C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

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C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:26 am

CSeries Steep Approach testing at London City started this past week.
Runway 09-27 is 4948 feet (1508 meters) long and 98 feet (30 meters) wide. The aircraft can complete a 180 degree turn after the rollout. Amazing, by any standard.
As a proponent of C Series, it's a shame Porter won't be flying a CYTZ-EGLC anytime soon.
Maybe Air Canada from CYKF to London City? (wink, wink)

https://youtu.be/FW-9MJB1tq0

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by photofly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:54 am

CYTZ EGLC is 3101nm.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by jpilot77 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:17 am

Max range for the CS100 is 3100nm but the CS300 is 3300nm.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by photofly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:44 am

finger trouble...
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Last edited by photofly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by photofly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:45 am

IFR reserves? Headwinds? Maximum weight for departing CYTZ? What's a reasonable dispatchable range for this aircraft?
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Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:41 am

I don't know what the range IS.
I'm only aware of what the Bombardier advertising propaganda says. It says 3100nm for the CS100 at .78. They've also said the performance has been better than forecast since entry into service. I know they flew the Swiss CS100 from Tinkerbelle (CYMX) to Zurich (LSZH). I've heard the 300 can do Montreal - Rome.
London City has landing weight restrictions inside the CS100s max. landing weight so the 300 is likely to be too heavy for LCY ops.
Route planners could be drooling over this aeroplane as they examine potentially new city pairs and the hub relief it presents. For example, how difficult would it be for Air Canada to offer 100 or 130 seats out of Moncton or Fredericton to Europe with 120 ETOPS using the NAT tracks?
Crazy.

Declan Collier, CEO of the London City Airport, mentions C series is a recent press conference.
https://youtu.be/aEgATRd6yQg
... also
https://youtu.be/YkOSe7gZLPI

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by photofly » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:18 pm

CYTZ EGLC would be cool though. I could visit my brother - I'm 10 mins from CYTZ and he 's 15 from EGLC.
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by rxl » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:51 pm

As much as I like the C Series and think it's a great airplane, I've always wondered about the feasibility of operating it out of 5,000ft of extended runway 08-26 at YTZ with 110 or 120 on board and fuel to go to YVR or LAX like Porter had proposed ... but CYTZ - EGLC? WOW! If the C is capable of flights like that, then it's an even more phenomenal airplane than what I thought.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:23 pm

Well, when you only have to sell 125 seats ... you have a full aeroplane. Beats having to sell 250-350 seats. If Porter decides to take the C series, I suspect it would need an entirely new base of operation anyway and a totally new route structure just for the type.
Developing Barrie might be an option for PD. Oshawa? Kitchener? Hamilton?

Air Canada on the other hand, would likely see a bunch of entirely new city pairings and probably have to seriously reduce regional services.

Either way, as Bombardier said in their early advertising, this aeroplane IS a game changer.

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Wayans » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:40 am

Just to point out, after the steep approaches, the CS100 (I repeat, 100 - not 300) then proceeded to fly from EGLC to KJFK. A distance of *drum roll please* 3011NM. The distance between EGLC and CYTZ? 3090NM. Pretty close I'd say.

Here is the press release from Bombardier.

Note that they flew with a "representative payload".

If CYTZ can get the C-Series approved, then Porter will have a potentially very lucrative route.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by fish4life » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:38 am

Not to throw water in the fire but how would the CASM of a full c series compare to a 3/4 full wide body? If that is really close to the same then it would probably have a shot at doing more direct routing.

On a side note I think I saw somewhere about an operator doing a 60 pax all business configuration London City to JFK route with the C-series which could be an interesting model almost going after the old Concorde route type of passengers I'd imagine.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Mach1 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:03 am

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by FishermanIvan » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:36 pm

fish4life wrote:Not to throw water in the fire but how would the CASM of a full c series compare to a 3/4 full wide body? If that is really close to the same then it would probably have a shot at doing more direct routing.

On a side note I think I saw somewhere about an operator doing a 60 pax all business configuration London City to JFK route with the C-series which could be an interesting model almost going after the old Concorde route type of passengers I'd imagine.
British Airways does that with A318s. They stop in Shannon for gas going westbound to JFK though. If the CSeries can do it non-stop, that would be a game changer for that route.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by photofly » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:10 pm

Haven't they just given it up for lack of custom?
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by plhought » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:42 pm

BA Flight 1 still goes strong between London City and JFK.

Westbound as noted above you stop and get gas in Shannon. Also go through US Preclearance in Shannon.

Only 32 Seats on a 318.

If the C Series could do the flight consistently between London City and JFK westbound without stopping for gas, I wouldn't be surprised with a small C Series order from BA. Or perhaps a competitor service.

Still ain't Concorde though ;)
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:36 pm

The CS300 won't be licenced for London City. Just the 100 series. Anyone know why?
LCY has very limited ramp space and very strict arrival departure times. I suspect CSeries will see limited operations which could ultimately affect sales. Not necessarily increase sales.
It remains to be seen how BA reacts to C series even though they seem quite interested in the aeroplane.

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by FishermanIvan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:39 am

I think even the CS100 will be one of the bigger ones into LCY. It's E170s, Avro RJs and A318s right now, isn't it?
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:42 am

MONTREAL, QUEBEC--(Marketwired - Apr 26, 2017) -

Bombardier Commercial Aircraft announced today that Transport Canada and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) awarded the CS100 aircraft its steep approach certifications. The CS100 aircraft's capability to operate at challenging airports such as London City (LCY) Airport was validated by Bombardier's comprehensive flight test program. Swiss International Air Lines (SWISS) will be the first airline to operate the C Series at LCY Airport.

"The CS100 aircraft steep approach certification process went smoothly as the C Series is the only commercial aircraft specifically designed for operations at challenging airports," said Rob Dewar, Vice President, C Series Aircraft Program, Bombardier Commercial Aircraft. "The C Series has unparalleled capabilities no other aircraft in its category has - it will offer new possibilities for airlines wishing to operate at challenging airports around the world. The CS100 will also double the range that can be flown viably from LCY, opening new routes for airlines and passengers."

"The latest technology in aural and head-up display systems on-board the CS100 aircraft is used by the crew during the approach and landing phases of flight," added François Caza, Vice President, Product Development and Chief Engineer, Bombardier. "To be certified for operations at LCY, we had to show that the aircraft could perform at a greater approach angle, take-off and land on the airport's short runway and meet the local noise requirements. Our crew successfully demonstrated as expected, the CS100 aircraft's capability and maneuverability. The aircraft now joins our Q400 turboprop aircraft, as well as our Challenger 650, Global 5000 and Global 6000 business jets which already access this challenging airport regularly."

"The C Series is a game-changer for the only London airport actually in London, and it's fantastic news that one of the quietest and most fuel efficient commercial jets in its class has been granted regulatory approval. Bombardier's next generation aircraft will unlock new routes which passengers, both business and leisure, will benefit from, with opportunities for non-stop services to destinations including the east coast of the USA, Russia, West Africa and the Middle East," said Declan Collier, CEO of London City Airport. "Following the airport's planned £350 million expansion project we hope the C Series will become a familiar sight at London City Airport and I look forward to welcoming the maiden SWISS C Series flight later in 2017."

Successful validation flights at LCY Airport a few weeks ago, followed by a landmark direct flight from LCY to John F. Kennedy Airport demonstrated the CS100 aircraft's exceptional capabilities. This first direct transatlantic flight by a commercial aircraft from LCY Airport confirms the C Series' superior airfield performance and unparalleled flying autonomy from a short runway.

The CS100 aircraft is the most efficient and economical commercial aircraft. The C Series will allow airlines to viably offer direct intercontinental flights from LCY Airport to both North America as well as the Middle-East in addition to opening numerous new route opportunities within Europe, Russia and Northern Africa, which were not possible with previous-generation aircraft.

With the lowest noise and emissions levels of any commercial aircraft in its class, the C Series aircraft is ideal for urban operations and noise-sensitive airports. The CS100 aircraft has a much lower noise footprint compared to other commercial jets, and provides a better quality environment for London residents as it is the quietest commercial aircraft in production.

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by teacher » Wed May 03, 2017 12:18 pm

fish4life wrote:Not to throw water in the fire but how would the CASM of a full c series compare to a 3/4 full wide body? If that is really close to the same then it would probably have a shot at doing more direct routing.

On a side note I think I saw somewhere about an operator doing a 60 pax all business configuration London City to JFK route with the C-series which could be an interesting model almost going after the old Concorde route type of passengers I'd imagine.

AIR CANADA'S CS300S COULD ENABLE BROAD NETWORK CHANGES
Air Canada's CS300s could enable broad network changes

10 FEBRUARY, 2017 SOURCE: FLIGHTGLOBAL PRO BY: JON HEMMERDINGER TORONTO
Though Air Canada has described its incoming Bombardier CS300s as replacements for Embraer 190s, a top Air Canada executive has suggested the fleet plan could evolve.

Air Canada president of passenger airlines Benjamin Smith says the new Bombardier aircraft could prove as transformative as Boeing 787s, allowing Air Canada to make broader network changes.

During an interview with FlightGlobal at Toronto Pearson International airport on 9 February, Smith makes clear that Air Canada's plan calls for the CS300 to replace the E190.

"But that's assuming our network is static," he adds.

"This airplane is so good [that] we think it's going to want to go on every route in North America," Smith says of the CS300.

"The economics – it's got CASM rates that are equivalent to much larger airplanes. So it may enable us, or give us the opportunity, to rethink our bank structures, how our network is designed," he adds.

Air Canada has orders for 45 CS300s, with deliveries scheduled for between 2019 and 2022, according to Flight Fleets Analyzer. The 25 E190s scheduled for replacement are only about 10 years old, Fleets Analyzer shows.

"It's kind of like the 787," Smith says of the CSeries.

Air Canada initially ordered 787s as replacements for ageing Boeing 767s and Airbus A330s.

But the 787s proved so efficient on long-haul routes that Air Canada instead used them to launch a major international expansion, Smith says.

Air Canada ended up keeping the A330s in its mainline fleet, and transitioned the 767s to its newly-created low-cost subsidiary Rouge, Smith notes.

Thanks to the 787, Air Canada "rejiggered our entire network," Smith says. "If we can hit a similar home run with the CSeries, that would be amazing."

CSeries would be "perfect" for a route such as Vancouver to Boston, which "stretches the legs of the Airbus narrowbody", Smith says.

Or, Air Canada could potentially deploy CS300s from extreme-eastern Canadian cities to destinations in Europe, or from Vancouver to Hawaii, Smith says.

Smith says Air Canada remains confident Bombardier will meet its delivery schedule, downplaying the possibility that recent delivery delays could stretch into the coming years.

"We don't have a concern about the delivery schedule on the CSeries," Smith says. "We have a long history with Bombardier. We know their leadership extremely well."
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by fish4life » Wed May 03, 2017 12:59 pm

Also while we are on the C-series I wonder if they will make a business jet version of it. Add a belly tank for some serious range and it could probably prove to be a real competitor in that market.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by teacher » Fri May 05, 2017 5:08 am

I would like to see this but the development costs might put it out of reach unless foreign governments committed to the project ahead of time.

http://www.vanguardcanada.com/2016/01/2 ... ternative/
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by teacher » Fri May 05, 2017 9:01 am

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:07 am

It seems a lack of interest has overcome this thread so I thought I'd throw this update into the thread.

Airbus has increased the range of the A220 to 3900 nm. CYTZ to EGLC should now be a reality along with other European destinations.
Hang in there Bob.

Many on Avcanada have trashed the C Series (especially when C Series orders were cancelled) while singing the praises of Embraer and MRJs.

Well...

"Trans States Holdings has canceled an order for up to 100 Mitsubishi SpaceJet aircraft, in the latest setback facing the Japanese manufacturer’s long-delayed regional jet program.

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp. (MAC) announced Oct. 31 that Trans States Holdings—parent company of three US-based regional airlines—has terminated its contract for 50 firm orders of the SpaceJet M90, which included purchase options for 50 more. Mitsubishi said in a statement the decision was made because the larger M90 variant does not comply with union scope clauses, which limit regional aircraft to 76 seats and maximum takeoff weight to less than 39,000 kg. (86,000 lbs.)

While the 88-seat M90 does not comply with US regional carrier scope clauses, the 76-seat M100 does. MAC president Hisakazu Mizutani suggested in a statement that Trans States may consider replacing its canceled M90 order with an order for the M100, although he did not offer any details.

When the two companies signed the contract for the M90 in October 2009—back when the aircraft was branded as the MRJ70—they had expected that scope clause restrictions on the larger variant would eventually be loosened, a prediction that has so far failed to materialize.

“When we established our contract with [Trans States Holdings], the outlook on the regional market was very different. Scope clause has not relaxed as anticipated,” Mizutani said. “We have since shifted our strategy to be responsive to the market realities in the US, in partnership with our airline customers.”

Trans States’ termination of the contract leaves Utah-based regional carrier SkyWest Airlines as the only US-based airline with an outstanding order for the M90. Arizona-based Mesa Airlines, meanwhile, placed an order for 50 M100 aircraft, with purchase options for 50 more, at the Regional Airlines Association annual conference in early October, becoming the only carrier to date to place an order for the smaller SpaceJet variant.

Trans States Holdings is the parent company of Trans States Airlines, Compass Airlines and GoJet Airlines. The parent company did not immediately respond to a request for comment."

-Air Transport World

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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Sharklasers » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:00 am

What’s your point? The M90 order wasn’t cancelled because it was a bad airplane, it’s because the US pilot unions won’t buckle on scope. The A220 won’t fit their scope clauses either. The New E175 won’t fly for US regionals either as it is too heavy to meet the standard scope clauses.
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Re: C Series lands at EGLC. Toronto Island loses out. Again.

Post by Gino Under » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:18 pm

Obviously you’ve missed the point.
Cancelled because “union scope clauses didn’t change as anticipated”. And they aren’t gonna.

At no point did I say the MRJ or E90 were bad aeroplanes that the regionals don’t want. Many regionals would love to have the A220. But, many here did say the C Series was an aeroplane that no airline wanted. Well, HA!

People here said in essence the C Series was shite and nobody wanted it as evidenced by the lack of C Series sales at the time (currently standing at over 550 sales). They even said Air Canada was forced to buy the C Series due to politics. Never mind whether it will or won’t fly off the island.
(that remains to be seen)

I’ve said all along Embraer and Mitsubishi were beyond scope. The A220 was never marketed to replace RJs at regionals. It was designed to kill regionals. Mitsubishi just acknowledged the scope reality. Their MRJ is out of scope (because the mainline pilots will never cave on it). The Delta pilots already know the A220 suits every regional sector on the Delta network and Air Canada soon will as well.

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