WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport.

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Realitychex
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Realitychex »

photofly wrote:
Porter could launch service from YYZ tomorrow if they wanted to
Er, right, but they don't want to. They're very happy serving the airport they built up. What's your point?

Are you saying that the TPA should withdraw some of Porter's slots in favour of Westjet? That would make no sense at all.

don't you think it's strange for Westjet to issue a statement to the press without talking to the airport operator? Its just a tactic to put the wind up city council. Nothing more.
The US DoJ did precisely that at DCA.

AA and US Airways had 65% of the DCA market and that was deemed anti competitive, even with competition available at both IAD and BWI about 40 minutes away, according to Mapquest.

They have been forced to divest numerous slots to competitors to ensure their dominance is kept in check. The US DoJ, at this juncture, will apparently limit bidders to LCC's, recognizing quite correctly that without LCC competition in a market, fares remain artificially high.

One has only to compare fares between Toronto and NYC, where LCC competition is alive and well with WJ in the market, compared to fares between Toronto and Boston, Washington and Chicago to see that the US DoJ has apparently made the correct decision in this matter.

Porter has 85% of the slots at YTZ and according to Mapquest, it's a 37 minute drive between the two airports.

In the US, airports 40 minutes apart are considered distinct markets. In Canada, airports located in, far and away, the nations largest metropolitan area, 37 minutes apart are considered common markets.

Porter's cosy defacto monopoly would not be permitted in the United States. It would be deemed anti-competitive. End of story.

Granted, it's a different jurisdiction with different rules, but there are few north of the border who would suggest that our system has resulted in more competition and therefore lower fares.

At a time when Canadians are tripping over themselves to drive across the border to access low fares that are purportedly the result of a far more competitive playing field, it defies any logic or common sense for any publicly owned airport, let alone an airport located in the downtown core of Canada's largest city, and within spitting distance of the nations largest surface transportation hub, to be dominated to the degree that Porter dominates Billy Bishop airport. The arrangement serves no one but shareholders of a privately held corporation, who, last time they made their numbers known, and even after repeatedly making public claims to the contrary, proved their consistent inability to operate a profitable business, even with an 85% share of the market.

The last verifiable data in 1Q 2010 indicated that Porter's average fare, excluding taxes, was $175.64 over an average flight length of 350 miles. During the same quarter, WestJet's average fare ex taxes was $155.43 over 963 miles. Porter lost $5.9m that quarter. WJ made $13.8m that quarter. See Porter's SEDAR filings and WJ's 1Q 2010 report. It's all there in black and white.

Porter have had seven sheltered years to establish themselves at YTZ. That's plenty long enough. It's time the training wheels were removed and the mollycoddling ended. Canadians demand competitive air service and the resultant low fares. Porter's own fare data clearly proves they haven't delivered. Their monopoly has resulted in a consumer rip off of scandalous proportions. The average WJ flight is 3 times as long as an average Porter flight and WJ's average fare is still LESS than Porters.

If no one else wants to operate at YTZ, that's fine. As it stands, no one seems particularly interested in YXX or YHM, but that could change tomorrow and there's nothing WJ could, or would do about it.

However, if there are airlines that want to provide a competitive service at YTZ and drive fares lower for consumers, then they should be allowed a reasonable allotment slots to be able to do so, together with access to gate facilities at rates consistent with those at other other airports of similar size.

And for the record, WestJet publicly mused on more than one occasion about obtaining slots at LGA and SNA and more recently, they suggested they'd be interested in slots at DCA.

As much as Porter would like to believe its all a big conspiracy to muddy the waters, everything WestJet has done regarding this file is entirely consistent with its MO over the past 17+ years.

WestJet now has a fleet type that can operate into YTZ and has made it clear that fleet type will make an appearance in Central Canada in 2014. Furthermore, there is discussion of the runway being lengthened and jets being permitted there. That will give WJ, and others, the ability to operate jets out of the airport.

WJ is not afraid of competition, having gone head to head with dozens of far larger competitors over their history.

Porter, on the other hand, who are entering their 7th year, still remain deathly afraid of ever having to face any real head to head competitor. They will stop at nothing to ensure their anti-competitive defacto monopoly and high fares remain in place in perpetuity. With this in place, Porter's shareholders hope profits will result, and with profits, an exit strategy, selling their holdings at a substantial profit.

Follow the money. That's what this is all about. The rest is window dressing.

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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by bmc »

Realitychex wrote:
The last verifiable data in 1Q 2010 indicated that Porter's average fare, excluding taxes, was $175.64 over an average flight length of 350 miles. During the same quarter, WestJet's average fare ex taxes was $155.43 over 963 miles.
There's a bit of apples to oranges in this. Porter, operating smaller capacity over shorter stage lengths, probably has higher seat costs. The bigger the equipment, flying longer distances, has a better opportunity to spread fixed costs. A new A380 should have lower seat costs than a new Q400. It may even be half as much. Arguably, it should be a fraction of the Q400.

Sorry for the diversion.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by leftoftrack »

DCA is a perimeter airport nothing further than 1500 miles. Or about the same as the Range of a fully loaded Q400 in a porter configuration
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by photofly »

AC went to court over the slot allocation procedure and got a drubbing, so the conspiracy between Porter and the TPA extends to the courts too.

I don't imagine that Porter actively seeks competition - no company does - but allegations of corporate cowardice because they aren't queuing up to hand over slots to WJ are just silly talk.

If WJ really wants slots at YTZ why not approach the TPA? And if that doesn't work, then whatever competition authorities exist in Canada. That would be evidence of some serious intent. Have they done so?

As for follow the money, I am: all of which has been invested by Porter, and none by WJ. Mere statements to the media are of course free.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by photofly »

Do you think the chances of City Council approving runway extensions at CYTZ are improved or worsened by comments like those of WJ? Worsened, I would say, as I think would most people watching the controversy. Including WJ's CEO.

In which case for an operator without slots there who genuinely wants to operate jets the only sensible thing is to keep very very quiet. Not shoot its mouth off about 737s that don't exist yet.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by vrefplus5 »

Realitychex aka "The Bean" and for that matter, you too MD2, keep your excellent spin and repartee to AEF. A much more seasoned and battle-scarred audience there awaits. Thanks
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Realitychex »

photofly wrote:Do you think the chances of City Council approving runway extensions at CYTZ are improved or worsened by comments like those of WJ? Worsened, I would say, as I think would most people watching the controversy. Including WJ's CEO.

In which case for an operator without slots there who genuinely wants to operate jets the only sensible thing is to keep very very quiet. Not shoot its mouth off about 737s that don't exist yet.
A significant proportion of WJ's 737-800's are fitted with the Short Field Performance kit, which was developed specifically for GOL for use at SDU's 4,337 foot runway, just 349 feet longer than YTZ.

Porter's proposal would lengthen the runway to at least 5,000', almost 700 feet longer than SDU.

Here's Gol landing at SDU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrTvgQbCpWE

Clearly, the aircraft currently exists. Should the runway be extended in accordance with Porter's desires, WJ already has a jet that can comfortably operate to pretty much anywhere within 500 miles of the GTA.

When the MAX deliveries start shortly after the completion of the proposed extension, performance will be just that much better.

http://www.b737.org.uk/flightcontrols.h ... nt_Program

SDU is restricted to 23 operations per hour and to narrow-body, military and general aviation aircraft only due to short runway lengths and a difficult approach. The airport serves domestic destinations only, with Avianca Brazil, TAM Airlines, Gol and Azul all having significant networks at Santos Dumont.

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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by photofly »

Per the hand of WJ's CEO, writing to city council, it's not the runway length that's the issue, it's the noise. No jet WJ flies meets the noise threshold, and their future 737s that might are still fantasy aircraft.

Smoke and mirrors.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by leftoftrack »

Does westjet get a sub fleet of c-series aircraft to operate out of the island airport if the restriction is lifted on solely the cs100, which would then affect the relationship with Boeing. And would they have encoure operate these aircraft for them. At 66000/yr and a reduced esp?
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Realitychex »

leftoftrack wrote:Does westjet get a sub fleet of c-series aircraft to operate out of the island airport if the restriction is lifted on solely the cs100, which would then affect the relationship with Boeing. And would they have encoure operate these aircraft for them. At 66000/yr and a reduced esp?
I don't think our largest trading partners would be particularly impressed if rules were set in ANY industry that "accidentally on purpose" resulted in only a Canadian assembled product meeting the carefully crafted, exclusionary rules.

The potential for a disastrous (for Canada), tit for tat trade war where Canadian made products were discriminated against in favor of homegrown products would be too great to risk such a gambit.

Canada might win the battle, but we'd lose the trade war. As a trading nation located along the border with an 800lb gorilla, such a move would be pretty dumb.

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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

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I don't think our largest trading partners would be particularly impressed if rules were set in ANY industry that "accidentally on purpose" resulted in only a Canadian assembled product meeting the carefully crafted, exclusionary rules.
Except that the tripartite agreement has since 2003 singled out the "Dehaviland Dash-8" (paragraph 1(d)(2)) as a permitted aircraft at CYTZ, and that's a Canadian product. I see no evidence of ground forces massing on the southern shore of Lake Ontario in advance of an invasion.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Old fella »

"........I see no evidence of ground forces massing on the southern shore of Lake Ontario in advance of an invasion."




Lessons from Vietnam, Afghanstan and later Iraq come to mind,so CYTZ pull up the draw bridge, ye ole moat is yer protector…
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

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By the way if we want to argue about trade wars, could we please join together in a campaign against Canada's 245.5% import tariff against cheese? Unbelievable.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by leftoftrack »

The U.S.A. Is broke and there going to go to war (trade) over a municipal government decision to restrict access to a small airport that was abandoned commercially in 2004? I doubt it
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Fanblade »

photofly wrote:
I don't think our largest trading partners would be particularly impressed if rules were set in ANY industry that "accidentally on purpose" resulted in only a Canadian assembled product meeting the carefully crafted, exclusionary rules.
Except that the tripartite agreement has since 2003 singled out the "Dehaviland Dash-8" (paragraph 1(d)(2)) as a permitted aircraft at CYTZ, and that's a Canadian product. I see no evidence of ground forces massing on the southern shore of Lake Ontario in advance of an invasion.
Hmmm :?:

What manufacturer competes with the -8 program south of the boarder? I think Boeing would be very sensitive to a politically contribed situation that contributed to the launch of direct competition.

But to be absolutely sure I think we should check the South Shore of Lake Ontario for Brazilian militia. Not sure how they got over the Mexican boarder though. While we are at it we should blockade the shipping lane between St Pierre and Miquelon.

Cut the BS. Everyone in, or no one in. Protecting a monopoly is NOT in the best interest of the public. My 12 year old knows this. I'm not even sure why people bother to engage the spin going on with the YTZ issue.

Everyone or no one. If they don't want the noise? Its no one. Simple.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by photofly »

Fanblade wrote:I'm not even sure why people bother to engage the spin going on with the YTZ issue.
Because we're guardedly grateful to Deluce from preventing Miller from turning the airport into a park for the benefit of people with waterfront condos, and we know full well Air Canada and WJ would be happy with that outcome too. Deluce is the only one with a financial interest in keeping CYTZ open. Which as a pilot flying out of there suits me best, and f**k the public interest, monopolies and lack of competition.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by bmc »

As good as Porter is, as I've been told, I think it would die a slow painful if the island was closed and it was forced to move ops to Pearson. The island is Porter's key to success. It's also AC and WJ's thorn.

We'll now watch Deloce try to keep everybody out, while the others do everything possible to get it shut down. Or open to everyone else.

A lot at stake for all three airlines.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

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Cut the BS. Everyone in, or no one in. Protecting a monopoly is NOT in the best interest of the public.
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Old fella »

I don’t know that much about YTZ operations other than the fact I have flown in there a few times with Porter and AC. Very convenient to say the least if Toronto is your final destination. It would seem to me Deluce ‘s business plan is a success and well utilized consequently closure of YTZ in its entirety would seem farfetched. Deluce , no doubt has influence with the powers to be and business community in and around Toronto. How far his influence reaches at YTZ expansion for C Series ops and a possible WJ interest with their latest B737 version remains to be seen.
I would say YTZ will be operating at its current status/structure for a very long time
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Re: WestJet seeks to fly Boeing 737 jets from island airport

Post by Realitychex »

Old fella wrote:I don’t know that much about YTZ operations other than the fact I have flown in there a few times with Porter and AC. Very convenient to say the least if Toronto is your final destination. It would seem to me Deluce ‘s business plan is a success and well utilized consequently closure of YTZ in its entirety would seem farfetched. Deluce , no doubt has influence with the powers to be and business community in and around Toronto. How far his influence reaches at YTZ expansion for C Series ops and a possible WJ interest with their latest B737 version remains to be seen.
I would say YTZ will be operating at its current status/structure for a very long time
You might reconsider that position if you took a hard look at their financial statements....

Sure its convenient. But so to is DCA, LGA, BUR and countless other urban airports on the planet for many. The difference is, no airline has anything close to the near monopoly afforded Porter at YTZ.

Note London City Center Airports FIDs screens:

http://www.londoncityairport.com/travel ... departures

I count at least 6 different airlines operating there to a variety of destinations.

Here's SDU's FIDs info.

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightSta ... ueryType=1

Lots of competition there to, eh?

Then there's Billy Bishop Airport, quite possibly the only passenger airport in the world that doesn't even bother to have a working Arrival and Departure web page of its own.

Why bother?

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