Flair buys Newleaf

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goingnowherefast
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by goingnowherefast »

Does anybody know the pay scale at Flair?

How does that compare to companies without a regional pilot feeder; Sunwing and Transat? How about AC and WJ?
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mbav8r
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by mbav8r »

leftoftrack wrote:I'm pretty sure first year pay at sky regional is more than JAZZ.
It is NOW, any guesses why that is? But, they don't have a pay scale beyond three years, so any guesses as to how tenure looks to the bean counters when they look at Jazz vs Sky?
We still have a lot of pilots in both seats with better than 10 years seniority and a lot of top scale pilots, makes us expensive compared to 75/hr captains, that's ok as long as they can pay their mortgage who cares if the ones who are laid off as a result can't, right?
How about you answer the question? Maybe you don't want to face the reality you're screwing other pilots over.
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Black_Tusk
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by Black_Tusk »

leftoftrack wrote:
So as long as you have a quick route to the large jet, screw the damage it does by accepting less than industry standard wages, lowering the bar. The reason that the wages are lower at Jazz now is because pilots like you accepted lower wages at Encore, SR and GGN, thanks for that!
Don't worry, if WJ has its way, the ULCC they are starting will no doubt match Flair wages and you can choose which one you want to screw the rest of us with.
It's his responsibility to make sure you earn more money? in what world is it his responsibility to ensure that you make more money? If you dont like the money you earn, look at yourself. If he refuses the job he works at so you make more money does that mean your going to pay his mortgage and bills?
You're the problem in this industry. Pilots are the worst when it comes to only looking out for themselves and throwing anyone and whoever under the bus to gain even a small advantage.
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Mr. North
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by Mr. North »

Black Tusk and all going on about "lowering the bar" need to give their head a shake. What some people consider to be lowering the bar is in fact a raise or promotion for someone else. Do I wish we were all paid more? Yes. But I'm not about to tar and feather some poor chap who's trying to better his lot in life. And neither should any of you for that matter. Nothing will change the fact that if there is a good flying job, someone will take it. Just because it doesn't fit your level of self worth doesn't mean it's not a step up for someone else. No sense losing sleep over it. This nit picking on our peers has got to stop. It makes absolutely no sense why someone would pass up a good job and suffer in silence for "the betterment of the industry". Get real.

The pilots who discredit their peers for taking positions below their "standards" are only alienating themselves.

Grow up.
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OPS
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by OPS »

Why does it seem most threads end up about Jazz, or it's pilots complaining about something or other? Do they not have a sub forum and private forum they can vent on? They don't seem to paint themselves very professional IMO. They accepted by vote lower wages, no one else is to blame, and it's in the past. Accept it, learn from it, and move on.

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I think this is good news for the industry. We already see the effect AC and WS do on the routes operated by New Leaf/ Flair. Good to have some competition. Good to have another airline out hiring more Canadians. This isn't the 90s or 2000s where pilots were a dime a dozen. Wages can only be suppressed so much in this environment. Even as a ULCC, and WS ULCC to come, they will have to provide some competitive wage or other carrot to attract crews and staff to work for them. With the price of oil forecast to stay down for the foreseeable future, airline profits will continue, lessening the need to cut wages. This isn't rocket science.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by goingnowherefast »

We get it, Jazz lowered their new hire pay (1.5 years ago), devalued their employees, controversy, people pissed off. This is a Flair thread.

Nobody has answered the pay question at Flair. What does their pay scale look like? How does it compare? Before we bash them and drag them to the same level as the regional airlines, lets see some actual numbers.
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cost.index777
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by cost.index777 »

I interviewed a while back, and ended up not taking it. Spoke with a friend who is there and here are the highlights.

55k-83k FO across 10 years based on min credit 80
93k-150k CA across 10 years based on min credit 80
10% of annual salary top up for Training Captains
3/hr Per Diems
10 days off, 5 of which are changeable, but aimed to change with the union in place.
2 weeks Vacation plus Stat for year 1-3. Gets better afterwards. Which means you don't get paid for stat, but you get 11 extra days off in your holidays.
OT above 80 at 1.5 the rate
RRSP matching up to 5%
6 month probation
Bases are YEG, YYC, YHM, YXX, YLW
Air Transat Flying, New Leaf Flying, Oil Sands Flying, ADHOC Charter flying around the world.

Seems like moral is always on a teeter totter, sometimes high, some times low.
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leftoftrack
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by leftoftrack »

That's better than JAZZ Encore Sky or Georgian isn't it?
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mbav8r
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by mbav8r »

Um, not better than Jazz. Everything mentioned is lacking compared to Jazz and while I was surprised the pay was higher than I thought, a Jazz pilot at the top makes 120-130k plus pension, a 37 Captain should start around 120 and top out 180 or so.
There's a reason all this work is coming their way, cheap labour, that's it. All the Suncor pilots out of work because pilots like you think it ok, as long as it's to pay your mortgage, keep thinking that way and eventually pilots won't qualify for a mortgage of any kind.
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by atphat »

mbav8r wrote:All the Suncor pilots out of work because pilots like you think it ok, as long as it's to pay your mortgage, keep thinking that way and eventually pilots won't qualify for a mortgage of any kind.
Just said it in another thread but I'll say it again. People who blame other people for taking jobs are pathetic. You think you're better than this guy cause you work at Jazz?? Lol
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mbav8r
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by mbav8r »

atphat wrote:
mbav8r wrote:All the Suncor pilots out of work because pilots like you think it ok, as long as it's to pay your mortgage, keep thinking that way and eventually pilots won't qualify for a mortgage of any kind.
Just said it in another thread but I'll say it again. People who blame other people for taking jobs are pathetic. You think you're better than this guy cause you work at Jazz?? Lol
I didn't say I was better than anyone, I have said that I turned down jobs that were under paid and overworked while I was out of work as a pilot. As desperate as I was to stop driving a truck and fly again, I refused to apply at Keystone and other operations, I turned down a Citation X job because the pay was terrible and you were expected to be on call 27 days a month, if that makes me pathetic, so be it.
I'll ask you the same question here as the other thread.
If someone walked in and said to your boss, they would do your job for 30% less and you're out of work because they accept, you ok with that?
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flyinhigh
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by flyinhigh »

atphat wrote:
mbav8r wrote:All the Suncor pilots out of work because pilots like you think it ok, as long as it's to pay your mortgage, keep thinking that way and eventually pilots won't qualify for a mortgage of any kind.
Pretty sure all those pilots found jobs, flying those same aircraft for Flair.
mbav8r wrote:There's a reason all this work is coming their way, cheap labour, that's it.
So Jazz is the reason skyservice went under than. They were the cheapest 57 operator out there and took the work.

Long story short, everyone's needs are different. My mortgage is super cheap due to my life style which means I don't need 120k (yes, it's nice to have though). Now someone that lives down town Vancouver will require that 120k as there choice in life style is waaay more costly than myself.

Who am I to call anyone out in there choices that they make. There choices will affect themselves in the future and they will learn. Just because someone doesn't work in the AC/Jazz world does not make them a douche.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by flyinhigh »

mbav8r wrote:All the Suncor pilots out of work because pilots like you think it ok, as long as it's to pay your mortgage, keep thinking that way and eventually pilots won't qualify for a mortgage of any kind.
Pretty sure all those pilots found jobs, flying those same aircraft for Flair.
mbav8r wrote:There's a reason all this work is coming their way, cheap labour, that's it.
So Jazz is the reason skyservice went under than. They were the cheapest 57 operator out there and took the work.

Long story short, everyone's needs are different. My mortgage is super cheap due to my life style which means I don't need 120k (yes, it's nice to have though). Now someone that lives down town Vancouver will require that 120k as there choice in life style is waaay more costly than myself.

Who am I to call anyone out in there choices that they make. There choices will affect themselves in the future and they will learn. Just because someone doesn't work in the AC/Jazz world does not make them a douche.
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telex
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by telex »

Pretty sure all those pilots found jobs, flying those same aircraft for Flair.
You have your oil companies confused.
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mbav8r
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by mbav8r »

flyinhigh wrote:
Pretty sure all those pilots found jobs, flying those same aircraft for Flair.
Did those pilots keep their pay or a 30% reduction, were the captains still captains?
Who fucking cares they found jobs, point is they lost their jobs and are now doing the same work for less.



So Jazz is the reason skyservice went under than. They were the cheapest 57 operator out there and took the work.
Seriously, how many times does status pay have to be explained to people, seriously!
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Diadem
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by Diadem »

WestJet took a lot of that Suncor flying too. Does that make them scabs?

The laws of supply and demand state that if someone can provide the same service/product for less than the competition, then the customer will go with them and the competition will go out of business. The same applies to labour: if there are more jobs than there are applicants, those willing to work for less will be employed, and if pilot labour becomes scarce, Flair will have to raise wages to attract more. It's not pilots accepting low wages who are to blame, it's market forces; pilots accepting low wages are symptoms of over-supply. This is fundamentally how the economy has always worked, and no one owes anything to those employed in a different company. Why don't you get mad at Walmart employees for taking those jobs while other stores like Sobeys are struggling? Businesses don't exist to provide high-paying jobs to workers, as much as we would like them to, and if they can't stay afloat in a competitive environment then they need to restructure or go extinct.
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FICU
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by FICU »

Flair put the Shell flight department on the street. Westjet put the Suncor flight department on the street.
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Re: Flair buys Newleaf

Post by mbav8r »

FICU wrote:Flair put the Shell flight department on the street. Westjet put the Suncor flight department on the street.
I stand corrected, not sure how WJ was able to save them money, is some or most of the work provided by Encore?
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