Does flow control really work?

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PostmasterGeneral
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Does flow control really work?

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Looking at some of the busier airports we all operate into, YYZ, YUL, YVR, YYC, I’ve noticed that flow delays can often creep up into several hours long, holding on the ground away from base before being allowed to return. I understand it that slot times are put in place to space out arrivals and prevent a whole heap of planes arriving at once. Often times however, doesn’t this just end up prolonging the inevitable? Those delays cascade into the later flights that the now delayed crews have to operate, and it seems to make things much worse. There has to be a better way?
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porcsord
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by porcsord »

The thing I find odd about flow, is that some people think that Vancouver is a busy airport.
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Legacy
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Legacy »

Hence when was the last time you seen flow INTO yvr? The only time I ever see it is when it's down to cat2
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

Yvr has flow all the time. Especially if you’re island hopping to Victoria or Nanaimo back and forth.

When the flowmeister isn’t on shift, they still do ridiculous crossing times, followed immediately by “best forward speed” as soon as you cross it
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altiplano
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by altiplano »

Flow times seem to correspond with long weekends.

Beautiful yesterday in YYZ and wheels up time issued more than an hour past sked... got to YYZ and it was dead on the radio... hardly flow worthy.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by rookiepilot »

One wonders how a truly busy ACC like NY Approach handles it.

Not looked it up but wouldn't shock me if the movements for the 4 major NY area airports combined, approached the total for Canada's 4 busiest airports, but all 4 in a confined area. Know from flying in that area GA, no time or tolerance for chit chat. 8)
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Legacy
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Legacy »

The problem is our controls Manops restricts then from operating like the states. LGA wont have flow. They'll just just cancel your flight!
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altiplano
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by altiplano »

Maybe they need to change the Manops...
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PositiveRate27
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by PositiveRate27 »

Legacy wrote:Hence when was the last time you seen flow INTO yvr? The only time I ever see it is when it's down to cat2

It's been all day, every day since the beginning of summer.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by JeppsOnFire »

Ground delay due to Flow Control. Then speed restricted inbound. Then a hold. Then best forward speed to the numbers with just 3 other TCAS targets.

Works great.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Zaibatsu »

Short staffed. It’s chronic and it’s only going to get worse. Sure, Vancouver isn’t a busy airport, but lots of days you only have one arrival frequency, north tower is also running north ground, south ground is doing clearance delivery, and south tower is also handing all of the VFR float traffic off the river.

Flow sucks. Maybe we should go to a system that wastes taxpayers money like the American socialist ATC.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Cat Driver »

Maybe we should go to a system that wastes taxpayers money like the American socialist ATC.
Well from my experience with ATC the American ATC is far better.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by rookiepilot »

Cat Driver wrote:
Maybe we should go to a system that wastes taxpayers money like the American socialist ATC.
Well from my experience with ATC the American ATC is far better.
Maybe the New York ACC is smart enough to fire people who have the habit of taking sick time on every nice weather day.
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leftoftrack
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by leftoftrack »

Cause everything is better when sick people show up to work. That never goes bad
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Cat Driver
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Cat Driver »

Well from my experience with ATC the American ATC is far better.
Not to mention Eurocontrol being better and they have very complex airspace with lots of very busy big airports in a far smaller space than Canada has.
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Rockie
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Rockie »

ATC in the US is far worse because they push our capabilities to the limit and beyond (if you let them get away with it) due to the massive amount of traffic that they have to deal with. I've also spent 3 hours on the ground off gate in YYZ on several occasions waiting for a release to go to LGA. That's flow control in case anybody is confused about that. European ATC also has their issues, but the Brits...now there's a class act. Rules are different though I suspect.

The OP question should be answered by an ATC poster though since flow control is a measure designed to meet their capabilities and needs, not ours. Does it work? Ask them...
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icewa
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by icewa »

If flow works, it should be calm on the radio, everyone is following the STARs and SIDs, spaced out for arrivals and departure, no holds or holds mitigated with speed and time control.

If flow doesn't work, then it's busy with lots of vectors and holding stacks.

No one system is better than the other. They all work in their own way. Although Canada and EU have more modern systems compared to US.

Overall I think flow works pretty well. Saves fuel, no holds and no diverting.
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Rockie
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Re: Does flow control really work?

Post by Rockie »

icewa wrote:Overall I think flow works pretty well. Saves fuel, no holds and no diverting
Completely agree. I would rather be sitting off gate at departure airport waiting for a wheels up time than holding in a terminal area running out of gas then diverting to an alternate.
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