New Destination(s)

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bmc
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by bmc »

dukepoint wrote:AC loads are hammered everywhere. Rouge loads were around 90% on the overseas routes all summer. There are dozens of underserved overseas markets that are open and up for grabs. AC intends to fly those routes. All WJ need to do is apply for those routes with the Canadian government, and wait for foreign approval. AC intends to grab all the money making routes, effectively shutting out WJ.

Bangkok, Australia(Melbourne), many destinations in China, India, North Africa, Coppenhagen....just to name a few, are all money makers that will likely be flown by a Canadian carrier in the next 5 years.

What I'm getting at, is that if WJ has the money, and capable pilots, why not expand overseas properly? It would help fill domestic flights. 20 330Neo's could easily be kept busy. AC's plan is to completely dominate the International market out of Canada. Calin is a smart cookie, and sees serious, serious cash, otherwise 90 widebodys would not be the plan at all. Don't underestimate him.


If WJ is so "cash fat", why are they letting AC get the jump on them? Why "dabble" with overseas using the wrong aircraft, when they could be a serious contender. I have no intention of offending anyone. I'm only asking a question.

DP.
First of all, it's not hard to fill an airplane. Price it and you can fill it.

How do you know those are all "money making" routes? All of those routes between Canada and those destinations are all being served today. Adding capacity will dilute yields. Throw in seasonality and you either have lighter loads or lower yields. Then throw in the cost of introducing a new fleet type, purchasing spares, training pilots, hiring pilots, training maintenance, etc, etc.

If there was a business case for it, Gregg would be pursuing it.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by aerobod »

dukepoint wrote:AC loads are hammered everywhere. Rouge loads were around 90% on the overseas routes all summer. There are dozens of underserved overseas markets that are open and up for grabs. AC intends to fly those routes. All WJ need to do is apply for those routes with the Canadian government, and wait for foreign approval. AC intends to grab all the money making routes, effectively shutting out WJ.

Bangkok, Australia(Melbourne), many destinations in China, India, North Africa, Coppenhagen....just to name a few, are all money makers that will likely be flown by a Canadian carrier in the next 5 years.

What I'm getting at, is that if WJ has the money, and capable pilots, why not expand overseas properly? It would help fill domestic flights. 20 330Neo's could easily be kept busy. AC's plan is to completely dominate the International market out of Canada. Calin is a smart cookie, and sees serious, serious cash, otherwise 90 widebodys would not be the plan at all. Don't underestimate him.


If WJ is so "cash fat", why are they letting AC get the jump on them? Why "dabble" with overseas using the wrong aircraft, when they could be a serious contender. I have no intention of offending anyone. I'm only asking a question.

DP.
From a business risk perspective, WestJet has always enployed a slow and steady relentless expansion. Widebody expansion is likely to continue in the same vain, as is happening with Encore at the moment. The 767s are available now, but require certification, bases, procedures and systems to be developed and/or refined. That's why they won't be put into service until the 2nd half of 2015. There is no point in throwing away cash by expanding too quickly.

As Realitychex says, this is just the beginning - 787s, 330neos or 350s are just not available in any realistic and cost effective manner for a minimum of several years, even if an order is placed today, unless there is a market downturn that leaves leasing companies that placed orders years ago with a surplus of airframes on their hands.
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True North
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by True North »

^ What he said.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by DaveP »

What they said ^ :)
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by dukepoint »

"Slow and steady", "let's start with three older machines"........... That's a 20 year old business plan. It worked well in 1996. This is not the same business environment. Is it the right strategy today? I ask this because WJ is a legitimate concern, with serious financial backing. Both Boeing and Airbus would fall over themselves to secure a sizeable Widebody order with you guys.

AC is cherry picking the profitable overseas routes. WJ is at serious risk of getting shut out of the overseas market, IMO. As far as I know, the Federal Government won't just let Westjet have slots in Heathrow, or compete in the Japanese market. It's far more complicated than that. The government won't grant a scheduled international route to a second Canadian carrier if they have reason to believe the market is already well served.....as far as I know.

Why do I care? I have a ton of WJ stock; so I'd call it a serious vested interest.

DP.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by parallel60 »

"Slow and Steady" allows them to pull out if necessary. If the Route isn't working they can retract it without any serious risk to the ship. Dublin, Glasgow......and so on. Route by route. Safe plan in my opinion...safer then the alternative of expansion too quickly. Because expansion TOO quickly has never happened.. :shock:
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by bmc »

dukepoint wrote:"Slow and steady", "let's start with three older machines"........... That's a 20 year old business plan. It worked well in 1996. This is not the same business environment. Is it the right strategy today? I ask this because WJ is a legitimate concern, with serious financial backing. Both Boeing and Airbus would fall over themselves to secure a sizeable Widebody order with you guys.

AC is cherry picking the profitable overseas routes. WJ is at serious risk of getting shut out of the overseas market, IMO. As far as I know, the Federal Government won't just let Westjet have slots in Heathrow, or compete in the Japanese market. It's far more complicated than that. The government won't grant a scheduled international route to a second Canadian carrier if they have reason to believe the market is already well served.....as far as I know.

Why do I care? I have a ton of WJ stock; so I'd call it a serious vested interest.

DP.
The Heathrow Slot Committee manages slots at Heathrow, not the Federal Government of Canada. The determination of who flies between Forign countries can be found Air Service Agreements between countires. These agreements specify how many carriers from each country, how much capacity or frequencies per week, or ultimately fully liberal agreements enabling open skies with no limitations or restrictions. The last time I was involved, the Canada UK bilateral specified two UK and two Canadian carriers. I can't recall if cities were specified or not.

The same process exists for other foreign countries and how they are to be served to and from Canada. The Canada Japan bilateral has provisions for two Canadian and two Japanese, then another Canadian carrier and Japanese carrier can be designated. I don't know what the agreements contains.

As for cherry picking profitable routes, a route is only profitable is a carrier can exceed it's costs. A market is not profitable in and of itself. The cost to participate with determine if it's profitable or not. On top of that, scheduled service is a commitment to operate on a year round basis. Low season operations can challenge year round profitability. The Japan to Canada market, at one time, had 24 seasons in one years, corresponding to demand from Japan. The shortest season was four days. It was all set around public holidays and when people travelled the most.

Airlines are lucky today because access to true traffic numbers and actual fare data is readily available, making it very easy to determine if a market is worth getting into. Throw in sophisticated modeling software, like SABRE's APM (Airline Profiability Model) and airlines can determine the most cost effective and profitable way to cycle airplanes and serve markets. These modelling tools take input data such as market pricing, market sizes, market shares, fleet types, competitor fleet types, etc and enable you to look at different scenarios. These have been around for twenty years.

The other piece that can displace good traffic is the prorated share of revenue from long haul traffic. International airline tickets, that domestic sectors, see the revenue prorated using weighted miles. In simple terms, if the long haul sector was 80 miles and the short haul 20 miles, the long haul sector would get 80% of the ticketed revenue. When you take a Hong Kong to Calgary journey sold at $800 return, that connects in Vancouver, you could see the YVR-YYC sector get $20-30. Given the strong local business market, do you want to displace high yield for low yield. Now, before anyone jumps on me, I am greatly over simplifying and not mentioning yield management, booking inventories, provisos, etc. But, the fact remains that long haul interline flow can cause a yield hit on a short haul sector.

I fully understand where you're coming from. I do. I also know that Gregg and his team have a lot of international experience prior to going to WJ. They are former Canadian alumni...of which I am too. As I said before, if there is a compelling business case to grow the fleet into new aircraft types, believing the effort would contribute to sustained profitability, we would be reading about such expansion.

I will close with the caveat that I have been away from the Canadian industry for many years and no longer live in Canada, but I am still in the industry and know how the game works. And, I don't work for Westjet. In fact, I've never flown on Westjet. I'm just a big fan of theirs because they're not trying to be the best of a mediocre bunch. They have an excellent senior team that I have known for many years and I have every confidence in them managing their growth.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by dukepoint »

Awesome detail! My apologies for oversimplifying the question. I didn't want to get to heavy into the bilateral issues, but your response was certainly more than I expected. Thanks!

DP.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by bmc »

dukepoint wrote:Awesome detail! My apologies for oversimplifying the question. I didn't want to get to heavy into the bilateral issues, but your response was certainly more than I expected. Thanks!

DP.
You know what? I have learned so much from people on Avcanada. Sometimes unknowingly, they have shared their knowledge and wisdom which I really appreciate. My career has been in the airline industry in the area of interline/alliances and industry affairs. Until four years ago, I oversaw prorate revenue settlement for the industry. I'm happy to perhaps over explain things. There aren't many places you can learn this stuff and I think the more we can share and learn, the better our understanding of how things work.

Brian
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by dukepoint »

Cheers Mate!

DP.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by jets »

BMC.

Can you explain why most low cost are not privy to LHR? Why will WJ go to LGW or STN? Huge disadvantage don't you think? That is if and when....
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by jets »

Bmc.

I know you have old mates at WJ but I don't think they are as nostalgic of Canadian as you are. Except for "better dead than red".... your good old days are gone. Yes those were the good ol' days for both Blue AND Red.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by True North »

jets wrote:BMC.

Can you explain why most low cost are not privy to LHR? Why will WJ go to LGW or STN? Huge disadvantage don't you think? That is if and when....
Who said WJ is going to LGW or STN? As for disadvantages, I suspect landing fees are substantially lower at both places vs LHR. Probably better slot times available as well. Not sure how those are disadvantages.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by True North »

jets wrote:Bmc.

I know you have old mates at WJ but I don't think they are as nostalgic of Canadian as you are. Except for "better dead than red".... your good old days are gone. Yes those were the good ol' days for both Blue AND Red.
Put the crack pipe away. You weren't making much sense before, now you're incomprehensible. :smt017
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by bmc »

jets wrote:Bmc.

I know you have old mates at WJ but I don't think they are as nostalgic of Canadian as you are. Except for "better dead than red".... your good old days are gone. Yes those were the good ol' days for both Blue AND Red.
Explain the nostalgia piece. Not sure where you picked that up.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by bmc »

jets wrote:BMC.

Can you explain why most low cost are not privy to LHR? Why will WJ go to LGW or STN? Huge disadvantage don't you think? That is if and when....
Which "most low cost" are you referring to?

One of the features of low cost airlines is the use of cheaper under utilized airports. Ryanair serves Isere-Grenoble airport out in the middle of nowhere, yet close to Lyon airport. Prior to Easyjet UK estabablishing a base at London Luton, there wasn't much activity at Luton.

Another feature of the low cost model is they don't interline. They focus on point to point traffic and not beyond markets. Interlining costs money and dilutes yield in many cases. If you fly on Ryanair or Easyjet and are taking connecting flights, you can't through check your luggage. You have to collect your bags and check in again.

Heathrow serves 82 airlines and 180 destinations in 85 countries. If you are interested in interline flow, it's an excellent airport. Certainly not a low cost environment. I don't have any cost figures, but I see no value in serving that airport for low cost.

The people choosing low cost airlines are price driven. Loyalty programs, schedules, airports are key drivers. I think the reason low cost carriers aren't at LHR is because no one is interested. I'm not sure if Easyjet still serves LGW, but when they did, airfares were higher than Luton. Of the five airports in LOndon, LHR and LGW are costly.

My past experience with getting slots at Heathrow is limited to one situation. After Canadian bought Wardair, we continued flying to Gatwick. We wanted to fly to LHR and assumed it was tied to the bilateral. Three of us went to meet with the LHR slot committee and asked how we make the airport switch. We had confirmed that the bilateral was not airport specific. The head of the slot committee simply asked us what times we wanted and they would do their best. Grandfather rights apply, so the longer serving carriers had first pick of timings. They made it clear that over time, we should be able to refine the timings. We applied. Got slots that worked for YVR flights and YYZ flights.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by Splash »

bmc wrote:
dukepoint wrote:Awesome detail! My apologies for oversimplifying the question. I didn't want to get to heavy into the bilateral issues, but your response was certainly more than I expected. Thanks!

DP.
You know what? I have learned so much from people on Avcanada. Sometimes unknowingly, they have shared their knowledge and wisdom which I really appreciate. My career has been in the airline industry in the area of interline/alliances and industry affairs. Until four years ago, I oversaw prorate revenue settlement for the industry. I'm happy to perhaps over explain things. There aren't many places you can learn this stuff and I think the more we can share and learn, the better our understanding of how things work.

Brian
That was a very humble post. You have my respect. Much of what you've posted is very interesting and the insight more so. Your background lends perspective to those that see the business from the cockpit.
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by imc »

I don't say much but this is a great thread minus a couple bird droppings...
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Re: New Destination(s)

Post by brooks »

Re: Yahoo Finance.
WestJet announces new service to Houston, Texas and Gander, Newfoundland

CALGARY, Jan. 19, 2015 /CNW/ - WestJet today announced two new destinations - Houston, Texas and Gander, Newfoundland - as part of the 2015 summer schedule release. The airline adds a total of nine new routes and increased frequency on 15 established routes.

"We know that 2015 will be driven by competition on every level, and we are ready," said Bob Cummings, WestJet Executive Vice-President, Sales, Marketing and Guest Experience. "Houston and Gander will connect more people, more often, to established and emerging energy markets, and we continue to improve service for our growing number of business travellers. WestJet resumes service to Dublin and launches service to Glasgow this spring as we further build our European presence, while WestJet Encore now reaches across Canada with the routes announced today. We are an airline experiencing a very exciting evolution that will bring the strength of our low-cost, people-driven guest experience into more markets."

Houston and Gander may seem like they sit on opposite ends of the spectrum, but the two destinations have more in common than expected. Houston is a big player in the global energy sector, making it a natural choice for new, non-stop jet service from Calgary. Gander is a small but mighty town, now the third WestJet destination in the province, set to benefit from the growth of Newfoundland's offshore oil boom and the established business-traveller market between Alberta and the "Rock". Service to Gander from Toronto and Halifax completes WestJet Encore's progression across Canada – now operating coast-to-coast while bringing lower fares and better connections from British Columbia to Newfoundland.

"As an airline, WestJet takes the route less travelled by preparing in good times for the potentially tough ones ahead," said WestJet Vice-President, Revenue Management, Paul Harvalias. "Last year we promised we would drop fares, and we followed through by lowering the price of more than six million seats across our network. The fares offered today also reflect on that promise; in addition to ultra-low introductory fares for routes like Houston and Gander, or for our European destinations, we have incredibly competitive pricing across the network throughout the year."

Guests in Atlantic Canada benefit from a market stimulated by lower fares, more flight options and greater connectivity as WestJet introduces more flights. WestJet launches its second year of competitive rates to Europe when flights resume between St. John's and Dublin on May 1, 2015, and new flights between Halifax and Glasgow begin May 29, 2015. Halifax sees its largest increase in service beginning July 15, 2015, with new routes to Gander and Deer Lake, Newfoundland, and Sydney, Nova Scotia, as well as increased frequency to St. John's, Ottawa and Toronto. New WestJet flights between Toronto and Gander begin May 3, 2015, a new WestJet Encore route between Ottawa and Moncton begins July 15, 2015, and service between Toronto and Fredericton, announced last July, begins April 15, 2015.

In addition to non-stop flights to Houston, growth in Western Canada includes new daily non-stop flights from Calgary to Yellowknife and Terrace, BC, launching May 3, 2015. WestJet Encore service between Edmonton and Kamloops, BC, announced early last year, is set to begin on February 15, 2015.
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