Why?

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rudder
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Re: Why?

Post by rudder »

bluecoolaid wrote:Finally have a day off to update you. Already some of the information in my earlier post is out of date.

Yes the matrix is correct.

Our compensation review came out over the weekend. What changed? The number of companies that WestJet used to compare our salaries to was increased. As a policy we will maintain industry -10% payscales. FO's got a cost of living increase of 1%. Captains got a 4% lift to bring them more inline with their industry peers (less 10%).

Pay scales now go out to 5 years which will be important for anyone coming on board now. With between 150-200 pilots on property by the end of the year, it will take anywhere from 3 to 10 years to flow up regardless of what seat you occupy. My guess is that they'll slowly increase the flow to 50% next year, maybe 75% the year after and then 100% in year three. If that's the case, someone in the summer ground schools would likely wait about four years to move up. This is just a guess based on rumours.

Also, the employee stock purchase plan will be maintained at half of the WestJet ESPP. It was felt that we are competitive without increasing this to the level of our peers.

In summary, the gist of the compensation review as I read it is steady-as-she-goes, with a small increase to attract Direct Entry Captains. Since there were not big policy changes, I'm guessing that Encore is still able to attract pilots with sufficient experience.

Management keeps referring to us as a new startup airline. It would be nice if they'd acknowledge that we're not new. We're really a mature successful airline adding a second aircraft type. If you frame the conversation in this way, you'd get a whole new perspective.
Pathetic.

Not you - Encore. Looks like there is no learning curve at YYC HQ. I continue to hope that pilots will show restraint and DO NOT APPLY TO ENCORE.

Eventually when WJ realizes that they will be parking Q400 deliveries, the pay will have to rise to industry standard.

p.s. it is clearly time for a real pilot union at WJ and Encore.
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RustyDeuce
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Re: Why?

Post by RustyDeuce »

"Real pilot union". You realize that sounds bloody ridiculous, don't you? There is no such thing. ACPA? You call that a "real union"? What has it done to stop the reshaping of the industry? Nothing. Encore will pay what it will pay based on supply and demand. When the applicants dry up the wages will go up. Smart people willing to take a short-term hit for long-term job security with a successful airline will see the benefits of applying to work at Encore. Those that don't.... well......... we'll visit in 10 years and see what your "real union" has done for you.
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hevyd
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Re: Why?

Post by hevyd »

Looking at this another way its not so bad.
Kind of like SW temp job posting. The way I see it WJ like SW will get some higher time experienced pilots applying (read KFC). These pilots will get in while trying to get on with AC or WJ.Up to 10 years is a long time to sit in a dash 8. If AC calls there is not much holding them back but a veiled promise of a B737 job somewhere in the future. I don't see much difference between mainlines anymore. Either is a good option. The rouge contract is very similar to WJ,SW and ex SS. Lots of extra pay avail for extra work.
Good luck boys competition is grand.
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rudder
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Re: Why?

Post by rudder »

RustyDeuce wrote:"Real pilot union". You realize that sounds bloody ridiculous, don't you? There is no such thing. ACPA? You call that a "real union"? What has it done to stop the reshaping of the industry? Nothing. Encore will pay what it will pay based on supply and demand. When the applicants dry up the wages will go up. Smart people willing to take a short-term hit for long-term job security with a successful airline will see the benefits of applying to work at Encore. Those that don't.... well......... we'll visit in 10 years and see what your "real union" has done for you.
You must have taken an extra dose of koolaid.

It is both shocking and disappointing that the WJ pilots are supportive of below standard wages at Encore just to prop up the WJ profit share checks and tbe WJA share price.

Bottom line is that it is a sellers market and Encore is trying to hire DEC not just entry level FO. What you are selling is a crack at WJ by serving penance time at Encore. You better lower the experience bar or find parking spaces for your Q400's.
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Why?

Post by BE20 Driver »

To correct Bluecoolaid, the FO's got 2.6% ($0.97/credit hour). Captains got 4.3% or $2.92/hour.

My guess is that there have been enough people applying with the DEC job posting that no one felt they needed to up the compensation any higher.

I doubt that we'll reach the point of parking planes. There are enough people wanting to get to mainline that they'll find a cheap way attract applicants.
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rudder
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Re: Why?

Post by rudder »

BE20 Driver wrote:To correct Bluecoolaid, the FO's got 2.6% ($0.97/credit hour). Captains got 4.3% or $2.92/hour.

My guess is that there have been enough people applying with the DEC job posting that no one felt they needed to up the compensation any higher.

I doubt that we'll reach the point of parking planes. There are enough people wanting to get to mainline that they'll find a cheap way attract applicants.
So if you subtract 2% for COLA, the raw pay increases are 0.6% and 2.3% respectively (and applied to substandard rates).

Like I said - pathetic.

Hope that the WJPA mainline boys and girls get themselves a great big raise as a reward for burying their Encore brothers and sisters.
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Duster
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Re: Why?

Post by Duster »

Rudder you should know that a great majority of us are disgusted and appalled at the Encore WAWCON. A majority voted for the Encore concept trusting that wage and working conditions would be reasonable. Unfortunately that was not the case. On the upside, there is a stron push to improve conditions as well as go to one pilot list. In addition, the internal union drive (WPPA) is gaining traction daily - hopefully certification will happen sooner rather than later.

Cheers
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rudder
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Re: Why?

Post by rudder »

Duster wrote:........ In addition, the internal union drive (WPPA) is gaining traction daily - hopefully certification will happen sooner rather than later.

Cheers
Agreed.
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flyer 1492
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Re: Why?

Post by flyer 1492 »

With a pay increase like that the f/o's would be able to upgrade the Kraft Mac and Cheese. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Flyer
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Why?

Post by BE20 Driver »

rudder wrote:So if you subtract 2% for COLA, the raw pay increases are 0.6% and 2.3% respectively (and applied to substandard rates).
I did a quick google search. COLA wasn't 2% last year. The national average CPI rate was 0.94% in 2013 according to http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2013.aspx I'm pretty sure that this will be the one that management uses to calculate our raises. If you live in an average part of the country, you were given a 1.66% and 3.36% increase in pay.

That said, Calgary is 3.5 times national average at 3.3% (these numbers run from April 2013-April 2014 vs the previous CPI which quoted Jan-Jan numbers) http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.c ... rs/current Obviously, with the actual inflation for the city in which we are all based in FO's were given a 0.7% decrease in take home pay year-over-year and Captains were given a 1% increase in take home pay.

Just for reference sake, I found a StatsCan CPI table for various cities in Canada last year. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 2a-eng.htm
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rudder
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Re: Why?

Post by rudder »

BE20 Driver wrote:
I did a quick google search. COLA wasn't 2% last year. The national average CPI rate was 0.94% in 2013 according to http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2013.aspx I'm pretty sure that this will be the one that management uses to calculate our raises. If you live in an average part of the country, you were given a 1.66% and 3.36% increase in pay.

That said, Calgary is 3.5 times national average at 3.3% (these numbers run from April 2013-April 2014 vs the previous CPI which quoted Jan-Jan numbers) http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.c ... rs/current Obviously, with the actual inflation for the city in which we are all based in FO's were given a 0.7% decrease in take home pay year-over-year and Captains were given a 1% increase in take home pay.

Just for reference sake, I found a StatsCan CPI table for various cities in Canada last year. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 2a-eng.htm
It still just all equals one thing ....... pathetic.
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True North
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Re: Why?

Post by True North »

Duster wrote:In addition, the internal union drive (WPPA) is gaining traction daily - hopefully certification will happen sooner rather than later.
Yeah, that'll help... :roll:
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Why?

Post by BE20 Driver »

Unless the company was preposing 0%, I can't say the WJPA has had any traction in improving things.
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Red1
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Re: Why?

Post by Red1 »

And the union will come in and wave a magical wand and things will immediately get better, wages will increase days off too. We will get free hot meals and tip allowances and new sweaters, and fancy uniforms, with decals, management will run for the hills because of the mighty union.... :rolleyes:

It's simple economics people, supply and demand. It the supply of pilots is too large wages go down, not enough and the demand is strong wages go up. Let the market dictate.
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Justin.Case
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Re: Why?

Post by Justin.Case »

Red1 wrote:It's simple economics people, supply and demand. It the supply of pilots is too large wages go down, not enough and the demand is strong wages go up. Let the market dictate.
Wages don't necessarily have to go up. If you lower the experience requirements you increase the pilot supply... so-long pay raise!
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CanadianEh
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Re: Why?

Post by CanadianEh »

Red1 wrote: It's simple economics people, supply and demand. It the supply of pilots is too large wages go down, not enough and the demand is strong wages go up. Let the market dictate.
Let the market dictate only when the scale tips in favour of those with the power! Otherwise they like to get creative and skew the demand or supply in whatever way will benefit them (read: allow TFWs into Canada, instead of increasing wages! How convenient!)
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pollyperkins
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Re: Why?

Post by pollyperkins »

Hey Rudder!!!

If you have so much issue with the pay in the industry... CHOOSE ANOTHER CAREER!!!!

The low pay in aviation is not news!!!! From the day I got started back in '87 I wasn't ignorant to what I was getting into. Many of my classmates are no longer in it for the same reason... but they did something about it rather than staying and complaining... ALL THE TIME!

It's like continually choosing to eat at McD's and B*%ching about the food!!!

:smt014
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mbav8r
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Re: Why?

Post by mbav8r »

Pollyperkins,
I think you have it backwards, you would do all of us a favor by leaving the industry, clearly striving for better is not your strong suit. It sounds like you're the kind of person who would just settle for half ass.
Ever put jalapenos on a quarter pounder, it's like gourmet dinning, oh sure I could just eat a regular quarter pounder and bitch about it but I like taking so so things a making them better, you?
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Coast-dog
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Re: Why?

Post by Coast-dog »

For some people, taking a job offer from Encore will mean a 'better today' - believe it or not - and for others it's for a better tomorrow when they flow through to mainline.

I've been knocking around the industry for fifteen years now, had some decent luck maintaining employment continuity, but the music has stopped for me and I'm finally contending with the situation that most pilots face at some point in their career.

In my time I've seen Harmony, JetsGo, Cargojet, Canjet, Sunwing, Flair, Flightcraft, Canada3000, Skyservice, WestJet, Canadian Airlines all appear on or disappear from the scene. Of the eleven that I've listed from my memory only 45% remain in operation to date in essentially the same configuration as the day they began operations, even less if you discount the ones that started off the back of Fllightcraft(CJ, SW & Flair).

Is Encore the perfect place to hang your hat? By the definition of some, it is not; those people I hope won't apply to work for Encore because all you'll do is screw things up for the people trying to make a go of it from the inside.

I heard someone say a long time ago that a company gets the union it deserves; I truly hope WJ & Encore continue to work as whole entity and not become divided by a labour organisation.

Before anyone goes off on a flaming spree about unions being the end-all-be-all and everyone needs to be in a union because it solves everyones problems, take a look around at our industry, the public sector, and the auto industry.

Anyone care to recall what has happened to organised labour over the recent past terms of the Conservative Federal Government?

I've worked for a company with unionised employees, and the only time things began improving is when management and employees began WORKING TOGETHER to find solutions to the issues at hand.

When the relationship became adversarial, conditions deteriorated.

Pretty simple.

Labour organisation is like going to war; it's a last resort when diplomacy has ultimately failed.

I understand that many people don't share my view, everyone has an opinion and they are welcome/entitled to express theirs just as I am mine.

I believe there is a time and a place for a Union, I'm not dead-set against unions, except that from my own experience if you can avoid finding yourself in a unionised workplace environment it's the preferred place to be.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: Why?

Post by JoeyBarton »

To DaveP or others in the know: for somebody joining Encore these days, how long should one be waiting before getting on with mainline?
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