WJE Flow through

[Bede]

Flow through solution has been announced.
- aim is to get 100% flow through
- if WJE operations do not permit losing that number of pilots minimum is 25% flow through
- the remaining WJE pilots who did not flow through get a "place holder rank" which is essentially a number on the WJ pilot list. Outside pilots go below this placeholder rank. Once the WJE pilot flows through they move into their "active number" which is where their "place holder rank was.
- min time at WJE is 1 year and you need to meet the usual proficiency, behaviour, etc
- All pilots (outside or from WJE) start at step 1 on the pay scale
- you can bypass your transfer to WJ for a maximum of 2 years at which point you forfeit your right to come to WJ
- 6 month probation for WJE transfers as opposed to 12 months for new hires
- If WJE pilot fails to qualify for WJ pilot position, they can go back to WJE at Encore's discretion
- YOS at WJE count for retirement and vacation purposes
-in the event of a merger all numbers of non-WJ pilots become null and void and WJPA meets with company to determine next steps

For all intents and purposes, this is a 1 list agreement. From my view point, this looks like an excellent arrangement for both pilots and company. It prevents any whipsawing since all WJE pilots would prefer aircraft at the mainline (so they can flow through) and it helps the company recruit WJE pilots. Unfortunately, it looks like the hiring to WJ will be pretty much over since the aim is for complete flow through except when it isn't feasible.

[flying4dollars]

Thanks for posting Bede. This should clear up a lot of confusion and misinformation. Sounds like a fair deal to me and is good to see this has been ratified.

[FICU]

The next question to be determined will be if flow through is based primarily on mainline growth or pilot attrition.

[WJ200]

Thanks Bede for the summary!

Looks great!

[rudder]

WJ had no choice. The projected pool of qualified applicants for WJE was not going to be able to permit that division of WJ to expand on schedule. So now effectively WJ will shut down street hiring and instead focus on the new 2-step process to get to WJ (WJE then WJ). This will eliminate the confusion at WJ pilot interviews about whether the applicant is willing to work at WJE first (which will now be almost imperative) and answers the questions of WJE applicants about how their WJE job will eventually translate in to a WJ job.

For the next several years WJE will be adding aircraft at a rate of about 3:1 compared to WJ so this is a no brainer. All in all this arrangement is better than anything else that has been tried but it would have been simpler with one company and one list which would have permitted current WJ FO's to bid WJE left seat although pay would have an issue. With flowthrough it will be unlikely that there will be a WJE Capt at anything higher than 3 year scale for many years to come.

[7thirtyseven]

Bede. WjE pilots oonly get a placeholding if they are in that particular GS and are held back due operational reasons.
Not sure why DOH across the board wont work.

[WJ200]

WJE pilots get additional spots above the new hire off the street pilots on a one for one basis. For example, if WJ hired a course of 12 pilots but can only get 4 from Encore, 8 placeholders will be added onto the WJ pilot list from Encore. The program ensures that a high percentage of the hiring will come from Encore and gives everyone a realistic chance of getting to WJ. One list merely creates a large list with little opportunities to move up. It is a program which works not just tomorrow, but also 10-15 years from now. It also prevents traditional whipsawing....

[biatch]

Should have called this thread "Naïve"

[North Shore]

^ Explain, please?

The company is naive for doing it this way? The WJPA is naive for accepting this from the company? Any pilot who signs on under these circumstances, is naive to think that is how things will actually pan out?

[Bede]

All in all this arrangement is better than anything else that has been tried but it would have been simpler with one company and one list which would have permitted current WJ FO's to bid WJE left seat although pay would have an issue. With flowthrough it will be unlikely that there will be a WJE Capt at anything higher than 3 year scale for many years to come.

Agreed, but you have to work with the hand that your dealt. Rumour has it that if we would have voted "no" on the regional MOU, we would have gone with a CPA which we'd have no control over and would have been even worse.

Bede. WjE pilots oonly get a placeholding if they are in that particular GS and are held back due operational reasons.
Not sure why DOH across the board wont work.

True, but the only other reason I can think of is performance issues. This agreement is essentially DOH, but mitigates the risks associated with a merger or unionization. I thought the same thing at first, but after giving it some thought I have to give the WJPA a lot of credit in coming up with this.

Should have called this thread "Naïve"

Can you elaborate?

[Black Cat]

I hate to be that guy but this just reeks of desperation from your management. Come play in our sandbox but first you have to scoop out the cat turds.

WJ wants to pay king air wages for q 400 drivers, but they can't be find qualified applicants so now they must resort to carrot dangling?

Then another probation period and back to year one pay scale once you get on at WJ mainline. What gives?

I hope you fellas at WJ can make some improvements for the b scalers as well in the new contract that's coming. Please vote with your conscience, and not just with the profit sharing cheque in mind.

Sorry, great airline otherwise guys!

[encore]

It is not what was promised to the first bunch of guys but nothing they can do now. 6 more months of probation sucks, I feel a big thumb coming down on my head.

DOH and forward backward movement dosent work with separate companies, and it was offered to WJ pilots that had Q time, not one came so I don't think anyone would come for $57120/ year and 20 days a month (published salary). WJE needs the pilots so they are pushing the 100 percent pretty hard, pilots with Dash 8 time have all dried up, there are a few guys with decent experience coming but fewer and fewer per class. Restricted flow is probably good, every pilot I have talked to here, is going to WJ the first chance they get. There would be too much green on green if they went 100%

Expect 3 years if you get hired now, unless guys leave here for AC, same wages but you work half as many days for the same credit.

[WJ200]

It is not what was promised to the first bunch of guys but nothing they can do now. 6 more months of probation sucks, I feel a big thumb coming down on my head.

DOH and forward backward movement dosent work with separate companies, and it was offered to WJ pilots that had Q time, not one came so I don't think anyone would come for $57120/ year and 20 days a month (published salary). WJE needs the pilots so they are pushing the 100 percent pretty hard, pilots with Dash 8 time have all dried up, there are a few guys with decent experience coming but fewer and fewer per class. Restricted flow is probably good, every pilot I have talked to here, is going to WJ the first chance they get. There would be too much green on green if they went 100%

Expect 3 years if you get hired now, unless guys leave here for AC, same wages but you work half as many days for the same credit.

Just curious...if you are an Encore pilot....what is different than what was promised on the interview? The story you are giving is much different than the one I'm hearing from the vast majority of Encore pilots I'm talking to.

[rudder]

Sounds like even the WJ pilots aren't 100% certain of what has been implemented.

Bottom line is that WJE are clearly well aware that they cannot staff the planned growth with existing applications. That has an obviously negative impact on WJ and its network. So a decision has been made to try to stimulate better qualified applicants using the WJ followthrough incentive when in all likelihood what was really necessary was to revisit the WJE pay issue. Hint to WJE management: pilots pay bills with $$$ not promises.

My prediction? It still will not attract qualified applicants in numbers sufficient to staff WJE and eventually the pay issue will have to be addressed. Being the bottom feeder on pay levels does not make for being #1 on anybody's list of prospective employers.

[anonymity]

Just curious...if you are an Encore pilot....what is different than what was promised on the interview? The story you are giving is much different than the one I'm hearing from the vast majority of Encore pilots I'm talking to.

WJ200, I can guarantee one thing for sure, unless you are asking close personal friends what they think about Encore conditions, you're getting the rah rah sis boom bah I drank the cool-aid answer. The same question from a trusted friend garners you the truth and the above post from encore, is a toned down version of what I've been told. Some unhappy campers over there, regret is a word that gets used a fair bit. Although now that the first "50ish" get actual date of hire, that may ease the pain somewhat, but see if that holds true when they are still flying for Encore 4-5 years from now.

[yycflyguy]

What happens in times of mainline contraction? Will there be a flowback of mainline pilots into Encore positions meaning bottom guy at Encore faces furlough?

[dignifly]

This is quite a predicament for people with over 5000 hours and left seat time on the q4 who had aspirations of joining westjet. Seems like that would put you in the conversation for mainline but now you'd have to go right seat for half your current pay (if not more) and get in the queue. If there were still direct entry encore you can maybe justify it... One thing is for sure, they'll definitely be getting people committed to wj. half the pay to fly right seat on a plane you're sitting left seat on now? Tough choice. But I guess if you went to air Canada it's a similar paycut... Sadly, I don't know many jobs in this industry where you don't take a paycut in order to advance.

[scraps]

Just curious...if you are an Encore pilot....what is different than what was promised on the interview? The story you are giving is much different than the one I'm hearing from the vast majority of Encore pilots I'm talking to.

WJ200, I can guarantee one thing for sure, unless you are asking close personal friends what they think about Encore conditions, you're getting the rah rah sis boom bah I drank the cool-aid answer. The same question from a trusted friend garners you the truth and the above post from encore, is a toned down version of what I've been told. Some unhappy campers over there, regret is a word that gets used a fair bit. Although now that the first "50ish" get actual date of hire, that may ease the pain somewhat, but see if that holds true when they are still flying for Encore 4-5 years from now.

From the point of view of another Encore pilot, there are a couple of unhappy people here but it's a small (but vocal, as usual) minority. The most unhappy being obviously the person posting with the username "encore" here.. Other than him I haven't really heard anyone say they regret coming here, quite the opposite.

We all knew what we were getting into, and they haven't promised anything they haven't delivered so far. Also the pay has been above the minimum up to now and days worked below the maximum. I'm home most nights and when I'm working the pairings are decent and the people are great to work with, all in all a good place to work - a big reason for that is the people you work with are actually happy being here. For commuters it is of course more difficult.

[JLA]

What's the average experience and background for a right seat being observed during the last groundschools for WJE?

[DaveP]

Hi Guys,
There isn't much new in this document other than a more defined language around flow here. We have gone back and forth the past few months with different scenarios. This language worked in what is believed to be the best solution for now. There was a lot of modeling done too with growth and retirement scenarios. I also agree that the window for direct WJ hires will now narrow. Our goal is 100% from Encore.

As for attracting talent, I'll comment that yes, it was tough at first getting 50 705 Captains. Within Canada, if you look around and aside from Jazz, there really aren't that many companies that have a lot of Dash/ATR/Saab etc. We did however, end up eventually getting there.

Recruiting is a breeze now in that we can start taking the likes of king air/metro/1900 guys with a nice chunk of mpic. total times are currently around 3000 to 4000 hrs. We can even likely dip a little more to something like 2500 as guys can spend a little more and more time in the right seat. Upgrades are going to be around 8 to 12 months from now and flow will hopefully start in about a 9 to 12 months if all is going well. We are even starting to get ahead of the curve with interviews now as we are starting to build a pool!

Interestingly enough, when I was working in the resumes today, there was a noticeable increase in the daily uptake of CV's. Notably, some higher time Jazz and Westwind etc. I'm not crowing, but clearly a few guys were looking for more definition.

I'm not sure where "Encore" the poster, is getting this 3 year thing, but feel free to pop over to my office anytime to see the projected flow. Upgrades are "as above" and flow is "as stated" I have nothing to hide.

Forecasted hiring for encore is about 90 to 100 next year and WestJet is looking around 40 to 60 with prelim numbers. Those are yet to be finalized. It will be a busy year for the hiring team. Retirement numbers are also on the build. Today we have 32 pilots over the age of 60 and it's growing.

Is encore running smooth? I would say not, but they are all working hard. Things like getting the ACARS going smoothly, getting the tablets online and bulking out with bags are all being worked on. Encore has a great bunch of Flight ops managers there too. Lots of growing pains, but they will get there.

As an aviation disclaimer, this is ALL subject to change! I've seen too many about faces with the economy and of course new competition etc... It's aviation after all.

Take care,
Dave