys if they don't think productivity changes are going to by pass them.

Hope I'm wrong...

[onetreehill]

You are.

[flyer 1492]

What I cannot understand is why Encore is interviewing prospective pilots when they don't have the flow thru (up and down) nailed down. A friend of mine just turned down an interview at Encore because the person on the other end of phone could not answer some of his questions. IMHO the only pilots that will win are the DE captains, the F/O's hired later will be worse off than anyone in Canada. If you work 20 days max, you will have a hard time doing any overtime.

[dream_big]

How? Well, it's easy when you have been making profit after profit for the last 15 years or so. You forget that maybe, just maybe things may slow down (or even head the other way) one day. And we are all humans...nothing wrong with thinking positive, but at some point you gotta ask yourself if this is the right thinking.

As a mainline pilot the idea jumping to THE TOP SENIORITY captain of a q400, with the remarkable opportunity to build a great extension to westjet and help make canada's preferred airline even better, and pull in bigger profits than ever imagined, should be the best possible scenario for one westjetter. AND yet no mainline pilot will make the transition. Why?

Point proven. Defend it anyway you'd like!

[True North]

How? Well, it's easy when you have been making profit after profit for the last 15 years or so. You forget that maybe, just maybe things may slow down (or even head the other way) one day. And we are all humans...nothing wrong with thinking positive, but at some point you gotta ask yourself if this is the right thinking.

As a mainline pilot the idea jumping to THE TOP SENIORITY captain of a q400, with the remarkable opportunity to build a great extension to westjet and help make canada's preferred airline even better, and pull in bigger profits than ever imagined, should be the best possible scenario for one westjetter. AND yet no mainline pilot will make the transition. Why?

Point proven. Defend it anyway you'd like!

What a joke. How many pilots do you know that currently fly a jet transport for a major airline are looking to get on a Q400?

It's real simple for you, don't apply.

[onetreehill]

No shit. What a dumbass.

[FICU]

What a joke. How many pilots do you know that currently fly a jet transport for a major airline are looking to get on a Q400?

I know many who if they knew they'd be stuck in the right seat of a jet for 10 years would want to be a Captain again and a Q400 would be a pretty good machine if the pay and conditions were good.

Not everyone wants to be a career F/O even if it's in a jet.

[True North]

Not everyone wants to be a career F/O even if it's in a jet.

WestJet doesn't have career FOs.

[RB211]

Not everyone wants to be a career F/O even if it's in a jet.

WestJet doesn't have career FOs.

If hired at WJ today, when could one expect an upgrade?

I would expect it is in the 10+ years range, no?

[FICU]

WestJet doesn't have career FOs.

Nothing is certain in aviation... ever.

[jjj]

WestJet doesn't have career FOs.

WestJet does have FOs that are banished to the right seat and they seem to be making a career out of it.

[True North]

WestJet doesn't have career FOs.

WestJet does have FOs that are banished to the right seat and they seem to be making a career out of it.

Interesting, although irrelevant. I'm assuming someone "banished" to the right seat at WestJet would still be banished to the right seat at Encore so it's not really in the context of a "career" FO that was being discussed.

dream_big and FICU seem to think there should be a line up of guys from WestJet looking to jump to Encore, but then they are also probably part of the delusional crowd that thinks Encore wages should be the same as WestJet. Equally ludicrous ideas.

[jjj]

Yes my comment was irrelevant. Perfectly in line with most of this thread.

I wonder why a senior 777 Captain at AC wouldn't want to help get things all fired up over at Rouge at the posted rates or even better - why not play out the last few years at Sky Regional?

Later.

JJJ

[flyer 1492]

WestJet doesn't have career FOs.

WestJet does have FOs that are banished to the right seat and they seem to be making a career out of it.

Are they banished to the right seat because of their ability, or because they were not "TEAM" players?

[KAG]

Dream Big and others

First off let me clear the air.
When we voted YES to encore it was sold to us as a concept; not the whole package as you see it. Because it is a separate company (I’m not sure how but anyway) we had little say as to the WAWCON at Encore.
So for the comments of us not caring, eating our young and such, let me respond this way; if we didn’t care it wouldn't come up on our forum, at our town hall meetings, to emails to our WJPA. Because we don't care right? Let me assure you (all) it is and has, and we made minor headway in pay (90% up from 80%) and the list issue (should) be fixed soon…

FO pay at encore, since GS mentioned 1500-2000 hours applicants frankly that’s not bad for a low timer – Not that were going to be hiring low timers right away anyway, it’s going to be higher time drivers for fast/direct upgrades.
The money will also be higher then you calculate – every year I’ve been here it’s been that way.

20 days worked – yeah, that sucks. But I think its need only in the beginning until such time we have more tails, and a proper route structure. This isn’t going to be efficient overnight.

As for upgrade times at WJ - god only knows. It depends on how many more machines we get, IF we go larger (which GS himself has mentioned down the road) and the retirements going forward (I’ve heard 40 a year). Come here with realistic expectations.

That said, Life as a senior FO is awesome. If I T4 under 125K, I’ll be surprised. I don’t really do OT, and I give stuff away – Flica is the envy of the industry and from what I hear Encore will have it too.

These WAWCON are a starting point, that will improve with time.
Honestly it’s done. Apply or don’t it’s your call. Bitching about it won’t change anything. Working from the inside will.