Pilots who pay to fly

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think it's high time worldwide national aviation regulatory agencies, aviation organisations such as IATA and ICAO, national and International Unions, as well as international pilot organisations such as IFALPA, began to take a long hard look at airlines who adopted the practice of hiring pilots not on merit, qualifications, training or aptitudes but because the pilots paid the airline, a "flight school" or an agency to be hired.

I especially criticize the fact that the official accident reports about accidents in which one of the crew members had paid his/her way into the cockpit do not even mention that bit of information, as though it was irrelevant to the cause of the accident......

Often, an agency or "flight school" serves as a middle man in the transaction, and this is disguised as some form of training program in which the airline is involved with the training entity and where the line flying for the airline is portrayed as part of some advanced training program. Most often these are nothing but scams to milk the pilots of lots money while at the same time providing the airline with free or very cheap labor and no initial training costs.

[fish4life]

It's a very good point, I'd imagine it's a conflict of interest to fail a guy who is paying your company if he passes. Even more so in the area of the world where accountability takes a big back seat to who you are / how much money you have.

[YYZSaabGuy]

I especially criticize the fact that the official accident reports about accidents in which one of the crew members had paid his/her way into the cockpit does not even mention that bit of information, as though it was irrelevant to the cause of the accident......

Interesting. Just curious as to whether you are able to point to any official accident reports where this information wasn't disclosed and where the crew member's actions were cited as a direct cause of, or a contributing factor to, the accident?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Lion Air 904

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... PK-LKS.pdf

It was an Indonesian Airline. The SIC was hired as a low time 22 year old CPL rated pilot, who had obtained his CPL just one year before he was "hired" by LionAir. He was not even Indonesian, he was an Indian national, a foreigner.
He failed his initial ride, was passed months later on his second try even though was assessed as below standard. Finished his line training over one full year after being "hired".

But nowhere in the accident report does it mention he had purchased his right seat in that aircraft

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-s ... ramme.html

This thread claims they pay 50K Euro to get a 737 Type rating followed by a right seat at LionAir through a company called "EagleJet"

[timel]

I posted a video few months ago, unfortunately it is in French.
But for those who speak Français, it starts at min 00:47, it is about pilots who pay to work in Europe, very interesting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CHUvIRMGJGc

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I have not looked into it, but what was a low time French SIC doing in the cockpit of a Malaysian Air Asia A320? Don't the Malaysians have low time nationals ? The French SIC was hired at 850 hours TT, and it was his first ever flying job. He paid for all of his 850 hours out of pocket. I don't know if he paid to fly but if I was in charge of hiring pilots at Air Asia, I could certainly find better candidates for the right seat of an A320 than people with zero commercial flying experience..........

[timel]

That French SIC definitely brings questions. It could be one of those arrangements.

It is not only in Europe or Asia but in the USA as well.

http://www.eaglejet.net/Pricing.asp
http://www.tropicairpilotprogram.com/Home.html

I agree 100% with the approach, there is a conflict of interest that could be an issue on safety, law markers have to look into that.

[CanadianEh]

Having worked at a flight school that trained foreign students, I can attest to the lack of standards that exists. Especially when the school is being paid a lump sum to train the pilots and the examiners are in house. Instructors that tried to provide remedial training for a struggling student would get an earful about not sticking to the curriculum (because that's less money for the company!). As a result I saw many students "pushed through" who I would consider unfit to drive a car much less fly any kind of aircraft.

[Inverted2]

[photofly]

Ryan Air, and EasyJet: do they have lower safety standards?

Cadet programmes are very common in Europe. Like crooked teeth, body hair, and anal sex.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Lion Air 904

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... PK-LKS.pdf

It was an Indonesian Airline. The SIC was hired as a low time 22 year old CPL rated pilot, who had obtained his CPL just one year before he was "hired" by LionAir. He was not even Indonesian, he was an Indian national, a foreigner.
He failed his initial ride, was passed months later on his second try even though was assessed as below standard. Finished his line training over one full year after being "hired".

But nowhere in the accident report does it mention he had purchased his right seat in that aircraft

Ouch: that was brutal. Not to defend the F/O, and certainly not to defend pay to fly, but neither pilot covered himself in glory that day, including the Captain: failure in basic flying skills from both the guy who paid to fly and the guy who didn't.

[pelmet]

There has been a very, very long list of aircraft accidents in Indonesia over the last 15 or so years. We have seen a 737 doing a flaps 5 landing about 60 knots above ref speed to guys taking off without selecting flaps, to plenty of accidents after landing in storms. While I can see why you disagree with the pay to fly thing, this accident is just one of many. Based on a lot of the accident causes in this country, I'm not sure if the paid guys are performing any better than this particular fellow mentioned above.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/cou ... .php?id=PK

[Xander]

List of human priorities:

1. Show me da money.

2. End.

That's why pilots pay to fly, and will continue to do so for quite some time.

[Boreas]

The French SIC was hired at 850 hours TT, and it was his first ever flying job. He paid for all of his 850 hours out of pocket. I don't know if he paid to fly but if I was in charge of hiring pilots at Air Asia, I could certainly find better candidates for the right seat of an A320 than people with zero commercial flying experience..........

I wouldn't be surprized if he paid his way through the interview as well. I have it on a very good source that this happens at Garuda. Why would Air Asia be any different?

I remember one of my European copilots, about one year ago, telling me about his failed interview at Wiz Air: "I wish I knew the guy was taking bribes - I would have offered him whatever he wanted." I guess he didn't make the same mistake twice as he's now working for Wiz Air...

People will always try to get themselves ahead one way or another. Nobody is ever going to regulate that out of this and/or any other industry.

You're either a moral, self-respecting individual or you're not.

[Oxi]

http://avherald.com/h?article=44e48c2a/0000&opt=0

The CAA analysed: "It was important to find out the reasons of CRM failure which otherwise could have averted the accident. It was observed during the process of investigation that Captain of mishap aircraft was one of the instructional staff when FO was undergoing his initial flying training at PAF Academy as a cadet. Captain always remained a fatherly figure in the mind of the FO. Captain looked after the FO in SAI and later became a factor in his joining Bhoja Air. In Bhoja Air FO flew a total of 23 flights, 16 of which were flown with Captain. FO had an average flying experience and not undergone any simulator training of automated aircraft / flight deck management. That is why, FO kept on reminding the Captain and suggesting a go around to get out of unsafe / hazardous set of conditions after entering the severe weather, but remained reliant on Captain to take the required actions. The FO should have taken over the controls of aircraft to execute a go around once there was inadequate response / inaction by the Captain.

[digits_]

It's a very good point, I'd imagine it's a conflict of interest to fail a guy who is paying your company if he passes. Even more so in the area of the world where accountability takes a big back seat to who you are / how much money you have.

Isn't it always a conflict of interest when the company itself needs to determine if a pilot has the skills to fly ? Every time a pilot fails a checkride, it costs the company money, even more so when the guy is hired in a "normal" way and the company is paying for the training and tests. The pilot either needs more training and another test, or gets fired and a new guy needs to be hired. You could argue a pay2fly is better in this way, since a failed test doesn't cost the company anything (assuming the candidate paid for the training and tests, which is usually the case).


Funny how 850 hours TT is low hours to be an FO. It is quite common in Europe. New FO's have even less hours on average.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

There has been a very, very long list of aircraft accidents in Indonesia over the last 15 or so years. We have seen a 737 doing a flaps 5 landing about 60 knots above ref speed to guys taking off without selecting flaps, to plenty of accidents after landing in storms. While I can see why you disagree with the pay to fly thing, this accident is just one of many. Based on a lot of the accident causes in this country, I'm not sure if the paid guys are performing any better than this particular fellow mentioned above.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/cou ... .php?id=PK

Ok, I looked at another random LionAir Accident:

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... PK-LFH.pdf

First officer:
Age 24
Nationality: Indian
Flying experience : 1000 hours
Total on type 750 hours
Need I say more ?

[Old fella]

There has been a very, very long list of aircraft accidents in Indonesia over the last 15 or so years. We have seen a 737 doing a flaps 5 landing about 60 knots above ref speed to guys taking off without selecting flaps, to plenty of accidents after landing in storms. While I can see why you disagree with the pay to fly thing, this accident is just one of many. Based on a lot of the accident causes in this country, I'm not sure if the paid guys are performing any better than this particular fellow mentioned above.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/cou ... .php?id=PK

Ok, I looked at another random LionAir Accident:

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... PK-LFH.pdf

First officer:
Age 24
Nationality: Indian
Flying experience : 1000 hours
Total on type 750 hours
Need I say more ?

Nope, you don't have to. A former co-worker from years back(service provider) took an ICAO posting for a year to work in that neck of the woods(Indonesia). His view is expansion is very rapid with less than stellar infrastructure and many low time pilots whose aptitude is questionable and training is inadequate. He did indicate there is one airline that he would refuse to fly on, period

[pelmet]

There has been a very, very long list of aircraft accidents in Indonesia over the last 15 or so years. We have seen a 737 doing a flaps 5 landing about 60 knots above ref speed to guys taking off without selecting flaps, to plenty of accidents after landing in storms. While I can see why you disagree with the pay to fly thing, this accident is just one of many. Based on a lot of the accident causes in this country, I'm not sure if the paid guys are performing any better than this particular fellow mentioned above.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/cou ... .php?id=PK

Ok, I looked at another random LionAir Accident:

http://asndata.aviation-safety.net/repo ... PK-LFH.pdf

First officer:
Age 24
Nationality: Indian
Flying experience : 1000 hours
Total on type 750 hours
Need I say more ?

Your methodology for determining accidents is interesting. I thought I might go through some of the major international western accidents where reports have come out. We all heard about the Air France A330 over the south Atlantic. A group of pilots with the best flying conditions around. F/O pulled the aircraft into an extremely high nose up attitude in cruise. Speaking of AF, the decided to land in YYZ a few years back in a thunderstorm 4000 feet down the runway and didn't put any reverse on for a long time and went off the end of the runway. In fact AF has a long list of pilot error accidents in the last 20 years. American did almost the exact same in Kingston, Jamaica about three years ago.

UPS had some highly paid pilots who screwed up a VNAV approach and crashed in Alabama a couple of years back. Their competition FedEx has had a large number of accidents over the last decade due to pilot error. Best pay in the industry. Those Asiana pilots that couldn't fly a visual approach into SFO do not pay to fly.

The list goes on and on. RJ guys in the US taking off on the wrong runway, etc. But if these exact same guys had been pay to fly, you would be blaming the pay to fly as the reason, which of course it is not.

Of course the pay to fly guys as a percentage are much smaller. But from an accident investigation point of view, to automatically assume that someone who is paying to fly with 1,000 hours total is automatically worse than a guy who is being paid to fly is poor reasoning. A significant study would have to be done first.

Accident investigations shouldn't be corrupted by separate issues. Regardless of whether or not you opinion on the subject of pay to fly is right or wrong.

[timel]

An airline making profit on FOs back cannot be safety oriented.
You do things right or you don't.
Pay your employees, provide training, tools, a safe environment where you can perform and do good work. It is not some navajo ops in the jungle.

Hard to build a case, pilots who pay to fly don't make much noise about it.


Asia, we only see the top of the iceberg.