Sunwing captain passed out drunk in cockpit

[Rookie50]

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=112475

This is how it's should be.

accountable.

[monkey]

Alright, honest question. Is it not better to have the foreign pilot flying under our regulations and controlled by a Canadian operator? Is it not better to have the foreign pilot pass Canadian ground schools, ppc, line checks, etc by Canadian pilots ? They are coming one way or another, with wet lease there is much less control, no? I'm assuming reciprocity for Canadian pilots to work in the foreign pilots country.

[Dh8Classic]

I'm sure the EU regs are safe.

[GyvAir]

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=112475

This is how it's should be.

accountable.

I asked this question in pelmet's "Spot the drunk contest" thread, but nobody bit, so I'll ask/rephrase it here:

How does the resignation of two top level executives “as a gesture of responsibility” improve anything?
Did they have policies in place that somehow condoned showing up for work under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Did they know when they hired this pilot that he was likely to make a very bad series of choices such as he apparently did? Did they personally screen the pilot on his way into work that day?

Is it not the job of the executives to address problems and come up with solutions to make their companies better, going forward? Stepping down at the first sign of trouble like this doesn’t fix anything, nor does it add up.


If there is need for more people than one drunken (or ill) pilot to be held accountable, I think it’s the job of these very executives, or their delegates, to look at the ground level attitude and protocols that allowed this guy make it all the way to the cockpit in the shape he was in and take appropriate measures to correct them. There had to have been a dozen or more people that should have taken action to stop him, long before he was sitting in the cockpit that morning. I doubt the President Director or Operational Director were among those people present that morning.

Thoughts welcome.

[Rookie50]

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=112475

This is how it's should be.

accountable.

I asked this question in pelmet's "Spot the drunk contest" thread, but nobody bit, so I'll ask/rephrase it here:

How does the resignation of two top level executives “as a gesture of responsibility” improve anything?
Did they have policies in place that somehow condoned showing up for work under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Did they know when they hired this pilot that he was likely to make a very bad series of choices such as he apparently did? Did they personally screen the pilot on his way into work that day?

Is it not the job of the executives to address problems and come up with solutions to make their companies better, going forward? Stepping down at the first sign of trouble like this doesn’t fix anything, nor does it add up.


If there is need for more people than one drunken (or ill) pilot to be held accountable, I think it’s the job of these very executives, or their delegates, to look at the ground level attitude and protocols that allowed this guy make it all the way to the cockpit in the shape he was in and take appropriate measures to correct them. There had to have been a dozen or more people that should have taken action to stop him, long before he was sitting in the cockpit that morning. I doubt the President Director or Operational Director were among those people present that morning.

Thoughts welcome.

Honestly don't know. Every situation is different. Simply is refreshing to me to see executives ashamed of an outcome enough to resign. Unheard of here. Instead of accountability, companies place a spin on any bad behaviour. And it's far worse in Canada in this regard. I'm in the investment business, I analyse companies.

And it's no surprise Canada has had both no world class companies, and so many frauds and failures too. Because it's tolerated by cozy boards and protected from competition from mindless governments.
So you end up with arrogant poor service companies like Air Canada and Bell.

Air Canada knows they will get bailed out -- again -- if they ever fail -- again. Why change at the top?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles H. Please educate yourself on Canadian pilots working overseas. I know for a fact that that CDN pilots have worked ( and continue) overseas using their CDN lic and flying under the "other" countries registration. It is a simple process. Similar to Canada: The country in question applies to the local CAA and then the CAA approves a validation or a full ATPL license for that holder based on their home license. Be it ICAO,or FAA, or what have you. What you have said is completely false.

I have done extensive research on the matter and can even produce the relevant and specific regulations of many countries. And you ask that I educate myself ?
The European Union, Australia, and New Zealand allow a once in lifetime non renewable FLVC for 12 months. This to accomodate a foreign licenced pilot who permanetly moved into the country to make a living with his foreign licence while preparing his local licence. It is not used to allow the same foreign pilot to come and work six months out of the year, year after year with a foreign licence, as Transport Canada has been foreign licensed pilots to do in Canada.

The USA never allows foreign licences to fly US commercial aircraft, period.

[GyvAir]

I agree that it’s the North American business way, to throw someone at the bottom under the bus and protect one’s position and annual bonus at all costs, even if it was policies from the top down that caused the problem of the day.

In the case of an individual employee’s incredibly poor decision making leading to embarrassing the companies, as in the current Citilink and Sunwing incidents, that’s when it’s time for the executives to stand up and prove their leadership by proving they’ve corrected any deficiencies in the company structure, policies and culture that allowed those incidents to progress as far as they did. Maybe the corporate culture for appeasement over there in a case like this is such that many heads must roll, regardless, and stepping down was the easiest way out for them.

I’ve been around a number of times when people have shown up for work impaired, including a couple cases involving pilots. Nobody present in those two cases gave them any opportunity to get anywhere near the airplane. Things were nipped at briefing time, long before any planned departure. In both cases, the appropriate actions taken were limited to the individuals accountable: the ones who showed up for work impaired.

[Rookie50]

I agree that it’s the North American business way, to throw someone at the bottom under the bus and protect one’s position and annual bonus at all costs, even if it was policies from the top down that caused the problem of the day..

Can't improve on this.

[Mr. North]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/d ... -1.3919750

Random drug, alcohol testing suggested

One way to ease public concern would be to implement random drug testing for pilots, suggests Leon Cygman, chair of Mount Royal University's aviation program.

"It is a very important job, it's a very stressful job," says Cygman.

"There's a lot of responsibility so I think it's appropriate, in order to ease the public's mind, that pilots with that responsibility do have some random drug and alcohol screening."

Individual airlines or Transport Canada could implement a testing program for pilots says Cygman.

And so it begins... lets legislate out of fear!! To hell with the remaining 99.9999% of pilots who dutifully take to the skies each day, lets make everyone pee in a cup and blow before they release the park brake! Why bother investigating the terms that this foreign licensed pilot was working under? Who really cares about all the checks and balances in place to keep an unfit pilot from taking to the air. It's nothing but a bunch of boozy Denzel Washington's out there!!

Thanks CBC! Excellent, balanced coverage, as always!!

And yet we have pilots flying coast to coast DEAD TIRED. Still YEARS away from any action on that front but no one cares about that!!

[BCnomad]

Gilles H. Please educate yourself on Canadian pilots working overseas. I know for a fact that that CDN pilots have worked ( and continue) overseas using their CDN lic and flying under the "other" countries registration. It is a simple process. Similar to Canada: The country in question applies to the local CAA and then the CAA approves a validation or a full ATPL license for that holder based on their home license. Be it ICAO,or FAA, or what have you. What you have said is completely false.

I have done extensive research on the matter and can even produce the relevant and specific regulations of many countries. And you ask that I educate myself ?
The European Union, Australia, and New Zealand allow a once in lifetime non renewable FLVC for 12 months. This to accomodate a foreign licenced pilot who permanetly moved into the country to make a living with his foreign licence while preparing his local licence. It is not used to allow the same foreign pilot to come and work six months out of the year, year after year with a foreign licence, as Transport Canada has been foreign licensed pilots to do in Canada.

The USA never allows foreign licences to fly US commercial aircraft, period.

Excellent research. Explain then how I and other CDN pilots have been able to hold validations and full ATPLs in Europe x2 countries, India, Asia, Africa x 3 countries, Aruba, Eastern Europe... Oh and I have flown US registered aircraft as well - commercially.... for periods up to 3 years..... all under a CDN lic.

[Ypilot]

Gilles H. Please educate yourself on Canadian pilots working overseas. I know for a fact that that CDN pilots have worked ( and continue) overseas using their CDN lic and flying under the "other" countries registration. It is a simple process. Similar to Canada: The country in question applies to the local CAA and then the CAA approves a validation or a full ATPL license for that holder based on their home license. Be it ICAO,or FAA, or what have you. What you have said is completely false.

I have done extensive research on the matter and can even produce the relevant and specific regulations of many countries. And you ask that I educate myself ?
The European Union, Australia, and New Zealand allow a once in lifetime non renewable FLVC for 12 months. This to accomodate a foreign licenced pilot who permanetly moved into the country to make a living with his foreign licence while preparing his local licence. It is not used to allow the same foreign pilot to come and work six months out of the year, year after year with a foreign licence, as Transport Canada has been foreign licensed pilots to do in Canada.

The USA never allows foreign licences to fly US commercial aircraft, period.

Excellent research. Explain then how I and other CDN pilots have been able to hold validations and full ATPLs in Europe x2 countries, India, Asia, Africa x 3 countries, Aruba, Eastern Europe... Oh and I have flown US registered aircraft as well - commercially.... for periods up to 3 years..... all under a CDN lic.

When? 20 to 30 years ago?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Excellent research. Explain then how I and other CDN pilots have been able to hold validations and full ATPLs in Europe x2 countries, India, Asia, Africa x 3 countries, Aruba, Eastern Europe... Oh and I have flown US registered aircraft as well - commercially.... for periods up to 3 years..... all under a CDN lic.

I have flown a Haitian registered commercial aircraft for a Haitian airline with a US licence and didn't even need a FLVC. Does that make a point? Only that in some countries, anything goes. How does that compare to Canada and Transport Canada ?

As far as flying commercial EU registered aircraft under a EU OC with a Canadian licence, I do not believe it. I will need proof.
Unless oif curse it was many years ago.

Your nationality is irrelevent. It is the country where you are licenced that counts.
The place where the aircraft is registered is irrelevant. It is the country of the Operators OC thatr counts.
So you may just be playing with words.......

So unless you state that within the last 5 years, while holding a Canadian licence only, you were able to oerate a revenue flight operated by a EU airline uner the EU airlines's Operators Certificate with an EU issued FLVC, I call your bluff.

The US allows Foreign licensed pilots to fly US registered aircraft commercially as long as the US registered aircraft is operated by a non US company under a non US Opering Certificate. So, for example, my Canadian employer can temporarily dry-lease, a US registered aircraft, keep it US registered under CAR 203 (https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... u-2105.htm) , and I can fly it for my Canadian airline with a US issued FLVC.

You are a troll. Stop wasting our time here.

[AuxBatOn]

In terms of safety, how does, in this case, the pilot's licensing scheme would have made a difference? Is there some sort of screening I am unaware of for forecasting drunk flying?

In general, how does an FLVC make a pilot less safe than a full conversion?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

In terms of safety, how does, in this case, the pilot's licensing scheme would have made a difference? Is there some sort of screening I am unaware of for forecasting drunk flying?

In general, how does an FLVC make a pilot less safe than a full conversion?

You are asking the question as though someone had made that statement. Are you making it ?

[AuxBatOn]

You are using this incident to further your cause so you implicitly advance that this incident, therefore travel safety, is compromised by TFW and the FLVC process, so I repeat my question: in this case, would a full up licence conversion prevented this issue? If no, then you have no buisness bashing TFW in this thread.

[Spaceshuttle]

Do these pilots do a Canadian Medical which goes with a Canadian license?

That should answer your question about the difference in having a Canadian license versus a LVC in Canada. I assume you hold a Canadian Medical and therefore will recall the alcohol consumption question filed yearly.

[AuxBatOn]

Do these pilots do a Canadian Medical which goes with a Canadian license?

That should answer your question about the difference in having a Canadian license versus a LVC in Canada. I assume you hold a Canadian Medical and therefore will recall the alcohol consumption question filed yearly.

Because that question will prevent pilot from drinking and flying. Didn't that happen to some
AT pilots somewhat recently? I guess our canadian way of detecting alcoholism didn't work that time... but it would work on this guy...


Give you head a shake!

[BCnomad]

I have done extensive research on the matter and can even produce the relevant and specific regulations of many countries. And you ask that I educate myself ?
The European Union, Australia, and New Zealand allow a once in lifetime non renewable FLVC for 12 months. This to accomodate a foreign licenced pilot who permanetly moved into the country to make a living with his foreign licence while preparing his local licence. It is not used to allow the same foreign pilot to come and work six months out of the year, year after year with a foreign licence, as Transport Canada has been foreign licensed pilots to do in Canada.

The USA never allows foreign licences to fly US commercial aircraft, period.

Excellent research. Explain then how I and other CDN pilots have been able to hold validations and full ATPLs in Europe x2 countries, India, Asia, Africa x 3 countries, Aruba, Eastern Europe... Oh and I have flown US registered aircraft as well - commercially.... for periods up to 3 years..... all under a CDN lic.

When? 20 to 30 years ago?

Funny. How about as long ago as 2007 up until last year...

[BCnomad]

Excellent research. Explain then how I and other CDN pilots have been able to hold validations and full ATPLs in Europe x2 countries, India, Asia, Africa x 3 countries, Aruba, Eastern Europe... Oh and I have flown US registered aircraft as well - commercially.... for periods up to 3 years..... all under a CDN lic.

I have flown a Haitian registered commercial aircraft for a Haitian airline with a US licence and didn't even need a FLVC. Does that make a point? Only that in some countries, anything goes. How does that compare to Canada and Transport Canada ?

As far as flying commercial EU registered aircraft under a EU OC with a Canadian licence, I do not believe it. I will need proof.
Unless oif curse it was many years ago.

Your nationality is irrelevent. It is the country where you are licenced that counts.
The place where the aircraft is registered is irrelevant. It is the country of the Operators OC thatr counts.
So you may just be playing with words.......

So unless you state that within the last 5 years, while holding a Canadian licence only, you were able to oerate a revenue flight operated by a EU airline uner the EU airlines's Operators Certificate with an EU issued FLVC, I call your bluff.

The US allows Foreign licensed pilots to fly US registered aircraft commercially as long as the US registered aircraft is operated by a non US company under a non US Opering Certificate. So, for example, my Canadian employer can temporarily dry-lease, a US registered aircraft, keep it US registered under CAR 203 (https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... u-2105.htm) , and I can fly it for my Canadian airline with a US issued FLVC.

You are a troll. Stop wasting our time here.

Why is it that when someone gets upset and people challenge the tripe they spew they always have to resort to calling names... OMG I'm a troll.... ouch that hurt...
If a carrier wants you to fly for them and they need pilots - that carrier and the respective country will do what it takes to get it done. It is called Supply and Demand. It happens everywhere. Suck it up baby, the reality is that the corporations and the regulators will work together to create economic success. It happens in Europe, Asia, Eastern Europe, and Canada... Fact of life.

If you really want to make a difference in the CDN aviation, why don't you implement a min wage and max hours for pilots, negate the possibility that pilots will work for food, and or shelter. Stop corporations from getting pilots to work for absolutely nothing after they get their commercial license.

BTW this thread is about a pilot being drunk at the controls - the fact he is a foreigner on a work visa or speaks a different language is irrelevant. Are you giving as much effort on this subject about any Canadian pilots found intoxicated on a revenue flight??

[BCnomad]

You are using this incident to further your cause so you implicitly advance that this incident, therefore travel safety, is compromised by TFW and the FLVC process, so I repeat my question: in this case, would a full up licence conversion prevented this issue? If no, then you have no buisness bashing TFW in this thread.

Agreed