North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

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av8ts
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by av8ts » Sun May 27, 2018 5:29 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 2:53 pm
av8ts wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 1:20 pm
The US numbers look like crap to me. They would have to be a lot higher to get me to live in merica. Europe now, I would work for a lot less
Been to Europe lately? Parts of it will be under sharia law in a few years.
Yes I go to Europe quite often. And while I disagree with the snowflake SJW on the far left, that is some far-right propaganda right there
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Sun May 27, 2018 6:19 am

Recent update that Air North pilots have made some significant pay gains.

Was at $160/hr for a step 16 737 Captain.
Now at $205/hr for step 16 737 Captain.

Congratulations to my 4N colleagues for making such notable improvements.

I also look pleasure in crossing out S̶w̶o̶o̶p̶'s anemic $131/hr... congrats to my Westjet colleagues for shutting down bottom of the barrel rate. I look forward to seeing the gains you can attain.

Any other number updates please PM me, and I'll try to keep this list current, I never did get Enerjet or First Air rates.


$216 Air Canada
$210 Westjet

$205 Rouge
$199 Sunwing
$195 Transat

$181 Canadian North
$205 Air North
$̶1̶6̶0̶ ̶A̶i̶r̶ ̶N̶o̶r̶t̶h̶
$XXX First Air

̶$̶1̶3̶1̶ ̶S̶w̶o̶o̶p̶ see Westjet rates
$̶X̶X̶X̶ ̶E̶n̶e̶r̶j̶e̶t̶
$144 Flair

US Legacy
$332 Delta - $267 USD
$328 United - $264 USD
$327 American - $263 USD
$312 Alaska - $251 USD
$304 Hawaiian - $245 USD

US LCC/ULCC
$323 Spirit - $259 USD - unconfirmed
$321 Southwest - $258 USD
$312 Virgin - $251 USD
$276 Allegiant - $222 USD
$272 Jet Blue - $219 USD
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Last edited by altiplano on Mon May 28, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Diadem
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Diadem » Sun May 27, 2018 12:16 pm

Enerjet doesn't have any 737s anymore. All they have is a Twin Otter to keep their AOC active.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Victory » Mon May 28, 2018 6:40 am

Where did you see that Swoop rates are going to be the same as Westjet rates?
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Lemon » Mon May 28, 2018 7:29 am

Victory wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:40 am
Where did you see that Swoop rates are going to be the same as Westjet rates?
Isn’t it implied? Why would they do it for less? Mainline Westjet is already flying them at the same rates as rouge and rouge has proven to be quite profitable.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by DropTanks » Mon May 28, 2018 8:45 am

Lemon wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 7:29 am
Victory wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 6:40 am
Where did you see that Swoop rates are going to be the same as Westjet rates?
Isn’t it implied? Why would they do it for less? Mainline Westjet is already flying them at the same rates as rouge and rouge has proven to be quite profitable.
Pay rates have yet to be negotiated/agreed upon. If they can’t agree then it’ll be arbitrated.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Mon May 28, 2018 8:58 am

Don't get your panties in a knot.

It's apparent that $131/hr at Swoop doesn't exist anymore.

It's apparent that we're all still behind from where we should be.

I'll update it as more information becomes available.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by confusedalot » Mon May 28, 2018 8:10 pm

Wish I were born later. I would be worth two million at least by age 35. Probably more.

A mere 5 years ago, canjet captain could only hope to make 140K after ten years. 85K was the starting salary. Much worse for the jetsgo's and Canada 3000's of the world that preceeded them. Someone on this blog stated that a westjet left seater was paid 60K at that time. Look at them now.

The power of supply and demand..........that's all that is operating here.

Timing is everything.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Marinth » Tue May 29, 2018 12:28 pm

First Air has a combination of salary and an hourly "bonus". The top end pay is at year 9 in the captain seat at $10,915 base pay per month, plus $61.62 per hour. There is a pay guarantee of 740 hours per year that you're topped up to if you don't meet it by the end of the year. Calculated out that means a base year pay of $176,578, if you divide that by the 740 hours you make $238 per hour. Of course each hour after that 740 hours you are only making $61 per hour. Weird pay scale. On top of that, since everything isn't about money, you get 11 GDO's per month, and you don't bid your schedule. You are allowed to ask for 5 days you would like to have some of your GDO's fall on, and crew scheduling will "try to accommodate".
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:10 am

Bump.

Still behind in Canada...
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by hsilgnepilot » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:22 am

this is when I wish I had dual....
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by dumbbell daddy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:53 am

The disturbing part is that some of you are defending these low wages in Canada.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by pilotbzh » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:38 pm

My T4 says 223k for 2018 , 6 month E190 6 Month 737max 12year scale mainline.net was 131k (perdiem included)
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:46 pm

Now compare that to the US operators....
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by flyzam » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:13 am

'97 Tercel wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:46 pm
Now compare that to the US operators....
According to a number of users here we are not allowed to compare against the states.

We can only compare against Air Canada which is allowed to set their own prices for pilots irregardless of market forces because they will never be short of pilots applying.

Anyone see the problem here?
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:27 am

flyzam wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:13 am
'97 Tercel wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:46 pm
Now compare that to the US operators....
According to a number of users here we are not allowed to compare against the states.

We can only compare against Air Canada which is allowed to set their own prices for pilots irregardless of market forces because they will never be short of pilots applying.

Anyone see the problem here?
That's the argument I keep seeing.

Yet AC pilots are already (arguably to some) the highest hourly paid pilots in Canada... even though their rates haven't really gone up in 15 years... let alone inflation... they have perhaps the best pension, and benefits in many respects... they have a contract that is superior to CARs with regards to duty times, rest periods, augmentation, pairing rules, hotels, etc...

Sure some pilots have a higher T4 here or there or may work fewer days, or upgrade faster, or make a bunch of per diems on deployment 6 mos/yr, or whatever, but in general and as a whole the AC Pilots' contract is superior to the rest... even though it has stalled or gone backwards even for the past 15+ years.

Why? Because the other national comparators with sub-standard contracts are what the company has successfully argued to arbitrators, mediators, and even some union negotiators and pilots that we should be compared to.

Sure WS has narrowed the gap somewhat... and Sunwing has to hire and train Canadians now... but along comes the Swoops and continuations to that downward pressure...

AC doesn't set the rate unilaterally. The pilots know we're behind, but how can we make gains when we're constantly being compared to all the other operators in this country with sub-standard deals and arbitrators will buy it?

Don't get me wrong ACPA isn't completely without guilt, they've made mistakes... but you need to start making improvements wherever you are now and help push... AC pilots can't drag up the wages/benefits of every operation in this country without you doing some lifting.

US Pilots have succeeded in pattern bargaining these past years.

UAL gets a raise, AA pilots say hey, those guys are making more and get it topped, then Delta pilots get raises outside of even contract negotiations because management can't let them get behind or their going to get pissed and set the parking brake... Then UAL needs a raise to match that, meanwhile SWA - the most successful LCC ever - want to make sure their guys are taken care of and they get the same... and they all keep lifting everybody up... the Alaska's and Spirit's are right in there too... what are they going to do if they aren't? Set the parking brake!

That's not happening in Canada. AC successfully arbitrated B-scale into the mix with matching WS and TS rates and killed the pension to match them... now we're wasting out bargaining capital trying to fix that...

Meanwhile Swoop is paying what? $100/hr for a 737 Captain? What's Flair paying? Do you really wonder what's been holding down wages in Canada? It isn't the AC pilots who are well aware of where they should be, but have been struggling with the slow progression of other groups who seem to be happy with how much they work, or what seat they are sitting in, not how much they make while they are at work...

So I implore you guys... get on the program of pattern bargaining. Start setting the brake... AC Pilots can't do it alone. You wonder why people keep applying at AC? A couple SW CA's just joined, one was 11+ years... WS pilots every class I see one was 8+ year... TS pilots too... Lots of experienced military guys... Why do they come to AC? Because despite its shortcomings, and isolated issues, the contract is still as a whole better than all the rest...

Take a look in the mirror when you wonder why wages are depressed in this country!

That said... I didn't start this thread to make a blame game... We all need to get it in our heads together that we are in this together and we need to lift the while profession in this country to where it should be!
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Handover » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:27 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:27 am
You wonder why people keep applying at AC? A couple SW CA's just joined, one was 11+ years... Why do they come to AC? Because despite its shortcomings, and isolated issues, the contract is still as a whole better than all the rest...
I know one of those captains that just went from sunwing to AC. He didn't go because the contract is better. He went because of the stability of Air Canada over the rest. Many sunwing pilots wouldn't touch AC because of the lifestyle and wages they currently get at SWG.

The problem being is that come the next recession AC is one of the only companies when the music stops there will still be a chair to sit on.

It's never as simple as one person explains it.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:09 pm

Handover wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:27 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:27 am
You wonder why people keep applying at AC? A couple SW CA's just joined, one was 11+ years... Why do they come to AC? Because despite its shortcomings, and isolated issues, the contract is still as a whole better than all the rest...
I know one of those captains that just went from sunwing to AC. He didn't go because the contract is better. He went because of the stability of Air Canada over the rest. Many sunwing pilots wouldn't touch AC because of the lifestyle and wages they currently get at SWG.

The problem being is that come the next recession AC is one of the only companies when the music stops there will still be a chair to sit on.

It's never as simple as one person explains it.
You're right, it's never that simple... contract/package/whatever... they come because it's appealing for a number of factors. I can imagine 200/hr and a cherry schedule is hard to give up, but if you're back to a couple hundred an hour in a few years, and a pension, and a thousand guys below you, to work a few more days... and you have options... and that's the trade off.

The point is that it's a higher pay rate, however you want to cut it, and overall a better contract than at most any other operator. So when people say that it's AC depressing wages across other operators in this country they are off the mark... People are happily leaving all the other operators to AC and those operators aren't lifting their wages... $100/hr 737 CAs etc... because they are obviously filling the job, meanwhile AC pilots can't make gains because their employer just cries foul in negotiations or to an arbitrator and points to the half pay andb other lower pay operators it has to compete with.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:17 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:09 pm
Handover wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:27 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:27 am
You wonder why people keep applying at AC? A couple SW CA's just joined, one was 11+ years... Why do they come to AC? Because despite its shortcomings, and isolated issues, the contract is still as a whole better than all the rest...
I know one of those captains that just went from sunwing to AC. He didn't go because the contract is better. He went because of the stability of Air Canada over the rest. Many sunwing pilots wouldn't touch AC because of the lifestyle and wages they currently get at SWG.

The problem being is that come the next recession AC is one of the only companies when the music stops there will still be a chair to sit on.

It's never as simple as one person explains it.
You're right, it's never that simple... contract/package/whatever... they come because it's appealing for a number of factors. I can imagine 200/hr and a cherry schedule is hard to give up, but if you're back to a couple hundred an hour in a few years, and a pension, and a thousand guys below you, to work a few more days... and you have options... and that's the trade off.

The point is that it's a higher pay rate, however you want to cut it, and overall a better contract than at most any other operator. So when people say that it's AC depressing wages across other operators in this country they are off the mark... People are happily leaving all the other operators to AC and those operators aren't lifting their wages... $100/hr 737 CAs etc... because they are obviously filling the job, meanwhile AC pilots can't make gains because their employer just cries foul in negotiations or to an arbitrator and points to the half pay andb other lower pay operators it has to compete with.
I think you're missing the point. Of course AC has some of the best benefits and wages. This allows all other operators to have less "because we ain't AC".

Doesn't mean that AC Wacon are actually any good comparibly for a mainline flag carrier. Just better than the others than can get away with not paying as much
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by altiplano » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:28 pm

eyebrow737 wrote:Of course AC has some of the best benefits and wages. This allows all other operators to have less "because we ain't AC".
... and that makes it AC"s fault that nobody else seems to be able to catch up? That doesn't make any sense.

As I said, take a look in the mirror if you think you're wages are lagging the standard we should all be aspiring to.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by RVR6000 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:53 pm

AC throws WestJet and Transat’s contract at us when negotiating. We don’t negotiate against Delta and the likes. When WestJet will operate 787 on similar routes for 20-30% lower rates, and ‘swooping’ in with $113/hr for a 737, how the heck can we negotiate up.

Calin is a shark, a bankruptcy lawyer to be exact. In the last roadshow he said ‘if you don’t like it here you can go apply to Emirates.’ They have close to 1000 applicants on file who meet or exceed hiring minimums, what incentives does AC have to improve the pilot contract.
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Last edited by RVR6000 on Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by eyebrow737 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:59 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:28 pm
eyebrow737 wrote:Of course AC has some of the best benefits and wages. This allows all other operators to have less "because we ain't AC".
... and that makes it AC"s fault that nobody else seems to be able to catch up? That doesn't make any sense.

As I said, take a look in the mirror if you think you're wages are lagging the standard we should all be aspiring to.
I've worked for AC for over five years now. If I should be looking in the mirror so should you. Having worked at a major overseas for many years, AC is lagging tremendously. So yes, maybe we should both look in the mirror squirt.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by Diadem » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:29 pm

WestJet/Swoop/Flair/Whatever are able to crew their aircraft at whatever rates they're offering because pilots accept those rates. You guys make it sound like the airlines are unilaterally forcing wages down, and the pilots are just poor hapless victims in all this, but wages are low because pilots accept low wages. The fact is that there are too many pilots in Canada, and for some even the crap that Swoop and Flair offer are better than what they're getting now. It's not Shiny Jet Syndrome, it's that until very recently pilots had to take whatever work they could get or face being unemployed. Opportunities are opening up now, but there are still a ton of pilots working for companies like Georgian (well, maybe not anymore) and EVAS who would jump at the chance to go to Swoop. Obviously they'd rather go to AC, but since AC isn't calling they'll take what they can get. Until all those guys are gainfully employed and AC is struggling to find new recruits, what motivation is there for them to raise their wages?
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 am

Diadem wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:29 pm
WestJet/Swoop/Flair/Whatever are able to crew their aircraft at whatever rates they're offering because pilots accept those rates. You guys make it sound like the airlines are unilaterally forcing wages down, and the pilots are just poor hapless victims in all this, but wages are low because pilots accept low wages. The fact is that there are too many pilots in Canada, and for some even the crap that Swoop and Flair offer are better than what they're getting now. It's not Shiny Jet Syndrome, it's that until very recently pilots had to take whatever work they could get or face being unemployed. Opportunities are opening up now, but there are still a ton of pilots working for companies like Georgian (well, maybe not anymore) and EVAS who would jump at the chance to go to Swoop. Obviously they'd rather go to AC, but since AC isn't calling they'll take what they can get. Until all those guys are gainfully employed and AC is struggling to find new recruits, what motivation is there for them to raise their wages?
Unfortunately this is the case. In Canada, every pilot job is a “stepping stone” job, until you get to AC and every pilot wanting to get on with AC knows this by working at minimum their bonds out at company X before jumping ship to get that resume that will eventually get them their job at AC. Our options in Canada are very limited. Every airline in Canada knows this and therefor pay rock bottom wages because they know their pilots, after two to three years will bounce. The training costs go up and all of a sudden, the average pilot becomes expensive so to get a return on their investment, they pay super low. Why pay more then? If every airline could pay a living wage and actually offer a decent contract, then maybe pilots wouldn’t move around so much in order to get to AC. The problem is not that pilots willingly accept the low pay here-don’t get me wrong, most pilots complain and hate the wages that they work for. The problem is that, unfortunately, Swoop pay and the fact you get to fly a 737 pays more than Georgian, Evas, Porter and the like but not nearly enough as other tier 1 Canadian operators.

The US is a bit different. There are a lot more tier 1 airlines who compete for qualified pilots. The US airlines know this so they make more appealing offers to lure pilots in, where as in Canada they don’t nessesarily need to do that because they know our options are limited with AC, Westjet, AT or Sunwing. Of course, US pilots also fight hard to get their wawcon to where it is. Canadians are too polite to rough up management enough to get what they want. We really need to step it up.

Do you really think Swoop is paying just shy of $100 an hour for 737 captain because they think that the pilot will stay for their careers? Nope, it’s a stepping stone to AC or other tier one which is why they only have a three-five year payscale that they advertise. I would call this the “toothpaste tube effect”. Nickel and dime every last worth of the pilot at swoop before he moves on. Squeeze out their talent until they no longer can since the pilot jumps ship. Imagine if Southwest paid their captains this amount. Southwest will be screwed and the rest of US tier 1 carrier would gladly accept their pilots who would move over for a better paying job.
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Re: North America 737/320 Pay Round-up

Post by munzil » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:56 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:00 am
Diadem wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:29 pm
WestJet/Swoop/Flair/Whatever are able to crew their aircraft at whatever rates they're offering because pilots accept those rates. You guys make it sound like the airlines are unilaterally forcing wages down, and the pilots are just poor hapless victims in all this, but wages are low because pilots accept low wages. The fact is that there are too many pilots in Canada, and for some even the crap that Swoop and Flair offer are better than what they're getting now. It's not Shiny Jet Syndrome, it's that until very recently pilots had to take whatever work they could get or face being unemployed. Opportunities are opening up now, but there are still a ton of pilots working for companies like Georgian (well, maybe not anymore) and EVAS who would jump at the chance to go to Swoop. Obviously they'd rather go to AC, but since AC isn't calling they'll take what they can get. Until all those guys are gainfully employed and AC is struggling to find new recruits, what motivation is there for them to raise their wages?
Unfortunately this is the case. In Canada, every pilot job is a “stepping stone” job, until you get to AC and every pilot wanting to get on with AC knows this by working at minimum their bonds out at company X before jumping ship to get that resume that will eventually get them their job at AC. Our options in Canada are very limited. Every airline in Canada knows this and therefor pay rock bottom wages because they know their pilots, after two to three years will bounce. The training costs go up and all of a sudden, the average pilot becomes expensive so to get a return on their investment, they pay super low. Why pay more then? If every airline could pay a living wage and actually offer a decent contract, then maybe pilots wouldn’t move around so much in order to get to AC. The problem is not that pilots willingly accept the low pay here-don’t get me wrong, most pilots complain and hate the wages that they work for. The problem is that, unfortunately, Swoop pay and the fact you get to fly a 737 pays more than Georgian, Evas, Porter and the like but not nearly enough as other tier 1 Canadian operators.

The US is a bit different. There are a lot more tier 1 airlines who compete for qualified pilots. The US airlines know this so they make more appealing offers to lure pilots in, where as in Canada they don’t nessesarily need to do that because they know our options are limited with AC, Westjet, AT or Sunwing. Of course, US pilots also fight hard to get their wawcon to where it is. Canadians are too polite to rough up management enough to get what they want. We really need to step it up.

Do you really think Swoop is paying just shy of $100 an hour for 737 captain because they think that the pilot will stay for their careers? Nope, it’s a stepping stone to AC or other tier one which is why they only have a three-five year payscale that they advertise. I would call this the “toothpaste tube effect”. Nickel and dime every last worth of the pilot at swoop before he moves on. Squeeze out their talent until they no longer can since the pilot jumps ship. Imagine if Southwest paid their captains this amount. Southwest will be screwed and the rest of US tier 1 carrier would gladly accept their pilots who would move over for a better paying job.
Good analysis above. As someone also said earlier. It is not just one thing in Canada. I'll add to that and say it is a bit of everything.

Its the:
  • pilots accepting low wages
  • companies pushing to pay as little as they can get away with
  • small population and large landmass
  • robust position of AC and its abuse of the fact
  • Cost of the Winter here on operations
  • etc etc
The difficulty lies is that we can get too focused on just one of these for emotional reasons. All need to be tackled where we can, and some of them we can't do anything about.

The fact arises, there has never been a better time than now to push for better WACON and if we don't collectively get our shit together we will miss the opportunity to claw back what many of us have lost over the past 18 years.
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