Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[KAG]

We get paid credit time, of which 68 hours hard time (flight time). We have no min daily credit. The rest is odds and ends. So no, the more segments you do, the more odds N ends you accumulate the less efficient in terms of actual flying time.

[Kosiw]

KAG, all the info you supply is very much appreciated, since only piecemeal info is dribbling out day after day.

This isn't a slag, but I cannot figure out, how the #2 airline in Canada ( with about a year since the approval vote was taken ), not have a complete wawcon package put together, as its been mentioned on this site, parts might be done "on the fly", wages structure might change (first 80 now maybe 90% industry standard). Unless those of you in the know are with holding the complete package, it seems a bit "bush", that many important issues are not yet nailed down. I guess many of those 400 or so applicants might just be "kicking the tires" to find out more ?

[KAG]

I'd guess it's more a case of last minute tweaks, IE the 2-list solution.
I'm not in the know; I can read the same as you but have the advantage of applying some internal experience in things like pay and scheduling.
What people (myself included) get caught up in is the hourly rate and days off. Really with ESP, profit share and the ability to trade your schedule around it’s really hard to quantify that unless you've lived it.

CountryHick
Min credit? Not sure but I doubt it. It adds a layer of inefficiency that we don’t need (same applies to WJ).

PAIA, your probably correct in your definition but there are still long taxi's, deice, irops, and that all gets factored into the credit built into the pairing. We do have natural block growth same as anyone else.
As for your last comment, your just being an ass.

[Paia]

Sorry KAG. I am just disappointed that there is a separate list, separate pay scale and separate ideas of working conditions. How great would this have been for everyone if this meant a bunch of hiring at WJ, bidding a lifestyle (ie FO to captain on Q4), same working conditions, same pay scale. I know it wouldn't make sense to use current pay scale so it would mean pay cuts depending on how many planes brought in etc. but think of all the benefits. Then if/when wide bodies are added to the fleet, your pay adjusts accordingly again. Those who prefer long haul bid long haul and those who enjoy regional bid that. WJ would still be profitable and it would only make the pilot group stronger. Separating Q400 guys from 737 guys with such a wide margin just doesn't make sense as both jobs are challenging and deserve to be properly compensated.

[pilotidentity]

KAG,

Thanks for your honest reply. It makes sense that WJ pilots don't back this 100 percent.

[Donald]

I still think it's a joke that you guys keep on saying that Encore new hires have to "work hard to build the brand" and that Encore is a "start-up" like WJ was 16 yrs ago.

The Westjet brand is already well established.

Customers....sorry, "guests" will be purchasing tickets on Wesjet, not Encore, therefore there is no Encore brand. Just like there is no Jazz brand, people just buy tickets on AC and assume the dash 8 is a small AC plane.

Bottom line is WJ employees care about one thing only, the bottom line and how it affects the stock price. Whatever the net result for anybody else, oh well.

Good luck on mainline contract negotiation.

[Mig29]

I still think it's a joke that you guys keep on saying that Encore new hires have to "work hard to build the brand" and that Encore is a "start-up" like WJ was 16 yrs ago.

I know man, as if this Regional flying operation is a piece of cake, and as if it only took few months for a fresh CPL to get 500hrs and then he's going right seat Q400! Or as if that DEC coming in only took a year or two doing some "easy" Navajo bush work and now he just has to "work hard" for few more years to make an impression on WJ hiring board that he's worthy of the job with the big boys???? Right, I would like to look at the demographics of the guys interviewing at Encore.

I remember when places like GGN/CMA wouldn't take guys below 2,500hrs, even more for DEC....What is Encore getting applicants now for? These are not 22 year old guys I bet, but mature individuals who have done their share of "paying dues" and living in parent's basements anymore...why pay dues again at a Regional 705 airline?? By paying them like this, some will probably reconsider that basement option again

WJ needs a regional aircraft - that is a given. It's the only way for them to be efficient. But they should've made it as part of their company, tweak the pay scales (status pay) and let anyone inside bid for it ahead of guys off the street. Then the rest go behind them in seniority terms and life would be good.....

[cjet]

Hi Guys,

Just to clairify what Kag is saying. WJ pilots are scheduled to fly 80hrs a month, 960 hrs a year but when you factor in vacation we average around 70 hrs ass in seat per month.

CJET

[winston]

$84,000 minus what you have to put aside for your "pension". Benefits?? not sure how they work at WJ mainline or will at Encore. And isn't the ESP at Encore going to be less than Mainline?

You say direct entry to Mainline is GOLD - agreed as WJ 737 interviews are a tough egg to crack. But when Q400's start replacing '37 routes and the average age of a 737 skipper being what, 40? I just don't see a steady stream of flow through to mainline.

To each his own definitely but I just get a little tired of ice being sold to Eskimos.

One man's opinion, and only based the ever so accurate Av Canada source, but that's the way I'm seeing it. I have no doubt they'll be 400 plus resumes and Encore will be successful, but at what cost to those that occupy the pointy end and all those that follow at Encore, or elsewhere.

If I was at WJ already I'd be laughing as Encore is just going to making me more money. If I was just hired at Encore, not so much.

W

[Inverted2]

So, year 1 for Captain 68/hr rising to 72 year 4, year 1 FO 38, rising to 40.33 year 4.
Then a Westjetter told me the other day the flow through will only bring years of service for upgrade at mainline, but you start a year 1 pay scale going from Encore to WJ, nice work guys, your doing a bang up job for this industry. I guess the silver lining is, it won't be much of a pay cut going from encore captain wages to WJ FO wages, at least that's something(sarcasm)

I don't think they'll be paying that low. I'll wait till I see an official payscale before I judge, but they won't be getting guys with much experience at those wages.

[anonymity]

So, year 1 for Captain 68/hr rising to 72 year 4, year 1 FO 38, rising to 40.33 year 4.
Then a Westjetter told me the other day the flow through will only bring years of service for upgrade at mainline, but you start a year 1 pay scale going from Encore to WJ, nice work guys, your doing a bang up job for this industry. I guess the silver lining is, it won't be much of a pay cut going from encore captain wages to WJ FO wages, at least that's something(sarcasm)

I don't think they'll be paying that low. I'll wait till I see an official payscale before I judge, but they won't be getting guys with much experience at those wages.

Inverted, those are from the info package they send to interviewees, so I'm going to say that is so far the official pay scale, I can't see why they would misinform potential candidates.
Also of note, I know of one high time pilot who cancelled their interview after finding out the details, too bad there'll be 20 that will for every 1 that won't.

[Kosiw]

Is this scenario reasonable..... for anyone going left seat at Encore is probably taking a lateral or a pay cut from their previous job. At some point in the future (after a whopping $1.00/hr/yr raise), you get the opportunity to jump to the mainline, only to take yet another pay cut to yr 1 F/O wages (if only YOS is carried through for upgrade purposes).

What again is the advantage to all this

Was it set up this way to discourage movement

[ikarus]

What again is the advantage to all this

Was it set up this way to discourage movement

Well, the advantage is you get the prove yourself worthy of flying the 737 when they flow through you one day

[flyer 1492]

Nah, It's to see how much koolaid you can drink.

[Mach1]

For those who are so full of criticism, could any of you answer me this;

What is so different about the way this pay-scale and flow-through is set up compared to how it is at Air Canada? If you work at a regional and move to Air Canada, do you not take a pay cut? Do you not come into the seniority list behind the guys who were hired off the street in front of you?

In all seriousness, is this really any different?

[Paia]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

[7thirtyseven]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

Short and sweet would be ac relationship with anyone else is a shitshow.
What makea me laugh Is all the guys who cant remove themselves from the shitshow wagging their "smarter than thou" fingers at guys who have and are working to build something different. Kinda pathetic actually.

[Paia]

Not wagging anything, just saying that a few hundred extra pilot positions at WJ would have been pretty awesome.

[7thirtyseven]

Not wagging anything, just saying that a few hundred extra pilot positions at WJ would have been pretty awesome.

Agreed. Fingers crossed.

[flyer 1492]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

Short and sweet would be ac relationship with anyone else is a shitshow.
What makea me laugh Is all the guys who cant remove themselves from the shitshow wagging their "smarter than thou" fingers at guys who have and are working to build something different. Kinda pathetic actually.

Believe it or not what WJ is doing is no different than what has happened before. No different than AC and CDN setting up their own regional carriers. The race continues...