Georgian Upgrades

[xlwing]

I've had a good long career, with a couple jobs better than others, but I don't regret anything, and frankly not everyone is in a mad race to work for an airline. I've worked in nearly all the facets of aviation, minus military, all over the world, and much appreciate the experiences I've received. Good on the younglings in having an accelerated career path. I don't deny that their opportunity is fortunate. If someone is dead-set on working for an airline, than that's a fortunate path. However, not everyone wants that path, and more importantly, there are MUCH better jobs out there. I considered Canadian airlines at one point, but chose not to pursue it, as I had better opportunities elsewhere in the private sector (flying "airliners" no less). But to each their own.

There's certain individuals on here that only come to defend GGN. The amount of voracity in their posts can only indicate that they have a particular agenda; HR, management (current or ex)... The methods of interdiction within their rhetoric could be psychologically analyzed as basic defence mechanisms:

Compensation: Counter balancing weaknesses with perceived strengths in other areas
Rationalization: Changing the reality of the situation to reflect in one's desired perceptions
Denial: Refusal to accept reality
etc...

In running this show, they are creating a mask in which they wish to deflect the spotlight on them and in turn bash those that try presenting a platform of change or discussion. Do not silence opposition by cutting their tongue, (or calling them jealous...come on, get off the high horse), but rather lets discuss improvements. As a human being, not just a pilot, I want what everybody wants, which is safety. As a business, companies want money. Can there not be a common ground without jeopardizing either or both? I'm not here to bash. I'm just one who's noticing nothing but a downward trend in the data; a degradation in industry-wide standards. Not to say there haven't been improvements in other areas. If GGN's policy is to silence those who question their operation, then I'm sorry, but they have something to hide. Sorry for calling a spade a spade. I fully realize me writing ANY comments here is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, so I don't know why I even bother. Robots will be flying our planes in the future and THAT will make this all moot

+1
well spoken!

Or perhaps this individual really cares about the direction of our industry and is frustrated about its current situation.

Georgian has had a mentor program since 2000 - why complain now? I suspect he is more upset that he did not have the opportunity these cadets do....I think that is his actual issue with the industry

Because they have taken away flying from a great operator by whoring themselves out at a ludicrous cost.

I think the concern with the mentor program is that low-time f/o's aren't actually "mentored" but rather released as fully-fledged line pilots off the bat without any oversight (with exception to the odd additional sim). I believe pre 2014, low-time pilots had to fly solely with training captains, but now they fly with any captain leaving regular line captains as flight instructors, whether they like it or not, and without any training on it. I think the term "mentor program" means, "low-time pilot hiring program" hahaha

[gtanorth]

I've had a good long career, with a couple jobs better than others, but I don't regret anything, and frankly not everyone is in a mad race to work for an airline. I've worked in nearly all the facets of aviation, minus military, all over the world, and much appreciate the experiences I've received. Good on the younglings in having an accelerated career path. I don't deny that their opportunity is fortunate. If someone is dead-set on working for an airline, than that's a fortunate path. However, not everyone wants that path, and more importantly, there are MUCH better jobs out there. I considered Canadian airlines at one point, but chose not to pursue it, as I had better opportunities elsewhere in the private sector (flying "airliners" no less). But to each their own.

There's certain individuals on here that only come to defend GGN. The amount of voracity in their posts can only indicate that they have a particular agenda; HR, management (current or ex)... The methods of interdiction within their rhetoric could be psychologically analyzed as basic defence mechanisms:

Compensation: Counter balancing weaknesses with perceived strengths in other areas
Rationalization: Changing the reality of the situation to reflect in one's desired perceptions
Denial: Refusal to accept reality
etc...

In running this show, they are creating a mask in which they wish to deflect the spotlight on them and in turn bash those that try presenting a platform of change or discussion. Do not silence opposition by cutting their tongue, (or calling them jealous...come on, get off the high horse), but rather lets discuss improvements. As a human being, not just a pilot, I want what everybody wants, which is safety. As a business, companies want money. Can there not be a common ground without jeopardizing either or both? I'm not here to bash. I'm just one who's noticing nothing but a downward trend in the data; a degradation in industry-wide standards. Not to say there haven't been improvements in other areas. If GGN's policy is to silence those who question their operation, then I'm sorry, but they have something to hide. Sorry for calling a spade a spade. I fully realize me writing ANY comments here is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, so I don't know why I even bother. Robots will be flying our planes in the future and THAT will make this all moot

+1
well spoken!

Georgian has had a mentor program since 2000 - why complain now? I suspect he is more upset that he did not have the opportunity these cadets do....I think that is his actual issue with the industry

Because they have taken away flying from a great operator by whoring themselves out at a ludicrous cost.

I think the concern with the mentor program is that low-time f/o's aren't actually "mentored" but rather released as fully-fledged line pilots off the bat without any oversight (with exception to the odd additional sim). I believe pre 2014, low-time pilots had to fly solely with training captains, but now they fly with any captain leaving regular line captains as flight instructors, whether they like it or not, and without any training on it. I think the term "mentor program" means, "low-time pilot hiring program" hahaha

I think that would be a very narrow view of what the mentor program involves BUT to be clear GGN does have a low time pilot entry program as well as part of their SOAR program which is also different than the new and old cadet program. Maybe they should post on their website what goes into the mentor program. Again, my point is that Georgian is one of many operators that are doing this and they were one of the first to do it and after 17 successful years of the program I find it very odd that it is questioned now.

[gtanorth]

Or perhaps this individual really cares about the direction of our industry and is frustrated about its current situation.

Georgian has had a mentor program since 2000 - why complain now? I suspect he is more upset that he did not have the opportunity these cadets do....I think that is his actual issue with the industry

Because they have taken away flying from a great operator by whoring themselves out at a ludicrous cost.

Isn't that what mainline says about Jazz and Encore about Link and GGN about Evas for that matter.....

[aerie]

@OP
I appreciate you saying that you did not come here to bash, however, I think you can see why a few of us may be frustrated with the way conversation has been going in this thread.
Your initial inquiry was:

So I'm hearing Georgian is now upgrading their inexperienced cadets to Captain at only 1500h and no ATPL??!! WTF is wrong with this industry, and most importantly, us? I have family and friends that fly on those planes, and now it's gotten to the point that I'm legitimately getting concerned for their safety. At least before there were standards for experience, but now they're just throwing anyone in the seats? This s#!@ has to stop! Someone please tell me this rumour is false

When really, it should have been:

I've heard from a friend that Air Georgian is now upgrading cadets to Captain at 1500 hours without an ATPL, does anyone know if this is true?

You reacted to hearsay before fact, which, if we're being honest, is how it goes on the internet. That I can understand. The frustration comes in when others respond to you, and you either don't acknowledge it or refuse to believe it. You asked a completely valid question and the community responded to you:

I can assure you safety is not affected. I know these pilots personally and would feel fine in the back with them at the controls. There is a shortage coming, I think your going to see quicker upgrades in the future. To call them inexperienced and unsafe is out of line. We all need to have some respect for each other in this industry.

I’m one of the upgrades on the RJ. I've got 4,000 TT with ATPL (TC & FAA) plus CPL Helicopter. Georgian is not fooling around. Rest assure that your friends and family are in good hands. You read all kind of stuff here.

The upgrade on the RJ is 3500TT and 500 on type.

Jazz has had 1700tt captains on the classic and q from the jazz cadet programs. It's just the nature of the industry right now. I'm not a ggn defender by any means but just my 2 cents.

I genuinely want to believe that your issue is with the cadet program model, we may agree on some things there. However, if that's the case and you don't mean to bash, why single out Air Georgian?
This page alone lists 42 cadet programs available around the world, and it is by no means a complete list.

Also, your responses to the other community members were dismissive of their experience/opinion, and with the amount of conjecture in your later posts I don't see how your initial inquiry could be construed as anything but "bashing". Why have you chosen to respond to the more emotionally charged posts rather than the ones saying, "I work at this company and I assure you, the operation is safe"?

You stated that anyone that comes to defend Air Georgian has "a particular agenda" or is responding due to some kind of defence mechanism. Does that mean you immediately discount any post that may provide insight into Air Georgian? Do you think that is a fair position to take? Are you actually asking the community to respond to the rumour you heard or just the members that agree with you?

There are so many experienced, respected and knowledgeable aviators on this forum. I ask that you listen to them before spreading hearsay as fact.

[infiniteregulus]

Thank you for the response aerie.

You're correct in that my initial post was somewhat emotionally charged, mainly out of shock from what I had heard. I also wasn't clear in my delivery as I clumped the RJ and Beech under one umbrella when I was really referring to the Beech operation specifically. There were a number of replies, all of which are valid but specific to the RJ only, in comparison to the cadet program which is Beech specific. It's my understanding that there are no direct cadets onto the RJ, only the 1900.

My initial concern was with the upgrade itself, per the subject title. I'm aware of many of the cadet programs throughout the world, and it's a fact of life and nature of the beast, but I feel as though the dynamics of their implementation are vastly different than what is being offered on the 1900 at GGN. Mr Miyagi + Daniel-san = effective mentorship. Daniel-san + Daniel-san = bad/lacking mentorship. It's an inevitable compounding issue. Excuse the extrapolation, but who's to say 10 years from now, there won't be 1000h Captains or 500h Captains? Companies change and laws change. Is the road we are travelling not leading to this outcome? I looked back and the minimum was 2700h, then 2500h, then 2300h, now 1500h. This is a trend. That's 55% of the requirements as of several years ago. At that point, the mentorship would have 500h Captains teaching 200h FOs? At what point do we draw a line in the sand? One could ask if this is any of my concern. From a business stand point, no it is not, and that is for companies to decide and lobby. From a passenger and profession stand point however, yes it is. It is that aspect to which I present this post and question the the line in the sand for command upgrade minimum without ATPL and minimal experience.

Hearsay is disallowed in court for the purpose of conviction, however, for the matter of bringing up conversation, isn't all thought a form of hearsay? How can information be distributed if it isn't heard than said? I know I'm arguing semantics, but the effort is to derive truth and the development of awareness. If all one gets is a one-sided, censored opinion, then we may as well live in North Korea haha.

Regarding the few defenders, I completely understand your point, however their history speaks volumes and I can't overlook what has happened on these forums. There's been many ggn threads deleted and erased from existence, and the same names pop up every time, so my reluctance on believing those individuals is somewhat ingrained. Maybe I need a better hobby if I've spending so much time reading and remembering all the posts ever written on here! lol

In the end, you're all right in that this is the way things are headed, so I may as well give in and conform. I'm trying to engage the other side of the coin; the side of the profession. The implementation of cadet programs are company derived and driven, but never is it queried or looked upon for approval of the pilot group. Business-wise, I understand pilots have little input as they are employees, but from a quality of output as professionals, is it not our responsibility to deliver? Perhaps this draws back to that college of pilots.

[gtanorth]

Thank you for the response aerie.

You're correct in that my initial post was somewhat emotionally charged, mainly out of shock from what I had heard. I also wasn't clear in my delivery as I clumped the RJ and Beech under one umbrella when I was really referring to the Beech operation specifically. There were a number of replies, all of which are valid but specific to the RJ only, in comparison to the cadet program which is Beech specific. It's my understanding that there are no direct cadets onto the RJ, only the 1900.

My initial concern was with the upgrade itself, per the subject title. I'm aware of many of the cadet programs throughout the world, and it's a fact of life and nature of the beast, but I feel as though the dynamics of their implementation are vastly different than what is being offered on the 1900 at GGN. Mr Miyagi + Daniel-san = effective mentorship. Daniel-san + Daniel-san = bad/lacking mentorship. It's an inevitable compounding issue. Excuse the extrapolation, but who's to say 10 years from now, there won't be 1000h Captains or 500h Captains? Companies change and laws change. Is the road we are travelling not leading to this outcome? I looked back and the minimum was 2700h, then 2500h, then 2300h, now 1500h. This is a trend. That's 55% of the requirements as of several years ago. At that point, the mentorship would have 500h Captains teaching 200h FOs? At what point do we draw a line in the sand? One could ask if this is any of my concern. From a business stand point, no it is not, and that is for companies to decide and lobby. From a passenger and profession stand point however, yes it is. It is that aspect to which I present this post and question the the line in the sand for command upgrade minimum without ATPL and minimal experience.

Hearsay is disallowed in court for the purpose of conviction, however, for the matter of bringing up conversation, isn't all thought a form of hearsay? How can information be distributed if it isn't heard than said? I know I'm arguing semantics, but the effort is to derive truth and the development of awareness. If all one gets is a one-sided, censored opinion, then we may as well live in North Korea haha.

Regarding the few defenders, I completely understand your point, however their history speaks volumes and I can't overlook what has happened on these forums. There's been many ggn threads deleted and erased from existence, and the same names pop up every time, so my reluctance on believing those individuals is somewhat ingrained. Maybe I need a better hobby if I've spending so much time reading and remembering all the posts ever written on here! lol

In the end, you're all right in that this is the way things are headed, so I may as well give in and conform. I'm trying to engage the other side of the coin; the side of the profession. The implementation of cadet programs are company derived and driven, but never is it queried or looked upon for approval of the pilot group. Business-wise, I understand pilots have little input as they are employees, but from a quality of output as professionals, is it not our responsibility to deliver? Perhaps this draws back to that college of pilots.

I still call bs.. your logic is that you pick on the company that has been doing this for almost 20 years with several dozen past mentored pilots now enjoying life at AC and other large carriers instead of posting about mentor and cadet programs in general?? I would think you would have said .... other than Georgian and Jazz who have both done this successfully who else ... I suspect you saw this as just another opportunity to bash Georgian and you jumped on your keyboard.

[skytrucker]

Oh I'm well aware about other airlines and you're right, I avoid those airlines as well if I can, however, there's a difference in that they operate 705, have resources to support a cadet program, and are much more regulated and monitored. And I'm quite content with my career. Thank you for the ridiculous speculation. I'm not even going to entertain 90% of your comments as you are a questionable entity who's sole purpose on Avcanada is the biased defence of Georgian. I'm frankly just tired of talking with you, both here and previous threads, cause it's like talking to a parrot or a brick wall.

I have been reading your posts and you nailed it bud. Now you mention 705 it's time to talk CRJ. 250 hour F'O's paired with expedited Captains. What happens when you have 2 inexperienced pilots, a plane that has more MEL's than McDonalds has fries, bad weather and fatigue? How many CERTIFIED AME are currently at YYZ base? Mentor programs can be a good thing as long as the training is done correctly and you have already touched on the viable points, and my 2 cents is that the CRJ training needs improvement. It wont' be long until most all of the experienced pilots leave the CRJ for other companies. What does it say when most don't bother to give notice? GGN can try to get people to drink the Skydrol , but even the Skydrol leaks. I will expect this thread to be yanked anytime so I will wish the Crusaders a Merry Christmas. Maybe they can divvy up their big fat bonus checks, hire some more AME's and buy me a lounge pass.

[805ITT]

I would go back to the counter at McDs because you are clearly not getting enough fries