Professionalism

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confusedalot
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Re: Professionalism

Post by confusedalot » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:10 pm

I would settle for looking ''normal''

Got to Tims for a coffee, they all look professional and normal
Go to the tire place, they all look professional and normal, even if they are in dirty overalls because, guess what, it is normal to be in dirty overalls.
Go to the bank, professional and normal.
Go to a restaurant, professional and normal.
And on and on and on and on.


No, I am sad to say that some pilots, and I was one (looking normal), at times appear to act like slobs. Unattractive behavior indeed.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by HansDietrich » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:11 am

infiniteregulus wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:21 pm
Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks :lol:
Okay there Captain Keen... You've got the right stuff to be middle management at a regional carrier.

While we're on the topic of "Professional", let's see some things we need to address:
- 40K a year salary "professional"
- airplanes that rattle, stink and are 30 year old "professional"
- DH crews without pay "professional"
- Making pilots wear latex gloves to peal gum off the seats "professional"
- Taking away their pension "professional"

Do I need to go on? Start paying me and treating me as a "professional", then I'm going to give a crap about wearing headphones and putting my feet up.

Listen to this guy... Christ almighty, I puked in my own mouth when I read your post.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by momnosam7 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:04 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:11 am
infiniteregulus wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:21 pm
Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks :lol:
Okay there Captain Keen... You've got the right stuff to be middle management at a regional carrier.

While we're on the topic of "Professional", let's see some things we need to address:
- 40K a year salary "professional"
- airplanes that rattle, stink and are 30 year old "professional"
- DH crews without pay "professional"
- Making pilots wear latex gloves to peal gum off the seats "professional"
- Taking away their pension "professional"

Do I need to go on? Start paying me and treating me as a "professional", then I'm going to give a crap about wearing headphones and putting my feet up.

Listen to this guy... Christ almighty, I puked in my own mouth when I read your post.

Wow - you seem to be in the wrong profession. Are you this miserable about the rest of your life? Wait - don't answer ----- I can guess.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by dogfood » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:39 am

This thread is hillarious.. poor old guys trying to hang on to the aviation from the past. Being a pilot is like a minimum wage job I never gave a crap how my uniform looked stocking shelves at the grocery store and I didn't when I took the pay cut for my first aviation job. If you want professionalism pay me more than the guy that pours me my coffee from Tim's
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Re: Professionalism

Post by av8ts » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:40 am

complexintentions wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:59 pm
While working for minimum wage, you can absolutely be professional and look professional, but you would probably not care as much about appearances if the guy next door does the same job for 50% more money for example.
What a pathetic commentary.

I equate professionalism heavily with self-respect. I've done many jobs prior to aviation and always believed it was important to do them to the best of my ability regardless of the perceived status of the job or the level of compensation. And I've done some pretty damn menial jobs. Always show up on time, show respect for the position of the person in charge (even if the actual PERSON is an asshat), dress appropriately to the job, and do it to the maximum level of competence.

And it's not difficult to do because I'm doing all that for myself, not for the employer. Certainly, they benefit from my efforts, but that's not why I do it. I'd just feel shitty about myself if I gave less than my best effort. That goes for every aspect of the job including dress and deportment. Funnily enough, this attitude and approach has led to positions of ever-increasing responsibility and compensation.

That's why I feel sorry for the poor losers who claim their excuse for not bothering to iron a shirt or whatever is that their company disrespects them by not paying them what they feel they "deserve". I've heard several variations on the same theme in this thread. Perhaps it's generational - Walmart was mentioned, I find that if I go there and there's some elderly gent working as "only" a greeter, he's still in a neatly pressed shirt and pants, and unfailingly polite and solicitous. And I'm pretty sure he's not making as much as some of the skygod rockstars here.

Bottom line, do or think whatever the hell you want, but...how can you expect your employer (or anyone, really) to respect you if you don't respect yourself, and display that fact so blatantly to the world? :mrgreen:
+1. Nailed it
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Re: Professionalism

Post by av8ts » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:43 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:11 am
infiniteregulus wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:21 pm
Anyone else start noticing a trend in uniformed crew wearing big unsightly music headphones at the gates while waiting for their flights (operating or commuting) with feet up in the air like some a punk. It looks TERRIBLE! And don't get me started on the bright red backpacks :lol:
Okay there Captain Keen... You've got the right stuff to be middle management at a regional carrier.

While we're on the topic of "Professional", let's see some things we need to address:
- 40K a year salary "professional"
- airplanes that rattle, stink and are 30 year old "professional"
- DH crews without pay "professional"
- Making pilots wear latex gloves to peal gum off the seats "professional"
- Taking away their pension "professional"

Do I need to go on? Start paying me and treating me as a "professional", then I'm going to give a crap about wearing headphones and putting my feet up.

Listen to this guy... Christ almighty, I puked in my own mouth when I read your post.
This says so much about you. See complexintentions post above. He got it right
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Re: Professionalism

Post by complexintentions » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:48 am

dogfood wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:39 am
This thread is hillarious.. poor old guys trying to hang on to the aviation from the past. Being a pilot is like a minimum wage job I never gave a crap how my uniform looked stocking shelves at the grocery store and I didn't when I took the pay cut for my first aviation job. If you want professionalism pay me more than the guy that pours me my coffee from Tim's
Another one doomed to remain stuck in victim mode. Not sure I can see how looking like a slob helps further your cause for a pay rise? Some interesting logic there!

You just don't get it. It's got nothing to do with past, present, or future. You may not be able to get the pay or the aircraft or whatever thing du jour you think you're entitled to. You can't control that. That's just numbers and luck. But your attitude, conduct, and appearance - guess what, those are under your control. Not airy-fairy philosophizing, just a fact.

Hence, you lose respect from pretty much everyone when you demonstrate you don't give a shit about any of those. Don't care? That's fine. Just don't ask us to care that you can't seem to get more than an entry-level job! :mrgreen:
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Re: Professionalism

Post by digits_ » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 am

complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:48 am


Another one doomed to remain stuck in victim mode. Not sure I can see how looking like a slob helps further your cause for a pay rise? Some interesting logic there!
How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?
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Re: Professionalism

Post by tbayav8er » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:18 am

I can see the point of view from both sides here for sure. However, personally, I agree with the fact that you should try to look as professional as possible, especially when in sight of the travelling public. I don't see any issue with wearing headphones and relaxing in a seat in the corner of an empty boarding lounge, especially if you have a 3-4 hour sit somewhere. Most people are great about keeping their uniform in a presentable state, but it does drive me nuts when I see people wearing shirts/blazers that are badly wrinkled, not clean etc. As others have said, it's not about how much your current employer is paying you, what your current WAWCON is like, etc....It's something that takes zero talent, but can make a difference in first impressions for people who see you from day to day.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by complexintentions » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 am

How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.

Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.

But hey I also said do whatever you want. Just don't be surprised that no one gives a flying f$ck if you're unable to get ahead because you look like well, you don't give a flying f$ck! :mrgreen:
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Re: Professionalism

Post by Loner » Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:57 am

It’s all about self-pride, self respect/esteem
Not based on pay-cheque nor professionalism
End of day, you chose how you want to be seen and your reputation will follow
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Re: Professionalism

Post by momnosam7 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:00 am

complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
digits_ wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 am

How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.

Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.

But hey I also said do whatever you want. Just don't be surprised that no one gives a flying f$ck if you're unable to get ahead because you look like well, you don't give a flying f$ck! :mrgreen:
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
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Re: Professionalism

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:58 am

momnosam7 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:00 am
complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
digits_ wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:05 am

How would dressing nice get you a pay riase? You're all on union contracts, on which only seniority matters. I've yet to see a "dress nice" clause that would give you a pay raise. Some interesting logic there!

I'm curious: to all the guys who say that pay is irrelevant to dress "like a professional", where on they pay scale are you guys at? Junior FO, Senior CPT?
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.

Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.

But hey I also said do whatever you want. Just don't be surprised that no one gives a flying f$ck if you're unable to get ahead because you look like well, you don't give a flying f$ck! :mrgreen:
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
So much wrong with your Fox News'esque post, you haven't got a clue.

I agree sporting a set of oversized Dre's while loitering around the counter, bugging the agents, with an untucked, un-ironed shirt is the surefire sign someone needed a little more polishing before being released into public.

Perhaps pilots are streaming too fast through the system nowadays with less checks and balances - less respect for their position - and no one has called them on it in person.

But, this is not a generational thing, this is individually based. I've seen a lot of young professional pilots in my travels (airline and private), and I have yet to see one do as per the OP.

Keep your 'factually' based generational rant for your kids at Easter.

S.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by digits_ » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:59 am

complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.
Okay, so you said that looking like a slob doesn't help your cause for a pay raise. And dressing nice will not get you a pay raise. Conclusion: the way you dress is irrelevant to get a pay raise. Then why did you bring it up?

I'd also like to clarify that it is perfectly possible to understand, even agree with someone, without doing the exact same thing yourself. I would not go to work with a dirty shirt at an airline, or hang around the lounge with my feet up the chairs or whatever. I do, however, understand why other people do it.
complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.
Ok, you were a waiter. Did the other waiters in the area make 40% (or whatever significant number it is) more than you?
Also, your pay was directly dependending on how you looked (tips). It's not the exact same situation.

Or did the senior waiters vote to put you, the new guy, on a lesser pay scale so you can make more money, and then complaint that you aren't as motivated as they are? Things like A and B scales are extremely demotivating to the people on the lowest scale. If their disapprovement manifests itself in these little acts of disobedience or resistance, I can understand. And it would be much more preferred if they get rid of their frustration this way, instead of letting it affect their actions in the cockpit. That's actually a very professional attitude: to know where you can safely "rebel" and where you shouldn't.

Another question: if you (or the other pristine uniform supporters) were flying freight in the middle of the night. Would you still walk around with a pristine uniform? After all, it is all about self-pride and self-respect, right?
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
Maybe other people are secure enough in their abilities to do their job, that they do not care so much about their appearance or what people think of them, or "self-pride". Just because you need the validation of a pristine uniform to keep the old "catch-me-if-you-can" glory days going, doesn't mean other people need the same affirmation. I'd fly in jeans and a t shirt if they let me. (but note that I don't)
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Last edited by digits_ on Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Professionalism

Post by momnosam7 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:02 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:59 am
complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
Gsus you're a bit thick. No one said dressing nice will get you a pay raise, only that looking like a careless slob certainly isn't going to help you get ahead either, so why not carry yourself like the professional you want to be considered? What's with always trying to do the bare minimum possible? Such a loser mentality. Not everything is decided by seniority, not even in the People's Republic of Canuckistan. Kind of one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions, they reward lowest-common-denoniminator mediocrity like yours for just hanging around. Ugh.
Okay, so you said that looking like a slob doesn't help your cause for a pay raise. And dressing nice will not get you a pay raise. Conclusion: the way you dress is irrelevant to get a pay raise. Then why did you bring it up?

I'd also like to clarify that it is perfectly possible to understand, even agree with someone, without doing the exact same thing yourself. I would not go to work with a dirty shirt at an airline, or hang around the lounge with my feet up the chairs or whatever. I do, however, understand why other people do it.
complexintentions wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:25 am
Pay scale? The whole point is - it shouldn't matter. I'm a (senior?) captain, but I applied the same standards when I was a waiter in my teens. Different pay scale then, I can tell you.
Ok, you were a waiter. Did the other waiters in the area make 40% (or whatever significant number it is) more than you?
Also, your pay was directly dependending on how you looked (tips). It's not the exact same situation.

Another question: if you (or the other pristine uniform supporters) were flying freight in the middle of the night. Would you still walk around with a pristine uniform? After all, it is all about self-pride and self-respect, right?
Dont waste your time adding logic and mature thinking to these children. We all know who they are - they are the kids who got participation medals, earned a D finalist trophy in peewee hockey that he still has on his moms shelf, he quit before bantam because it was too hard but his mom told him that was OK. Teachers were not allowed to fail him and no one has ever told him that he was wrong, or held him accountable for anything. The attitudes of these young "pilots" is simply disgusting and a disgrace to our profession. OH OH now he's off to cry to mommy
Maybe other people are secure enough in their abilities to do their job, that they do not care so much about their appearance or what people think of them, or "self-pride". Just because you need the validation of a pristine uniform to keep the old "catch-me-if-you-can" glory days going, doesn't mean other people need the same affirmation. I'd fly in jeans and a t shirt if they let me. (but note that I don't)

Please leave our profession.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by digits_ » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:15 pm

momnosam7 wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:02 pm
Please leave our profession.
Oh no. Someone on the internet has a different opinion than me. This makes me feel insecure. He should leave our profession! :rolleyes:
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Re: Professionalism

Post by eyebrow737 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:29 pm

Image
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Re: Professionalism

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:57 pm

The truck drivers have the same complaints that airplane drivers have, here is a post from a truck driver forum.
No one to blame but greedy truck owners and companies. You have paid peanuts for so long, cut each other’s throats on rates so you can get the load and pull it for pennies of profit per mile, and treated drivers not much better than slave labour.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:51 pm

I was referring to the shoppers of Walmart, not the employees :(

I think if someone has such a vendetta against their employer that they feel the need to "professionally rebel" by method of wrinkly shirts, I think they need a life hahaha.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by Stu Pidasso » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:40 pm

Rightseatdriver wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:02 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:44 pm
digits_ wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:32 pm


Or all those westjet pilots grooming the planes :twisted:
+1

You can't get more unprofessional looking than a pilot wearing blue latex gloves taking snotty tissues out of a seat back.
Absolutely correct. The other day I flew as a pax on an encore flight and by the time we had landed, taxied into the gate and waited to deplane, the co pilot already had his latex gloves on waiting to go to work. I honestly felt embarrassed for him. It's not a good look. Atleast wait till the plane deboards if you want to be that eager. You're a pilot, not a janitor.
If he doesn't drop to his knees to pick up gum wrappers, the Cookie Pusher will write him up as a "Bad Groomer." He (or She) will be immediately sent to Re-Programming for an intervenous injection of KoolAid.

Thank the pr#cks ahead of you that thought this kiss @ss manouver was a good plan!
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Re: Professionalism

Post by mixturerich » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:00 pm

flyzam wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:33 pm
The airlines get what they pay for.
If you made this comment with the intention of starting a shitstorm, it’s definitely worked, and I applaude you. :lol:
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Re: Professionalism

Post by dogfood » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm

This isn't the old days anymore..pilots are just bus drivers that get paid less. There is nothing prestige about this career anymore if you need to prance around all high and mighty to make yourself feel better about your career choice go ahead but don't get pissed of that others dont. Come on.. if I gotta wait in a terminal for 3 hours I'm going put on my head phones and watch a movie what is the problem with that. If you would rather listen to that crying baby and tell your self over and over again how superior from everyone else you are because your a pilot go ahead.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by AvifiskAlly » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:16 pm

dogfood wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm
This isn't the old days anymore..pilots are just bus drivers that get paid less. There is nothing prestige about this career anymore if you need to prance around all high and mighty to make yourself feel better about your career choice go ahead but don't get pissed of that others dont. Come on.. if I gotta wait in a terminal for 3 hours I'm going put on my head phones and watch a movie what is the problem with that. If you would rather listen to that crying baby and tell your self over and over again how superior from everyone else you are because your a pilot go ahead.
That is not at all logical. Why would any profession need uniforms? How about we all just wear jeans, how about police, military, Tim’s workers, bus drivers. It’s a uniform wear it with respect. If you didn’t want to wear a uniform why did you get into this end of the industry. Maybe you should be flying in the Bush.
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Re: Professionalism

Post by infiniteregulus » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:20 pm

dogfood wrote:
Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:10 pm
This isn't the old days anymore..pilots are just bus drivers that get paid less. There is nothing prestige about this career anymore if you need to prance around all high and mighty to make yourself feel better about your career choice go ahead but don't get pissed of that others dont. Come on.. if I gotta wait in a terminal for 3 hours I'm going put on my head phones and watch a movie what is the problem with that. If you would rather listen to that crying baby and tell your self over and over again how superior from everyone else you are because your a pilot go ahead.
Or just be an actual bus driver. Sounds like you'd be happier
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Re: Professionalism

Post by Cat Driver » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:21 pm

Or just be an actual bus driver. Sounds like you'd be happier
Not to mention better off financially.

Far better working hours.

Far less bureaucratic B.S. to put up with.

And you can plan your home life and leisure time.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

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